Bulls @ Jazz 8pm CT Mar. 17 2025

[drosestruts]

Detroit went from a 14 win season to a 45/46 win season (which is what they're on pace to do). Part of that's the vets, but part of that's the young players too. Cade became an all-star, Duran improved, etc. They also should get Ivey back and he did well until he got injured. They can build on this no matter what happens in the playoffs.

Orlando started the season strong, but fell off due to injuries. They can build off their playoff experience too.

New Orleans has had a bad season and they'll most likely get a top five pick to add to their roster. In the off season they can figure out what to change with their roster and they have assets/room to make a few moves. They can also decide what to do with Zion (who is playing well right now).

In the case of all three teams the Bulls don't have any players with the same potential as Cade, Paolo and Zion. It's debatable that Giddey or Coby even have the potential to be an all-star (and I like both players). It's why I continue to say the Bulls need more talent on their roster and why it's important to do well in the draft.

Player A: 25 points on 46/35/86 shooting splits. 56% TS%. 2:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player B: 17 points on 48/41/83 shooting splits. 59% TS%. 2.3:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 22% USG

Player C: 25 points on 44/32/72 shooting splits. 54% TS%. 1.6:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player D: 19 points on 44/35/90 shooting splits. 58% TS%. 1.9:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 24% USG

Player E: 24 points on 56/23/65 shooting splits. 60% TS%. 1.7:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 35% USG

Amongst these 5 players you feel there's 3 players worth building around and 2 players who aren't on the same level?

I like Cade and Zion. In full transparency I'm a bit of a Banchero hater. I think his all-star nod was totally underserved. He puts up big numbers on terrible efficiency (shouldn't be too hard for you to guess who he is above).

When it comes to Cade - I actually think he's a pretty similar player to who he was last year. Harris helps. Beasley having a career year helps.

Stats don't tell the whole story and you know that. Nobody would take a player like Coby over Cade. Cade right now is leading the Pistons to 47 wins (he's the #1 player on that team no matter how you try to spin it).

Banchero on the other hand has had to deal with injuries this year. I'm mixed on him, but he's also a player that everyone would take over Coby.

Why are they being compared?

And yes I didn't mention Zion, but teams would take him over Coby too (even with Zion's injury concerns).

Coby doesn't have the upside the other three do and I'm sure I'm not alone thinking that.

I'm comparing them because I don't think the gap is big, or even existent in the case of Banchero, between some of our guys and some of these young franchise cornerstones that were brought up.

I didn't try to spin Cade not being their #1 player. I just don't think Cade is the reason they've gone from 14 wins to 40 wins. Cade's production is pretty similar year over year.

One thing I do think Detroit has done well is building a team around Cade. Whatever you think the ceiling of a team built around Cade is can be a different conversation. But when was the last time the Bulls actually built around somebody?

How good could Giddey look on a team built around him? Purposefully designed to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

You can even ask the same question for Coby.

Instead we play Vuc and Williams 30 minutes a night.

[Dan Z]

Player A: 25 points on 46/35/86 shooting splits. 56% TS%. 2:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player B: 17 points on 48/41/83 shooting splits. 59% TS%. 2.3:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 22% USG

Player C: 25 points on 44/32/72 shooting splits. 54% TS%. 1.6:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player D: 19 points on 44/35/90 shooting splits. 58% TS%. 1.9:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 24% USG

Player E: 24 points on 56/23/65 shooting splits. 60% TS%. 1.7:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 35% USG

Amongst these 5 players you feel there's 3 players worth building around and 2 players who aren't on the same level?

I like Cade and Zion. In full transparency I'm a bit of a Banchero hater. I think his all-star nod was totally underserved. He puts up big numbers on terrible efficiency (shouldn't be too hard for you to guess who he is above).

When it comes to Cade - I actually think he's a pretty similar player to who he was last year. Harris helps. Beasley having a career year helps.

Stats don't tell the whole story and you know that. Nobody would take a player like Coby over Cade. Cade right now is leading the Pistons to 47 wins (he's the #1 player on that team no matter how you try to spin it).

Banchero on the other hand has had to deal with injuries this year. I'm mixed on him, but he's also a player that everyone would take over Coby.

Why are they being compared?

And yes I didn't mention Zion, but teams would take him over Coby too (even with Zion's injury concerns).

Coby doesn't have the upside the other three do and I'm sure I'm not alone thinking that.

I'm comparing them because I don't think the gap is big, or even existent in the case of Banchero, between some of our guys and some of these young franchise cornerstones that were brought up.

I didn't try to spin Cade not being their #1 player. I just don't think Cade is the reason they've gone from 14 wins to 40 wins. Cade's production is pretty similar year over year.

One thing I do think Detroit has done well is building a team around Cade. Whatever you think the ceiling of a team built around Cade is can be a different conversation. But when was the last time the Bulls actually built around somebody?

How good could Giddey look on a team built around him? Purposefully designed to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

You can even ask the same question for Coby.

