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PG: Bulls depose Kings

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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#361 » by Sugarless » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Rerisen wrote:The reason he's scoring better is largely he is being used better, not almost exclusively in the post where his skills are in natural decline due to aging.

And you will notice, we have not moved his usage back to high volume posting as would be the case if we just had to 'wait' for him to get in gear.

Well, I really think you should forget about your eye-test, which is not that accurate, and check the numbers before insisting on some arguments.

As I've said before regarding both Pau and the Bulls offense in general, mainly in some of those doom and gloom threads, it is common sense to know that when you have a number of new options on your team (Pau, Rose, 2014/15 Butler) it's going to take some time until things start clicking. Moreso with big guys as they're not the ones to bring the ball up the court and they need to be fed in order to get the ball where they can do more damage. And as someone who's followed Pau quite more closely and for way longer than you (there's no merit in that, but it gives you a different perspective and a bigger picture), I also know how he usually starts the season and how he gets better from there, especially during the last few years.

Yet instead of aknowleding that, you conformed a whole story that fit your predicaments about how Pau wasn't an efficient player, how he hadn't been efficient for years and how we should go away from him in the post, which you still mantain against the facts.

So, about those low-post touches and looks, I'm afraid the numbers show quite a different story:

- In November Pau took 66.7% of his shots within 9 feet from the basket, scoring with a 49.3 eFG% overall.

- In December he got the lowest usage rate of any month this season and at the same time he attempted just 58.1% from within 9 feet, while his eFG% fell to 45.8. So no, him getting too many touches down low wasn't the problem.

- In January his usage rate when up again and he also took 59.6% of his shots from within 9 feet, with a eFG% of 50.4%. So he shot *more* from the low block, not less, and his eFG% went *up*, not down.

And yet you keep repeating how we've gone away from feeding him so much in the post and how that's what's helped his efficiency.

Not sure why you are addressing this to me in specific either, a would bet a majority of Bulls fans agree with the position that its stupid to play him 12 straight minutes because often he is *obviously tired* by the end of it. His speed and effort are visibly less by the end of the quarter many nights. There is simply no need, we have 4 quality bigs.


Well, I'm addressing this to you because we've talked about it before and you won't move your stance one bit despite what's trully been happening on the court. No offense, but it seems like you *need* to be right and you've built that narrative around something that is just not there.

So it's not a matter of Pau 'naturally shoots better as the season goes' that is an entirely exclusive point quite separate from his minutes load. He could shoot better as the year goes on, and shoot even better yet, if we didn't over do his minute stints.

Pau's played 35 mpg each and every month of the season, and he still plays 12 minute stints, so that's not what's made his shooting % better, just like it's not been going away from him in the post.

Does it mean I want him playing 12-minutes stints game in and game out? Not at all. As a coach you have to go with what the game dictates, whether that's 8 minutes, 12 or 15 on a given night. But that's not the point here. My previous paragraph is.

Beyond that, the Bulls have changed their use of Pau in exactly the ways I was arguing for, and the team is way better for doing it.


Again, they haven't. And believe me it's fine if you're not right, there's just no point in going against the facts over and over again. You've said he's been no better than the rest of the Bulls main bigs, that he's just an average efficiency scorer (he's 9th in the league in TS% among big guys scoring at least 15 ppg), that he's not dominant in the low post anymore (that's why he keeps getting doubled, I guess), that Thibs was going away from him at the post and at the end of games showing who he trusts (it took you two games to formulate that argument, and you see how it's lasted), that they were reducing his post touches and for a good reason... And you've been wrong about all of it.

There's something else you once said on this topic too:

Both the media and fans love to build feel good narratives even if they don't mesh with reality.


Well, I think you've built a feel-bad narrative even though it doesn't mesh with reality, and I don't see the point in sustaining it. The team seems to be getting better step by step, it doesn't matter if it is for different reasons.

My honest advice, if you want to take it, would be to start watching the games from scratch, forget your prejudices, and get a new look on what's really happening on the court. It'll be refreshing, you'll see.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#362 » by Stratmaster » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:38 pm

bullslas wrote:It's not just playing 38 minutes last night, it's the way it's being done. 12 consecutive minutes for Gasol every night. Yesterday, Thibs went to far with 12 straight in the 3rd, then a few more after just to top it off...

