We need a totally new backcourt

[coldfish]

I pretty much agree with Duck. The Bulls backcourt was good last year with Duhon playing like crap. If the team can manage to:
- bury Duhon deep on the bench
- continue to get good play from Thabo
- get Hinrich to return to his 06/07 form
- get Gordon to accept a long term role off the bench

That's a lot of things, but I don't think any of them are unreasonable.

The backcourt could be good and an overall asset. We still wouldn't have a slasher / creator, but unless you have an elite player, no group is perfect.

....

I have to ask: Would this thread be here if Baron didn't drop 18 points on Duhon in the 3rd quarter on the way to outscoring him by 34? If not, is this just a misplaced bash Duhon thread?

[The 6ft Hurdle]

-= original quote snipped =-



what a load. Making a few good shots down the stretch then blowing a game on an error is still costing you the game. It's like a relief pitcher coming in with the bases loaded striking out the first two guys then hitting the third batter to walk in the winning run.

Ever hear the "he makes em when it counts" phrase to describe clutch shots? Well if he blows it when it counts he blows it. Not to bash Ben Gordon, just pointing out that there are indeed times where you can look at him and say he was involved in the play that "cost us the game". I'm sure if Hinrich had a game where he had almost perfect shooting and high assists/low turnovers yet dribbled it off his foot on the last play down by one, you'd be one of the first guys to say he "cost us the game".

Not quite.

It's all on the pitcher to save the game.

It's not all on Ben Gordon.

He's made key momentum-busting mistakes, but the underlying and more bothering trend is that our defense in the 4th has been porous. It's not reasonable to expect there to be no mistakes down the stretch especially when offenses are clashing back and forth.

We've had it coming to us in all these close games against the slightly above average up-and-coming teams...we all lost the lead in these games and you could feel the momentum and fluidity of the offense slipping away.

We've been playing not to lose in these games.

[molepharmer]

.... I have to ask: Would this thread be here if Baron didn't drop 18 points on Duhon in the 3rd quarter on the way to outscoring him by 34? If not, is this just a misplaced bash Duhon thread?

That's not entirely accurate. Davis had scored only 5pts in the 3rd before Gordon entered at the 6:06 mark. Davis scored 14pts the remainder of the 3rd. And I saw on multiple occasions when the Bulls were in the zone that Gordon failed to close out on Davis - Gordon was so late on the closeout that Boylan was visibly upset about it.

Did any of the guards force Davis to his left ???

And what happened to trying Deng at the 2 ? I'm not a big fan of it 'cause I think he's probably a step too slow for most SGs. But wasn't that one of those things Pax wanted to see and one of the reasons for Skiles being fired. At least if Deng had been one of two guards at the top of the zone his length would have caused the GS shooters more problems.

[BigUps]

I have to ask: Would this thread be here if Baron didn't drop 18 points on Duhon in the 3rd quarter on the way to outscoring him by 34? If not, is this just a misplaced bash Duhon thread?

I think thats a fair question, I do. But, I still think this thread is a legitimate question. Personally, I don't see a backcourt trio of Gordon, Hinrich and Thabo bringing us a championship. I still think Thabo is more of a 3 that can play spot minutes at the 2 and guard other teams dominate 2's.

For what its worth, Thabo's PER at the 2 is 15.7 and 21.3 at the 3. Not a huge difference, but I'd question any stats on Thabo because of his spot minutes and recent play (he was garbage up until last week),

Finally, a trio of Gordon, Hinrich and Thabo have the following issues:
1. None of them can penetrate.
2. None of them are great passers.
3. None of them are closers.
4. None of them are true PG's.
5. None can finish at the rim.

So I do think this thread is legit. However, the backcourt is a much smaller worry to me than the frontcourt. Benching Wallace is the first thing that needs to happen. We do that and were a much better team immediately.

[derf]

The fix for the back court was always supposed to be Thabo. Finally he is beginning to show a a pulse. At 6'7" with the reach of a 7' he solves all of the size issues for the Bulls back court.

If (when) Kirk recovers his shot we can pair Thabo with a shooter at all times. As he regains his confidence he might even shoot a little better himself.

[suckfish]

Finally, a trio of Gordon, Hinrich and Thabo have the following issues:
1. None of them can penetrate.
2. None of them are great passers.
3. None of them are closers.
4. None of them are true PG's.
5. None can finish at the rim.

Gordon and Thabo can penetrate. Kirk not so much. Your confusing penetration with finishing. Gordon can beat his man, he can get to the key, he just can't finish. Thabo is the same if so better, he has all the tools to be a good finisher IMO, it will come with time.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-


That's not entirely accurate. Davis had scored only 5pts in the 3rd before Gordon entered at the 6:06 mark. Davis scored 14pts the remainder of the 3rd. And I saw on multiple occasions when the Bulls were in the zone that Gordon failed to close out on Davis - Gordon was so late on the closeout that Boylan was visibly upset about it.

Did any of the guards force Davis to his left ???