Instead we play Vuc and Williams 30 minutes a night.

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

[drosestruts]

Stats don't tell the whole story and you know that. Nobody would take a player like Coby over Cade. Cade right now is leading the Pistons to 47 wins (he's the #1 player on that team no matter how you try to spin it).

Banchero on the other hand has had to deal with injuries this year. I'm mixed on him, but he's also a player that everyone would take over Coby.

Why are they being compared?

And yes I didn't mention Zion, but teams would take him over Coby too (even with Zion's injury concerns).

Coby doesn't have the upside the other three do and I'm sure I'm not alone thinking that.

I'm comparing them because I don't think the gap is big, or even existent in the case of Banchero, between some of our guys and some of these young franchise cornerstones that were brought up.

I didn't try to spin Cade not being their #1 player. I just don't think Cade is the reason they've gone from 14 wins to 40 wins. Cade's production is pretty similar year over year.

One thing I do think Detroit has done well is building a team around Cade. Whatever you think the ceiling of a team built around Cade is can be a different conversation. But when was the last time the Bulls actually built around somebody?

How good could Giddey look on a team built around him? Purposefully designed to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

You can even ask the same question for Coby.

Instead we play Vuc and Williams 30 minutes a night.

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

[Dan Z]

I'm comparing them because I don't think the gap is big, or even existent in the case of Banchero, between some of our guys and some of these young franchise cornerstones that were brought up.

I didn't try to spin Cade not being their #1 player. I just don't think Cade is the reason they've gone from 14 wins to 40 wins. Cade's production is pretty similar year over year.

One thing I do think Detroit has done well is building a team around Cade. Whatever you think the ceiling of a team built around Cade is can be a different conversation. But when was the last time the Bulls actually built around somebody?

How good could Giddey look on a team built around him? Purposefully designed to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

You can even ask the same question for Coby.

Instead we play Vuc and Williams 30 minutes a night.

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

If Giddey and Coby are so great then why are the Bulls on pace to win around 34 games this season?

[cocktailswith_2short]

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

If Giddey and Coby are so great then why are the Bulls on pace to win around 34 games this season?

Well that's because half the season was lost, being held hostage by Zach.

[Jcool0]

I'm comparing them because I don't think the gap is big, or even existent in the case of Banchero, between some of our guys and some of these young franchise cornerstones that were brought up.

I didn't try to spin Cade not being their #1 player. I just don't think Cade is the reason they've gone from 14 wins to 40 wins. Cade's production is pretty similar year over year.

One thing I do think Detroit has done well is building a team around Cade. Whatever you think the ceiling of a team built around Cade is can be a different conversation. But when was the last time the Bulls actually built around somebody?

How good could Giddey look on a team built around him? Purposefully designed to accentuate his strengths and mitigate his weaknesses.

You can even ask the same question for Coby.

Instead we play Vuc and Williams 30 minutes a night.

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

FWIW Coby is 48th in clutch FGA & Giddey is 111th.

[drosestruts]

I have my doubts that a team built around Giddey or Coby would be better than one built around Cade, Zion or Banchero.

If the game was on the line which player would you trust with the ball in their hands? Giddey, Coby, Cade, Zion or Banchero? My guess is if I made a poll then Giddey would be last and Coby would probably be 2nd to last.

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

If Giddey and Coby are so great then why are the Bulls on pace to win around 34 games this season?

This is a great and fair question.

I think both Coby and Giddey had bad/slow starts to the season.

Giddey we know left the Olympics with an injury and I always wondered how that affected him early on.

I have fewer hypotheses about why Coby started so poorly.

In general with the Bulls there always seems to be a lot of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The team has long been very stubborn with its lineups and rotations.

Vuc is bad. Williams is bad. These are two of our highest minutes played players on the team.

Can a good player overcome a bad team? You pointed out previously that Cunningham and the Piston only won 15 games last year ,a player you label as a franchise cornerstone. Which would seem to indicate good players can be on teams with bad records.

Does anyone think Devin Booker and Kevin Durant aren't good due to the struggles of the Suns?

It's overly simplistic to look at the Bulls record and use that to make the conclusion that Coby and Giddey aren't good enough to be part of a successful future.

Our post all-star record suggest we're closer to a .500 team. Would Giddey and Coby leading a team with a flawed roster to a .500 record impress you more?

[Dan Z]

Clutch time FG% per NBA dot com

Cunningham - 35.1%

Coby White - 50%

Josh Giddey - 36.4%

Banchero - 47.6%

Zion - 55.6%

Your poll would likely be wrong then.

If Giddey and Coby are so great then why are the Bulls on pace to win around 34 games this season?

This is a great and fair question.

I think both Coby and Giddey had bad/slow starts to the season.

Giddey we know left the Olympics with an injury and I always wondered how that affected him early on.

I have fewer hypotheses about why Coby started so poorly.