Think about it, 12 consecutive minutes every game 1st and 3rd quarters. Gasol always looks dead tired after 9 minutes. Bulls seem to always lose a lead, or the lead grows in those last 3 minutes. Thibs must learn how to fix his rotation.


IDK, again I have a hard time believing a 34 year old professional athlete can't play 12 straight minutes of basketball. Especially since it isn't even 12 straight minutes. There are TV timeouts, team timeouts, free throw attempts. And it isn't like Gasol's game is running the court.

I do agree though that it wouldn't hurt to sub him at, say, the 2 minute mark of Q1.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#363 » by mj234eva » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Ralphb07 wrote:also Gasol seems much more effective in the puck and pop. In order for Gasol n Noah to work, having Gasol more of a pick n pop guy is where he should be. Miller n Noah worked a few years back


Yea, Pau is shooting roughly 50% from 15-23 feet. Seems like it's even higher on the Rose and Pau, pick and pop.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#364 » by coldfish » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:47 pm

Ralphb07 wrote:
what was your take on the 3rd qtr? I thought the spacing was awesome and the movement was good.

also Gasol seems much more effective in the puck and pop. In order for Gasol n Noah to work, having Gasol more of a pick n pop guy is where he should be. Miller n Noah worked a few years back


The Bulls were running a lot of their action at the top of the key with Gasol and Rose, which was working well. What I was having trouble following is that in the past when they did this the other 3 guys were standing around. Now it seems that Rose was dribbling into this position from the side as Gasol came out and the other 3 guys were moving. I couldn't follow all the movement and didn't take the time to analyze it but it looked good. Sacramento wasn't being given an opportunity to load up on the pick and roll.

This might be a new variation on the motion offense or it might be a new set. I'm not sure which. I just didn't recognize it and the Bulls were running it a ton.

Clarification: When I use the words "load up", I mean that opposing defenders have an opportunity to identify their man off ball, identify where the action is going to come from with the ball and then cheat into a good position to either help onto a ball handler or recover onto a shooter. Some people refer to this as "packing the lane" but its more nuanced than that. If a defender is having to pay attention to where his guy is at then he can't be paying as much attention to what the ball handler is doing. It improves spacing and every once in a while gives you a great looking back door pass or alley oop.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#365 » by musiqsoulchild » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:55 pm

Ralphb07 wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:

The question a lot of people are asking is what happens when Kirk returns? Snell has been better than Kirk all year.and now forced into minutes is taking it to another level. After the break when Kirk comes back will Thibs go with Snell and not play Kirk or will Snell get pushed out by Kirk.

I don't think anyone feels Thibs isnt a good teacher or developer. It's does Thibs reward good play or veterans. We will find out when Kirk returns


I agree with you Ralph that based on play there is no way Kirk should be playing over Snell at this point. I just have a hard time seeing Thibs completely bench Kirk..




maybe Jen is smarter than we think and she knows what's up and holds Kirk out for a few extra weeks. :D No, I don't hope Kirk is hurt anymore than he really is... but, OTOH, turf toe never killed anyone and I really do want to see Snell play a lot more.


Kirk should be the 4th wing and 3rd pg getting like 10 minutes a night. Basically he should get minutes behind jimmy who plays 38-40 a night. Snell should get the minutes behind Mike


Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#366 » by Rerisen » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:05 pm

Sugarless wrote:- In November Pau took 66.7% of his shots within 9 feet from the basket, scoring with a 49.3 eFG% overall.


That isn't his post up percentage. People used the same erroneous stats back at the beginning of the year, then I broke down the actual types of shots from each location and type, including watching dozens of individual plays at nba.com, and if you do that, you will see Pau's paint percentage is high primarily because of dunks, put backs, tip ins, and driving layups, all primarily assisted or off boards. All where he shoots well over 50%.

Those have nothing to do with giving him the ball in the post in isolation, which was the target of the correction that needed to be made.

If you look at his %s on actual post ups like hook shots, turn arounds, and many of his layups, its several points under 50%. Let's look at 'Layups' the 2nd most common shot type for all bigs after jumpers, in which they are likely to be contested at the rim:

Tim Duncan: 62.5%
Griffin: 59.9%
Aldridge: 59.8%
A. Davis: 54.8%
Marc Gasol: 53.1%
Pau Gasol: 46.2%

As you can see Pau cannot finish like the elite bigs like he used to. He makes his efficiency cleaning up the glass and finishing plays that get setup from the offense where others get him the ball right near the rim and he doesn't have to create the opportunity on his own.

