Kidd: Howard Will Be Free Agent Magnet

[bullzman23]

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No but God do I wish I'd saved your points guards list from 2002. The only one I can remember was Sherman Douglas. It was such an awesome list of wank. If you'e still got it, or memory of it, bust out that bad boy right now.

Oh man, I loved that list. I always felt like Greg Anthony made us a better team simply by being a vet. I badly wanted a vet. guard, and always wanted Douglass. Bogues and Randy Brown were probably on it, and I think Damon Jones was also there. I saw him live in an exhibition game while he was in Vancouver. I remember he did a 360 jam during warm-ups and after that I believed he could be a star if someone gave him a chance.

Robert Pack, Dee Brown, and Mark Jackson were definitely on it. I probably mentioned that I liked Dedric Willoughby too.

[SensiBull]

Brooklyn Bulls, I think bullzman23 will back me up on this, but I don't think the Bulls lost out with Tyson and Eddy. What reason do we have to believe that Tyson and Eddy had even half the attention that Andrew Bynum is getting. Not to mention that they increased thier odds of success by getting their hands on Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown as well and putting them ALL under the same tutelage.

Tyson Chandler goes to New Orleans and blows up, and suddenly it's because of Chris Paul?

But, wait a minute. Everyone who leaves, and even those who are still here are breathing a collective sigh of relief at the dismissal of Scott Skiles, but, it isn't that Skiles had a NEGATIVE effect on Tyson Chandler. Chris Paul's grass is just that much greener than ours.

These are not draft picks that didn't pan out.

We say Isaiah is an idiot, but, the fact that Curry is floundering under him has nothing to do with that?

In the right situation, any number of players can do well. We found an effective use for Curry. It's been demonstrated that he CAN be an effective player. Not there in the fourth quarter? I can live with that. A quality starting pitcher in baseball doesn't have to be there in the ninth inning to have value. That's what closers are for. You don't have to be a closer to have value.

Now, coincidentally, we've got Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah heavily riding the pine. Do we as a franchise even realize that this party, the big man party, is the party that we are late to?

Do you see any sense of urgency in the franchise in getting quality development out of Noah and Tyrus? Are we doing ANYTHING different in developing them than we did with Tyson and Eddy?

[bullzman23]

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You'd better not be trying to steal in on my Damon Jones discovery. I had him and Bobby Simmons in the same post. Both were absolute nothings that became good, then became crap again. And I lay claim to both.

And besides, we had a vet guard. We had the mighty Rick Brunson versus Doug Overton training camp battle. Lest we forget.

Ah the ESPN days...you also had Damon Jones, and were way more vocal on it. I'll give you that. I had Hubie Brown before West though. Problem is, no one remembers And good old Brunson...man...

Do you realize that we're living in a world without Brunson, Bagaric, Jeffries, Pargo, Pike, Allen, Harrington, Luke, Marty, etc? We literally have no funny players on our team anymore. Khryapa should be funny, but he just isn't. The Duhon being drunk on the court stuff is sort of fun, but I miss the good old days.

[bullzman23]

Brooklyn Bulls, I think bullzman23 will back me up on this, but I don't think the Bulls lost out with Tyson and Eddy. What reason do we have to believe that Tyson and Eddy had even half the attention that Andrew Bynum is getting. Not to mention that they increased thier odds of success by getting their hands on Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown as well and putting them ALL under the same tutelage.

Tyson Chandler goes to New Orleans and blows up, and suddenly it's because of Chris Paul?

But, wait a minute. Everyone who leaves, and even those who are still here are breathing a collective sigh of relief at the dismissal of Scott Skiles, but, it isn't that Skiles had a NEGATIVE effect on Tyson Chandler. Chris Paul's grass is just that much greener than ours.

These are not draft picks that didn't pan out.

We say Isaiah is an idiot, but, the fact that Curry is floundering under him has nothing to do with that?

In the right situation, any number of players can do well. We found an effective use for Curry. It's been demonstrated that he CAN be an effective player. Not there in the fourth quarter? I can live with that. A quality starting pitcher in baseball doesn't have to be there in the ninth inning to have value. That's what closers are for. You don't have to be a closer to have value.

Now, coincidentally, we've got Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah heavily riding the pine. Do we as a franchise even realize that this party, the big man party, is the party that we are late to?

Do you see any sense of urgency in the franchise in getting quality development out of Noah and Tyrus? Are we doing ANYTHING different in developing them than we did with Tyson and Eddy?

I certainly agree that we've been poor in developing our players and are doing the same with Thomas and Noah. I have a feeling that Boylan is going to start playing Thomas heavily real soon. I don't think there's a huge rush to play Noah consistently yet. He's a rookie, he can ride the pine for awhile. I also don't think too highly of him, though I think he'll be good.