In general with the Bulls there always seems to be a lot of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The team has long been very stubborn with its lineups and rotations.

Vuc is bad. Williams is bad. These are two of our highest minutes played players on the team.

Can a good player overcome a bad team? You pointed out previously that Cunningham and the Piston only won 15 games last year ,a player you label as a franchise cornerstone. Which would seem to indicate good players can be on teams with bad records.

Does anyone think Devin Booker and Kevin Durant aren't good due to the struggles of the Suns?

It's overly simplistic to look at the Bulls record and use that to make the conclusion that Coby and Giddey aren't good enough to be part of a successful future.

Our post all-star record suggest we're closer to a .500 team. Would Giddey and Coby leading a team with a flawed roster to a .500 record impress you more?

I agree with you that a good player on a bad team can eventually overcome that, but I still think that Coby and Giddey don't have the level of potential that Cunningham, Banchero and Zion have. And I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

As for your last question (in bold) that depends on what you mean by "flawed roster", but yes I'd be more impressed than I am now. However, almost every year you can say "the team was good during X period", but that never tells the full story. AK has done that before when he says things like "The Bulls were good against good teams, but didn't do well against bad teams". While that might be true, it doesn't mean things will turn around and we'll suddenly be a contending team.

You also have to keep in mind the teams the Bulls are currently winning against. Some of them are tanking and others are just bad.

I know I've said this before, but I like both Coby and Giddey. I just think they need another player (or two) with a higher level of potential than those two (as in all-star potential).

[drosestruts]

If Giddey and Coby are so great then why are the Bulls on pace to win around 34 games this season?

This is a great and fair question.

I think both Coby and Giddey had bad/slow starts to the season.

Giddey we know left the Olympics with an injury and I always wondered how that affected him early on.

I have fewer hypotheses about why Coby started so poorly.

In general with the Bulls there always seems to be a lot of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The team has long been very stubborn with its lineups and rotations.

Vuc is bad. Williams is bad. These are two of our highest minutes played players on the team.

Can a good player overcome a bad team? You pointed out previously that Cunningham and the Piston only won 15 games last year ,a player you label as a franchise cornerstone. Which would seem to indicate good players can be on teams with bad records.

Does anyone think Devin Booker and Kevin Durant aren't good due to the struggles of the Suns?

It's overly simplistic to look at the Bulls record and use that to make the conclusion that Coby and Giddey aren't good enough to be part of a successful future.

Our post all-star record suggest we're closer to a .500 team. Would Giddey and Coby leading a team with a flawed roster to a .500 record impress you more?

I agree with you that a good player on a bad team can eventually overcome that, but I still think that Coby and Giddey don't have the level of potential that Cunningham, Banchero and Zion have. And I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

As for your last question (in bold) that depends on what you mean by "flawed roster", but yes I'd be more impressed than I am now. However, almost every year you can say "the team was good during X period", but that never tells the full story. AK has done that before when he says things like "The Bulls were good against good teams, but didn't do well against bad teams". While that might be true, it doesn't mean things will turn around and we'll suddenly be a contending team.

You also have to keep in mind the teams the Bulls are currently winning against. Some of them are tanking and others are just bad.

I know I've said this before, but I like both Coby and Giddey. I just think they need another player (or two) with a higher level of potential than those two (as in all-star potential).

All decent to good teams beat bad teams. Watching this team play over the past 4 years and being anything other than thrilled they're routinely beating bad teams instead of playing down to them should be celebrated.

We also have recent wins over the: kings, Pacers, and Magic

Have been competitive in games against the: Rockets, Clippers, and Knicks


We have had good stretches in the past and we routinely abandoned what made us successful during those stretches.

We were legitimately playing well when starting Beverley and Caurso alongside LaVine, DeRozan, and Vuc. We then start the next season not re-signing Beverley, not continuing to start Caruso but going back to starting Williams along with White (who's slow starts seems to be a bad trend. The LaVine 51 point game vs Detroit we lost and White and Williams combined for 0 points still haunts me). Not to mention LaVine's has season ending surgery that year as well.

If we learn nothing, again, from this and I see Williams and Vuc in the starting lineup on opening night I'm going to throw a tantrum on this message board.


Why doesn't Giddey have the same potential to you as Banchero?

Aside from scoring more points (while taking 9 more FGAs per game), what, if anything is Banchero better than Giddey at?

Giddey has a higher FG%, 2P%, 3P%, FT%, Rebounds per game, Assists per game, Steals per game, lower turnover, lower fouls, a higher TS%, higher Rebound %, higher assist %, higher Win Share, higher VORP.

They're both 22 years old.

I feel like Banchero is being shoved down our throats with his ROY win and being named an All-Star in year 2 and I've just personally never seen him as special.

[CROBulls]

Banchero is really really good. He is not superstar yet, but he is definitely slightly above All-Star talent player. If Bulls had Banchero instead for example Zach (before trade) they would definitely be playoff team with chance of upset. He just this year too much injury bitten.