So again, you are confusing the wrong stats.

Just because we don't pound the ball down to him 1v1 anymore doesn't mean he can't score in the paint anymore, kind of a no-brainer he's over 7 feet tall, but he's just scoring in more efficient ways now where he does haven't to waste 5-7 seconds trying to back a guy down and manufacture a shot, while the rest of the offense dies around him.

That's still an option for easier matchups, guys that can't stymie him down low, like last night vs Thompson. But you certainly don't want to do it every night. Watch on Thursday and see how much he scores 1v1 vs Mozgov.

And yes the Bulls have certainly changed the way they used Pau. Through the first 20 games or so we ran virtually no Pick and Roll and Pick and Pop with Gasol, we had him primarily in the block 1v1, he was inefficient, his assists were at career lows and he was stagnating the offense. Pau and Rose were basically 'taking turns' and the offense had no flow.

Now that we have expanded his game, put him the high post more, and working with Derrick in the PnR, and PnP, he is back to averaging 3.5 assists this month in line with his career norms, and both of them are far more integrated into a team offense beneficial for everyone.

You should drop the condescension, as on top of being wrong, it makes for some insufferable posts.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#367 » by RedBulls23 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:13 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
I agree with you Ralph that based on play there is no way Kirk should be playing over Snell at this point. I just have a hard time seeing Thibs completely bench Kirk..




maybe Jen is smarter than we think and she knows what's up and holds Kirk out for a few extra weeks. :D No, I don't hope Kirk is hurt anymore than he really is... but, OTOH, turf toe never killed anyone and I really do want to see Snell play a lot more.


Kirk should be the 4th wing and 3rd pg getting like 10 minutes a night. Basically he should get minutes behind jimmy who plays 38-40 a night. Snell should get the minutes behind Mike


Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)

To me if Snell plays consistent, he should be getting more minutes than Kirk. He also has more upside defensively because of his length.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#368 » by barcodekiller » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:23 pm

LIke I said in the GT. I'd rather pick and pop with Pau almost all of the time. Unstoppable play. I'd only go to him in the post if he's really got it going or its a clear mismatch. Pick n Pop so much more efficient. And this is all based on eye test, don't need stats really at all
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#369 » by musiqsoulchild » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Red-Bulls83 wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:
Kirk should be the 4th wing and 3rd pg getting like 10 minutes a night. Basically he should get minutes behind jimmy who plays 38-40 a night. Snell should get the minutes behind Mike


Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)

To me if Snell plays consistent, he should be getting more minutes than Kirk. He also has more upside defensively because of his length.


Above is for playoffs only.

And it will change from team to team. But thats the general outline as of today. Kirk gets minutes based on his execution of Thibs plan. Snell will have to do the same consistently.

During Summer League this year, this is what Thibs had to say about Snell:
Coach Tom Thibodeau rarely criticizes players publicly. But thus far in training camp, he has been blunt when addressing Snell. And that's when he even talks about him; twice, Thibodeau has changed the subject when asked about Snell.

"He has to continue to work and study," Thibodeau said. "The biggest challenge is to be consistent. He had some good moments and he had some moments where obviously he can do a lot better. We just want to make sure he moves in the right direction."


And yesterday, after Snell posted his career high, this is what Thibs had to say:

"We need consistency from him," Thibodeau said. "You can't base it on anything other than performance."


Nothing has changed in Thibs eyes. Snell is playing better now, but there's a long, lonely bridge that he has to cross....the inner battle with his confidence and his own game.

If he wins that battle, we have a GAMER and a GAME-CHANGER. I will personally start a thread for Kirk Hinrich's retirement at that time. Or any other player who is taking away minutes from Snell.

But until then, we have to wait and watch. Lets give it until the end of the season and one full playoff season before we give Snell the A-OK.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#370 » by Cowbulls » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:56 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
I agree with you Ralph that based on play there is no way Kirk should be playing over Snell at this point. I just have a hard time seeing Thibs completely bench Kirk..




maybe Jen is smarter than we think and she knows what's up and holds Kirk out for a few extra weeks. :D No, I don't hope Kirk is hurt anymore than he really is... but, OTOH, turf toe never killed anyone and I really do want to see Snell play a lot more.