I did see Gordon having close out issues a few times, but that goes back to the zone issue. It worked for about 5 minutes and then Boylan rode it too long.

Regardless, Thabo playing man on man against Baron through the 3rd quarter likely yields a win last night.

Finally, a trio of Gordon, Hinrich and Thabo have the following issues:
1. None of them can penetrate.
2. None of them are great passers.
3. None of them are closers.
4. None of them are true PG's.
5. None can finish at the rim.

Several of those things are the same thing, or are intimately related. Essentially, you are looking for a good ball handler who can get into the lane and dish or finish.

I agree in general that getting Chris Paul would make this team a lot better. I think the only real option that would fit your needs who the team *might* get would be Derrick Rose.

Everyone else who is anything close to what you want is completely untouchable.

I wonder how a Rose / Thabo / Gordon backcourt would work? Would Hinrich be better than Gordon? There are pros and cons to each.

[bre9]

Thabo and Gordon is a nice backcourt because it fits Gordon to have a tall palyer with good handles like Thabo next to him. Thabo and Kirk would be a ok but since Hinrich shot has been so up and down this season and his pg guard play has been up and down also.

I don't think we have a bad back court especially now since Thabo has come on since of late. They just ran into a better backcourt in Barn Davis and Monta Ellis.

[jump]

Right now we have a backcourt of:

Hinrich
Gordon
Duhon
Thabo

What I'd rather see (after the draft and the summer)

Gordon
Maggette
Thabo
Draft of Derrick Rose or Jarryd Bayless, or Darren Collison

Or...

Gordon
Maggette
Rose/Bayless/Collison
Vet PG (Cassell or Anthony Carter or Jason Williams)

To me, Hinrich and Duhon are the ones who have to go. Gordon is a 20+ ppg guard and you don't get rid of them unless you get a bigger star shooting guard in return. Under a new coach, he still could explode.

I'm with those who believe we need a real floor leader, create the offense, PG to run this team. I've always loved Hinrich, but now I'm done. He still has high value in the league and should fetch us an excellent trade return.

[girlygirl]

Isn't Corey Maggette is primarily a small forward? He plays very little at the SG spot with the Clippers...

[coldfish]

Isn't Corey Maggette is primarily a small forward? He plays very little at the SG spot with the Clippers...

I really don't think it matters. People here constantly chime in about building a "championship" team. Magette is never going to be a primary player on an elite team. I don't see what the fascination is.

I think people only like him because he is big and he is from Chicago.

[girlygirl]

Yeah, since I live in L.A. I see Maggette play a lot and I'm not overly impressed. He's a good player, but he's not close to being a franchise type guy. The one thing he does exceptionally well is attack the basket and get to the FT line. That's certainly something the Bulls need -- a player who can get to the rim and to the FT line. But the rest of his game is sort of "eh". He doesn't like to pass the ball (2.1 career APG) and he is too turnover prone to be someone who I'd want handling the ball a lot. His perimeter game comes and goes (31.7% career from behind the 3-point line), and his defense is probably average at best. He's also known to complain about not starting and/or his playing time -- although to his credit, I haven't heard or read as much about that so far this season.

[Sonny_D1]

I really don't think it matters. People here constantly chime in about building a "championship" team. Magette is never going to be a primary player on an elite team. I don't see what the fascination is.

I think people only like him because he is big and he is from Chicago.

No, I think people like him (at least I do) because he has the ability to bring a whole new dynamic to our team. I don't view him as a "primary" player, rather an important piece to help realize a championship caliber team. Is he a "superstar?" Hell no. Can he break a defense down and get to the rim and either score or draw a foul? Hell yeah.

He's consistently been in the top 10 in FTA's per game year in and year out. His average FTA's over the last 5 years are: 8.5, 10, 8, 8.4, 8.9. If that's not consistent, I don't know what is. Now I'm sure some of his trips to the line can attributed to the style of offense they run, but I think bringing him here would allow us to implement some of those same strategies.

How many times have we clamored for guys to "get to the basket." Deng has the potential to do it, but to this point he hasn't shown the ability to do it on a consistent basis. BG will never be that type of player, he's just not explosive enough or big enough.

If you watch Maggette play, he has this uncanny ability to draw contact almost everytime he gets to the rim. He pretty much goes looking for contact and usually finds it. That's not something you can really teach. He carries a career .573 TS% (BG .542) and his TRB% is 10.1 (BG 5.5). Of course BG is a much better outside shooter, but again Mags brings a whole new dynamic along with many other intangibles to the SG position.

Now I'm by no means advocating Maggette in place of BG, although if it has to be that way I'd still do it, but I'd love to see him, BG, and Thabo comprise our backcourt. The versatility and ability from those 3 as a whole would greatly improve this team.

[jump]

No, I think people like him (at least I do) because he has the ability to bring a whole new dynamic to our team. I don't view him as a "primary" player, rather an important piece to help realize a championship caliber team. Is he a "superstar?" Hell no. Can he break a defense down and get to the rim and either score or draw a foul? Hell yeah.