Historically we seem to make a commitment to the wrong guys on our roster. Guys like JYD, Blount, Hassell, Duhon, Smith, etc. They may not get 'huge' minutes, but I've always felt that they took away minutes from the more important guys, even if I liked most of them.

[BrooklynBulls]

Brooklyn Bulls, I think bullzman23 will back me up on this, but I don't think the Bulls lost out with Tyson and Eddy. What reason do we have to believe that Tyson and Eddy had even half the attention that Andrew Bynum is getting. Not to mention that they increased thier odds of success by getting their hands on Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown as well and putting them ALL under the same tutelage.

Tyson Chandler goes to New Orleans and blows up, and suddenly it's because of Chris Paul?

But, wait a minute. Everyone who leaves, and even those who are still here are breathing a collective sigh of relief at the dismissal of Scott Skiles, but, it isn't that Skiles had a NEGATIVE effect on Tyson Chandler. Chris Paul's grass is just that much greener than ours.

These are not draft picks that didn't pan out.

We say Isaiah is an idiot, but, the fact that Curry is floundering under him has nothing to do with that?

In the right situation, any number of players can do well. We found an effective use for Curry. It's been demonstrated that he CAN be an effective player. Not there in the fourth quarter? I can live with that. A quality starting pitcher in baseball doesn't have to be there in the ninth inning to have value. That's what closers are for. You don't have to be a closer to have value.

Now, coincidentally, we've got Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah heavily riding the pine. Do we as a franchise even realize that this party, the big man party, is the party that we are late to?

Do you see any sense of urgency in the franchise in getting quality development out of Noah and Tyrus? Are we doing ANYTHING different in developing them than we did with Tyson and Eddy?

What you've done now is switched the argument. I'll play along. Do you believe that Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler could have become Shaq or Garnett-like? Absolutely no one else does. Tyson Chandler was held back here. No question. But he wasn't to the point that you suggest. He's now an 11 and 12 player, very nice, but not a worldbeater. Eddy Curry went to a place where he was labeled the franchise, all eyes on him, he'd play as many minutes as he could handle, he'd become the offensive focus. Then he sucked. At some point, you have to admit that these guys aren't the answer for anyone, no matter how they were mismanaged early on.

I don't allege that they don't or didn't have value. Just that it doesn't matte r under this model that you've chosen. Kobe Bryant will not beg to play with Eddy Curry. Chris Webber won't sign to get a chance to say he played with Eddy and his heart and determination won them a ring.

Now, when you talk Tyrus and Noah, obviously people are going to agree with you in this respect. But they, too, have zero chance to be world-beaters. We're back to the build up the talent model, not the "lets get a D12 and have FA's knock down our door" model, as you suggested.

[SensiBull]

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I certainly agree that we've been poor in developing our players and are doing the same with Thomas and Noah. I have a feeling that Boylan is going to start playing Thomas heavily real soon. I don't think there's a huge rush to play Noah consistently yet. He's a rookie, he can ride the pine for awhile. I also don't think too highly of him, though I think he'll be good.

Historically we seem to make a commitment to the wrong guys on our roster. Guys like JYD, Blount, Hassell, Duhon, Smith, etc. They may not get 'huge' minutes, but I've always felt that they took away minutes from the more important guys, even if I liked most of them.

Thank you, bullzman.

THERE is the point, for all of you distracted by posts from years back and quips about Troy Murphy, thanks to the Sham show.

It's not just 'missing out' on big men. It's that we don't even seem to see the urgency in addressing the problem.

I'm surprised that I haven't heard more from those that favored a Gasol trade, as much time as we sat on the fence with that, not that I advocated it, but there's a thirst for a decent big man that should have been on its way to being quenched, not when the DNA thing with Curry broke out, but when we realized:

1. This guy may not re-sign with us for no other reason than that he can opt not too as a condition of the CBA; and
   
2. We're a bunch of pencil-pushing geeks obsessed with 82games.com and he's a 'net negative' so we may not WANT to re-sign him.

Either way, someone should have been waiting in the wings in case Eddy didn't work out. Three years later, to have Joakim Noah riding the pine as your best case scenario is unthinkable.

And we knew that both Ben Wallace AND Tyson Chandler had no offense. It seems perfectly logical for Ben to become the role player that Tyson was, here. But to pay that role player $60MM, and have him be your only low-post player who is anything more than just serviceable, signed in desparation, is not a contingency plan.

And even now, we need a kick in the pants to get playing time for them. We're not just late to the party. We're acting like we don't even know the event is happening.

[Susan]

Joe-Kim-Noah

End of thread.

[bullzman23]

Now, when you talk Tyrus and Noah, obviously people are going to agree with you in this respect. But they, too, have zero chance to be world-beaters.

I just want to be on record for saying that I think Thomas is going to be a franchise player.

[BrooklynBulls]

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I just want to be on record for saying that I think Thomas is going to be a franchise player.