Kirk should be the 4th wing and 3rd pg getting like 10 minutes a night. Basically he should get minutes behind jimmy who plays 38-40 a night. Snell should get the minutes behind Mike


Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)


If Kirk is getting 20 minutes a game in the playoffs while Brooks is getting 4...We should be done in the first round.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#371 » by musiqsoulchild » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:08 pm

Cowbulls wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
Ralphb07 wrote:
Kirk should be the 4th wing and 3rd pg getting like 10 minutes a night. Basically he should get minutes behind jimmy who plays 38-40 a night. Snell should get the minutes behind Mike


Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)


If Kirk is getting 20 minutes a game in the playoffs while Brooks is getting 4...We should be done in the first round.


If Brooks is getting SIGNIFICANT minutes in the playoffs that means we are already behind.

When he cant score, he is a tripe negative threat. The guy is just too under-sized to be on a basketball court.

He will get his minutes in the playoffs against a smaller guard like Kyrie for a few minutes...but I dont see him averaging more than 8-10 at MOST.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#372 » by Keller61 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:47 pm

Pau is one of the best shooters in the league from 16-23 feet this year, at over 50%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=fg_pct
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#373 » by Rerisen » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:51 pm

Keller61 wrote:Pau is one of the best shooters in the league from 16-23 feet this year, at over 50%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=fg_pct


Indeed, we've made great hay with him there. And part of that is thanks to Derrick drawing his defender away from him.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#374 » by Sugarless » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:05 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Sugarless wrote:- In November Pau took 66.7% of his shots within 9 feet from the basket, scoring with a 49.3 eFG% overall.


That isn't his post up percentage. People used the same erroneous stats back at the beginning of the year, then I broke down the actual types of shots from each location and type, including watching dozens of individual plays at nba.com, and if you do that, you will see Pau's paint percentage is high primarily because of dunks, put backs, tip ins, and driving layups, all primarily assisted or off boards. All where he shoots well over 50%.

Those have nothing to do with giving him the ball in the post in isolation, which was the target of the correction that needed to be made.

If you look at his %s on actual post ups like hook shots, turn arounds, and many of his layups, its several points under 50%. Let's look at 'Layups' the 2nd most common shot type for all bigs after jumpers, in which they are likely to be contested at the rim:

Tim Duncan: 62.5%
Griffin: 59.9%
Aldridge: 59.8%
A. Davis: 54.8%
Marc Gasol: 53.1%
Pau Gasol: 46.2%

As you can see Pau cannot finish like the elite bigs like he used to. He makes his efficiency cleaning up the glass and finishing plays that get setup from the offense where others get him the ball right near the rim and he doesn't have to create the opportunity on his own.

So again, you are confusing the wrong stats.

Just because we don't pound the ball down to him 1v1 anymore doesn't mean he can't score in the paint anymore, kind of a no-brainer he's over 7 feet tall, but he's just scoring in more efficient ways now where he does haven't to waste 5-7 seconds trying to back a guy down and manufacture a shot, while the rest of the offense dies around him.

That's still an option for easier matchups, guys that can't stymie him down low, like last night vs Thompson. But you certainly don't want to do it every night. Watch on Thursday and see how much he scores 1v1 vs Mozgov.

And yes the Bulls have certainly changed the way they used Pau. Through the first 20 games or so we ran virtually no Pick and Roll and Pick and Pop with Gasol, we had him primarily in the block 1v1, he was inefficient, his assists were at career lows and he was stagnating the offense. Pau and Rose were basically 'taking turns' and the offense had no flow.

Now that we have expanded his game, put him the high post more, and working with Derrick in the PnR, and PnP, he is back to averaging 3.5 assists this month in line with his career norms, and both of them are far more integrated into a team offense beneficial for everyone.

You should drop the condescension, as on top of being wrong, it makes for some insufferable posts.

Wait, you think my posts are undeservedly condescendent with you and insufferable? Have you even read the tone of your own messages? All 81000 of them? :lol:

What I find insufferable is watching a guy (a forum mod nonetheless) hijack threads, butcher messages and handpick lines to reply to while ignoring whole posts, and all of that while continuously looking down at fellow posters and trying to prove he's right every single time.