He's consistently been in the top 10 in FTA's per game year in and year out. His average FTA's over the last 5 years are: 8.5, 10, 8, 8.4, 8.9. If that's not consistent, I don't know what is. Now I'm sure some of his trips to the line can attributed to the style of offense they run, but I think bringing him here would allow us to implement some of those same strategies.

How many times have we clamored for guys to "get to the basket." Deng has the potential to do it, but to this point he hasn't shown the ability to do it on a consistent basis. BG will never be that type of player, he's just not explosive enough or big enough.

If you watch Maggette play, he has this uncanny ability to draw contact almost everytime he gets to the rim. He pretty much goes looking for contact and usually finds it. That's not something you can really teach. He carries a career .573 TS% (BG .542) and his TRB% is 10.1 (BG 5.5). Of course BG is a much better outside shooter, but again Mags brings a whole new dynamic along with many other intangibles to the SG position.

Now I'm by no means advocating Maggette in place of BG, although if it has to be that way I'd still do it, but I'd love to see him, BG, and Thabo comprise our backcourt. The versatility and ability from those 3 as a whole would greatly improve this team.

Thank you, Sonny_D. This is precisely the rationale I am using. That, and the fact the Maggette is one of the few REALISTIC options we have.

However, I don't think the backcourt is complete until we get a REAL PG. That's why I hope we can draft Derrick Rose, or at least Bayless (pray that he comes out). Then, I think our backcourt would be versatile and solid.

[Mr. Tibbs]

i agree while gordon keeps us in many games..he blows many games with late game hiccups as well. I say the problem is the coaching. Why do we go away from our sets that our working during the game to isolation plays at the end of the game that almost never work? I wish someone could get a stat of how often our shot clock goes to within 5 in the last 3 minutes...i'd bet alot. For whatever reason late in games our strategy turns into lets dribble out the clock and watch ben gordon work with 5 seconds left on the shot clock. And if he's in trouble? Send out ben wallace for a screen..that'll only help him get open right?

[bre9]

Our Guards Upside and Downside

THABO SEFOLOSHA -

Upside : Tall(6'7), good defense, good ball handler, and good at slashing to the basket.

Downside : Poor jumpshooter, timid at times, and not aggresive enough.

STATS

PPG- 3.5 RPG- 2.3 APG- 1.1 FG%- 35.0% FT%- 76% MPG : 12.6 minutes

BEN GORDON -

Upside : Great shooter(2's, 3's), Great freethrow shooter(2nd in the league), good scorer(reliable at times), fast, explosive.

Downside : Average defender (slow at defending), can get inside but can't finish most of the time, poor ball handler, SG in PG body ( short - 6'2 ).

STATS

PPG- 19.1 RPG- 3.6 APG- 2.8 FG%- 41% FT%- 91% MPG : 35 minutes

CHRIS DUHON -

Upside : Great ball handler, Good passer, nice backup pg.

Downside : Poor shooter ( can't hit wide open shot's), Pass up to many good looks, Average defender , short(6'1).

STATS

PPG- 5.4 RPG- 1.8 APG- 3.9 FG%- 35% FT%- 74% MPG : 23 minutes

KIRK HINRICH -

Upside : Decent shooter, can make wide open shots, good ball handler, decent combo guard (pg,sg).

Downside : Defense is slow ( use to be good), can get to the rim but can't finish, poor at running the team when he plays pg, dribble in one spot to long and is sg in pg body short(6'3).

STATS

PPG- 11.3 RPG- 3.6 APG- 6.1 FG%- 39% FT%- 89% MPG- 33 minutes

I think we have a good group of guards most of them our complimentary guards that need to play beside each other for them to suceed and diminish the deficiencies each of them have. But it's up to the coaches to Know when to play them together.

Best combo's

Thabo/ Kirk
Thabo/ Gordon
Gordon/ Kirk
Duhon/ Kirk

[ptpablo]

[quote="Bull Shak"]

Brandon Roy actually is the perfect fit next to Gordon. Paxson blew that one.
[quote]

That was the defining moment of the building of this team to date IMO. If Pax truly wanted Hinrich and BG to be on this team for the long haul he needed to draft Roy, the perfect complimet for those two. Yeah we needed a "big", but if you are going to commit to Kirk and BG and Skiles, Roy would have made a huge difference in the make-up of this team. 6'6'' with PG skills... it's not like they grow on trees.

[suckfish]

Bre9, I think thats a pretty fair break down of our backcourt. Can't really argue with any of the player upside or downsides, I think it's pretty accurate.

[Red Larrivee]

To this day, it still amazes me how the most Complete Player in the 2006 draft, wasn't even drafted in the top 5. Lol. Instead you had this..

Andrea Bargnani
LaMarcus Aldridge
Adam Morrison
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams

2006 Draft is pure Bafoonery, Portland will look like Greats for the next 10 years for getting Brandon Roy.