I didn't say he had no chance to be that. He has a ridiculously small chance, until I get to see him play a lot of minutes and a lot of games, then I'll re-evaluate. But does anyone think he can be top 5 sort of good? I don't.

[derf]

For what its worth, didn't Charlotte move up from like fifth to to second in the Dwight Howard draft for some ridiculously cheap price (player). And didn't Orlando think long and hard about taking Okafor over Howard?

The Bobcats came very close to stealing the player of the decade that year. See, the thing was at that time drafting the High Schooler wasn't the hip thing to do. In fact thanks (in part) to our own John Paxon Groupthink had swung in favor of the experienced guys.

For the Bulls? Amare was the guy they could have had, but in the afterglow of EC, TC and Kwame's rookie seasons no one recognized the opportunity, (wanted to take the chance) and so he fell into Pheonix's lap (6th if I recall correctly). Krause's draft strategy was always a little out of sync IMO. Good Ideas, but the wrong guys at the wrong times.

[bullzman23]

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I didn't say he had no chance to be that. He has a ridiculously small chance, until I get to see him play a lot of minutes and a lot of games, then I'll re-evaluate. But does anyone think he can be top 5 sort of good? I don't.

The only real flaw he has in his game is that he can't really spin in the post without either traveling or getting blocked. Once he gets his foot work down and becomes a good shooter, there's not a whole lot stopping him from getting to the top of the league.

[SensiBull]

And we knew that both Ben Wallace AND Tyson Chandler had no offense. It seems perfectly logical for Ben to become the role player that Tyson was, here. But to pay that role player $60MM, and have him be your only low-post player who is anything more than just serviceable, signed in desparation, is not a contingency plan.

Whereas Drew Gooden......

......oh, sorry, too quippy.

No. Not too quippy. The problem is that, like many posters on this board, you seem to be operating with the very myopic "four leaf clover search" menality. You look at players in a vacuum. Sort of like the way you plucked that post and looked at IT in a vacuum.

Drew Gooden is part of the LeBron James show. At one point, Tracy McGrady was part of the Vince Carter show. At one point, Scottie Pippen was part of the Michael Jordan show.

This is not to say that Drew Gooden will ever achieve their greatness, but the pattern I'm pointing to is that players blossoming when they get out of franchises that are all about some other player, and, that posters only being willing to evaluate a player according to past performance and current record on paper, completely without consideration for environment and how that might explain inconsistencies in their performance as compared to the rankings produced by the arduous process of sorting out talent that GM's and mock drafts go through every year.

Yes. Some players are flat out busts. Some are. And some players don't deserve to be drafted as late as they do, but, for the most part, the draft system does a pretty good job of ranking players according to talent.

So, when a franchise consistently gets a dip at the upper crust of the incoming talent in the league and so regularly fails to get any results, you have to ask yourself, "Did the league suddenly open up the floodgates and let any old schmoe play professional basketball? Or, is there something about the way that the club is managing the talent that is taking the shine off of them?" I mean it's not like the league suddenly added a third round around the time that the Bulls started rebuilding.

As they say, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different is the definition of insanity. But, hey! It's too much fun posting pipe dreams on rant boards where we:

1. Get lucky by getting the #1 pick and
2. Get lucky by getting "the next Jordan"

No need to improve our skills in developing players. Lets just keep trying to get "lucky". Yet successful people always tell you that the harder they WORK the luckier they get, meaning it ISN'T LUCK!

So, hey! Let the "We're gonna get Derrick Rose/OJ Mayo/Marcus Beasley" threads, followed by the "Hey! Why didn't BG/Deng/Hinrich/Tyrus/Noah do that when he was with Bulls? [It must be that he had it in for us as a franchise]" threads begin.

[SensiBull]

And, for what it's worth, Drew Gooden's numbers, even though he's playing "Ed McMahon" to LeBron's "Johnny Carson/Jay Leno". No scratch that. He's playing "Doc Severenson/Kevin Eubanks". Gooden's numbers on the season are quite similar to Andrew Bynum's who LA considers untouchable, and some experienced posters would actually offer Luol Deng to get.

Yes. That's right. "THE Drew Gooden", and he wouldn't have cost us $60MM to get either. Would he, Sham?

[blumeany]

The Bulls have had just plain bad luck when it comes to drafts. When they had the most picks, or the highest picks, the draft was terrible. Then they would be just good enough to miss on a guy like Howard. We just can't win. But I guess this is just Karma paying us back for Jordan. I'll take that.

[Wizenheimer]

As a fan of another team, I don't mean to interrupt you guys debating hindsight....

but the genesis of this thread is a comment by Jason Kidd. Now, I know Kidd has been a great player, but I'm also thinking his off-court judgement has been...dubious at times. It's possible that he's wrong about what will 'magnetize' all future free agents, and that a variety of other factors will be more important then the presence of Howard in their decisions. In other words, Kidd could be wrong.