See, what I'm quoting right here is your regular way of proceeding when you're confronted. You reduce a rather long message addressing quite a number of your wrong predicaments to one line, you pick one stat, you tell me you go by the numbers you got by watching replays early on the season (heh), then move to handpicking one single kind of shot to 'prove' that this guy is not able to finish like the elite bigs (I think you meant 'other' elite bigs, you don't want it to look like you're hating on your All-Star starter C), you go on by referring again at the first 20 games of the season like they weren't... you know, the first 20 games of the season (Pau's first season as a Bull, and Rose's first season in 2 years) and keep making a fuss about an early, small sample (of course Pau wasn't assisting as much, he was new to the team! That's exactly what happened when he first got to the Lakers, and you could have thought about it if you weren't so busy trying to show you're right all the time). And then you end up by showing your class once again as a forum mod.

Don't worry though, I won't trip over the same stone again. You can go back to keeping the spotlight without my help.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#375 » by Cowbulls » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:11 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Cowbulls wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
Kirk will get 18-20 and thats about right for him. Its because of the playoffs.

All of these fancy lineups and minutes that feature Brooks, Niko, Snell, Rose at 2G......thats all going away soon. The rotations will start tightening considerably after the all-star break.

The following is based on defense only...meaning who guards what position determines their player position:

Rose ( 34) / Kirk (10) / Brooks (4)
Butler (26) / Snell ( 12 ) / Kirk (10)
Dunleavy (30) / Butler (12) / Snell (6)


If Kirk is getting 20 minutes a game in the playoffs while Brooks is getting 4...We should be done in the first round.


If Brooks is getting SIGNIFICANT minutes in the playoffs that means we are already behind.

When he cant score, he is a tripe negative threat. The guy is just too under-sized to be on a basketball court.

He will get his minutes in the playoffs against a smaller guard like Kyrie for a few minutes...but I dont see him averaging more than 8-10 at MOST.


Well in that case it looks like he will get significant minutes, because if Kirk is playing half of an nba playoff game there is a great chance we are behind. At least when Brooks can't score the opposing team acts like they care about him.

Sorry but this forcing Kirk 20 minutes a night is the most confusing argument I've ever seen. He just doesn't deserve it...at all. I could understand 5-10 minutes in the playoffs, but 20 minutes? No way.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#376 » by Rerisen » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:35 pm

Sugarless wrote:Wait, you think my posts are undeservedly condescendent with you and insufferable? Have you even read the tone of your own messages? All 81000 of them? :lol:

What I find insufferable is watching a guy (a forum mod nonetheless) hijack threads, butcher messages and handpick lines to reply to while ignoring whole posts, and all of that while continuously looking down at fellow posters and trying to prove he's right every single time.

See, what I'm quoting right here is your regular way of proceeding when you're confronted. You reduce a rather long message addressing quite a number of your wrong predicaments to one line, you pick one stat, you tell me you go by the numbers you got by watching replays early on the season (heh), then move to handpicking one single kind of shot to 'prove' that this guy is not able to finish like the elite bigs (I think you meant 'other' elite bigs, you don't want it to look like you're hating on your All-Star starter C), you go on by referring again at the first 20 games of the season like they weren't... you know, the first 20 games of the season (Pau's first season as a Bull, and Rose's first season in 2 years) and keep making a fuss about an early, small sample (of course Pau wasn't assisting as much, he was new to the team! That's exactly what happened when he first got to the Lakers, and you could have thought about it if you weren't so busy trying to show you're right all the time). And then you end up by showing your class once again as a forum mod.

Don't worry though, I won't trip over the same stone again. You can go back to keeping the spotlight without my help.


First off, again you revert to making things personal. This is a real bad habit, and also against the TOS. I'd suggest you clean it up fast.

Beyond that, I find it really unfortunate when people don't read posts and just respond in a reactionary way.

It seems to me your posts are still from a defensive position as if defending Gasol's honor against some kind of unfair attack. When the impetus of the original post early on was not that at all, but rather a plea to make use of all of Pau's versatile abilities, actually complimenting his skills to a large degree, and to suggest that the coach wasn't doing that and was hurting his effectiveness by restricting him to one certain thing that he actually wasn't that great at anymore.

A true fan of a player would want that player used in the best way possible. And everyone else has come around to that we are now doing that.

At the time there was no debate about how he was being used (primarily in the post, hardly any PnR and PnP) the only actual debate was if he was doing well in that role. Like you earlier, some people at the time were simply unable to find the correct numbers to see the truth as the best they had were generic distance stats that would give the impression he was succeeding all over. But when we broke it down we saw that not to be the case.

This should not have been a surprise though, as when synergy stats were readily available, we know for a fact the last two year's Pau was not particularly efficient on post ups. There would be no reason to expect otherwise here with him a year older. And we can still find that out it just takes a bit more work. Which upon doing, the numbers show the same trend has continued. This is nothing to get upset about, or in someone pointing out. A fact is not an attack on a player.

So the concern was never with 'where' Pau was scoring, i.e the paint or the block, but rather 'how' he was scoring. Meaning on what type of plays and his effectiveness at them. That is why all the stats you threw out about usage and FG% miss the point. They are a amalgamation of every shot type and don't get to the specifics of the original complaint.

Thankfully Thibs saw the results before too much longer and changed things around. Since then Pau has turned things around, and so has the offense. It only takes watching the games, or even reading the game threads to see the improvement in the offense that resulted, dozens of posters have commented on it. Including most everyone else who was on the other side at the time.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#377 » by Sugarless » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:32 am

Off topic, let's stay on it from now on - Re

Regarding Pau, there's no need for anyone to defend him, as I'd say he's doing quite well this year on his own. You are completely missing the point of my posts, as what I've done is to refute a number of points that have been brought up earlier -in a rather disrepectful manner, I may say- and proven to be wrong, cause you chose to overreact to a bad stretch of a couple weeks in December. You can see that looking at the numbers (his efficiency can't be anything more than average, you argued), knowing the guy (the assists on the first month, the fact his eFG% gets better with the season) and of course watching the games, which I hardly have missed any at all.

You want to show you can take the high road while you insist once again on your preferred topic, how you broke down his type of shots two months ago and how they're not killing 5-6 seconds on the clock now with him on the low block (which is false, he's still milking the ball down there, he just finds cutters and guys on the perimeter more often now when the double team comes, which is a big part of his increase in assists)? Fine, I told you I won't trip on the same stone again, you can go on as you were.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#378 » by Rerisen » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:10 am

Regarding Pau, there's no need for anyone to defend him, as I'd say he's doing quite well this year on his own. You are completely missing the point of my posts, as what I've done is to refute a number of points that have been brought up earlier -in a rather disrepectful manner, I may say- and proven to be wrong, cause you chose to overreact to a bad stretch of a couple weeks in December. You can see that looking at the numbers (his efficiency can't be anything more than average, you argued), knowing the guy (the assists on the first month, the fact his eFG% gets better with the season) and of course watching the games, which I hardly have missed any at all.

You want to show you can take the high road while you insist once again on your preferred topic, how you broke down his type of shots two months ago and how they're not killing 5-6 seconds on the clock now with him on the low block (which is false, he's still milking the ball down there, he just finds cutters and guys on the perimeter more often now when the double team comes, which is a big part of his increase in assists)? Fine, I told you I won't trip on the same stone again, you can go on as you were.


I can't help the stats, they speak for themselves. Gasol is nothing more than than an average post player anymore and has been for 3 years now. Why pointing that out is offensive I don't know. If the numbers said he was great, then I would say he was great, pretty simple.

But what I do know is I don't want my team doing something sub-optimal and we were.

Yeah we still post him up now, and yeah he still takes too long sometimes, but thankfully we are more careful about when and how much we do that. And like I said, its still a quality play in certain matchups, just not every game, start the 1st quarter giving him iso's repeatedly and repeating it throughout regardless of the defensive opponent. That was simply dumb and not successful.

That was pretty much the meat and potatoes of my take on Gasol. Use him in what he's best at. Or at least use all the tools he has to help a team, we were not doing that. Now we are.
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Re: PG: Bulls depose Kings 

Post#379 » by High level » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:47 am

Anyone notice how we are a much better team without Hinrich. I really want thibs to play Snell and dougie more and less hinrich..Snell Doug and dunlevy are our floor spacers and it makes life a lot easier for Rose Gasol and Butler and the bulls

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