Noah or Taj?

[Rerisen]

By the numbers, the Bulls are .9 pts BETTER defensively when D. Rose is on the court. And this is despite playing most of his minutes with Pau Gasol on the floor. I think D. Rose's defensive shortcomings, like a lot things about Rose, are simply overstated.

Keep in mind his main backup is Brooks, who is atrocious.

When Rose is giving any effort at all, he's much better than Brooks, and when trying his best, leagues better.

[burlydee]

In response to the original point of this post...

Noah right now hurts the team more than he helps. The Bulls are better defensively when he is on the court, but much worse offensively. Last year Noah got a chance to be the creator. But with Rose back and Jimmy taking a leading role (not to mention Pau) his role on offense is much more as a finisher. And he's failing at that, only hitting 43.7% of his shots. Worst for any center in the NBA. And he's getting open looks b/c of the way different defenses simply blitz Rose and Jimmy.

I'm of the mind that you let Noah play out his contract and than you either let him walk or you bring him back at a reduced salary (*which may be the same as the current salary, as long as it takes up less a percentage of your cap space.) He is the heart of the team and I think he will be effective later in his career if he takes a reduced role.

However, if Noah's defense doesn't turn around and if you think his injury is the type that will hamper his effectiveness going forward, you may consider trading him while you can. He won't have any value after he signs his next contract. Maybe a team desperate to turn it around quickly gives you something you can use. Noah for Asik and a pick or something like that.

[burlydee]

By the numbers, the Bulls are .9 pts BETTER defensively when D. Rose is on the court. And this is despite playing most of his minutes with Pau Gasol on the floor. I think D. Rose's defensive shortcomings, like a lot things about Rose, are simply overstated.

Keep in mind his main backup is Brooks, who is atrocious.

When Rose is giving any effort at all, he's much better than Brooks, and when trying his best, leagues better.

The point is that the Bulls aren't some sort of horrible trainwreck on defense when Rose takes the court. There have been a number of guys who have good reputations (ahem - Butler - ahem) who have turned in some weak performances on that end. Rose inconsistency on offense and defense has been problematic, but he is no way near as bad as he was as a rookie, and defensively I do think he has improved as the season has gone on.

[Rerisen]

The point is that the Bulls aren't some sort of horrible trainwreck on defense when Rose takes the court. There have been a number of guys who have good reputations (ahem - Butler - ahem) who have turned in some weak performances on that end. Rose inconsistency on offense and defense has been problematic, but he is no way near as bad as he was as a rookie, and defensively I do think he has improved as the season has gone on.

I don't think he's as bad as he was as a rookie overall either, maybe his worst few games, but its more just total inconsistency with him, in every single part of his game.

Weirdest thing its not just the muscle memory but also the mental memory that seems damaged. Almost as if he has amnesia and has to relearn how to apply his game and style of play in every area. Some nights you see a jolt of recognition, he is making the right passes, playing the right defense - its all still in there in his head - but other games, its as if its all forgotten and he's just going out there reckless without a clue.

[Mech Engineer]

By the numbers, the Bulls are .9 pts BETTER defensively when D. Rose is on the court. And this is despite playing most of his minutes with Pau Gasol on the floor. I think D. Rose's defensive shortcomings, like a lot things about Rose, are simply overstated.

Keep in mind his main backup is Brooks, who is atrocious.

When Rose is giving any effort at all, he's much better than Brooks, and when trying his best, leagues better.

The point is that the Bulls aren't some sort of horrible trainwreck on defense when Rose takes the court. There have been a number of guys who have good reputations (ahem - Butler - ahem) who have turned in some weak performances on that end. Rose inconsistency on offense and defense has been problematic, but he is no way near as bad as he was as a rookie, and defensively I do think he has improved as the season has gone on.

Yeah...I agree. Even if Derrick can be better on defense, we have seen he can play well on defense when he wants. IMO, all players have excuses for not giving 100% on defense until now. Derrick is coming back and has to readjust himself mentally for long periods of time to play defense. Jimmy is asked to provide more on offense and that means he has to take it easy on defense sometimes. Pau is just not capable of playing defense while Noah is still recovering.

They need their minutes to get their offense in rhythm more than defense even if everyone speaks/whines about it. The last thing you want is Jimmy or Derrick getting hurt because they get screened badly by somebody like Nene.

[Ice Man]

Most everyone was talking about how long it would take Rose to get back and being patient. Yet it appears Noah is supposed to come back immediately and have that knee carry around his 7' frame just fine.

I agree with the rest of your analysis ... but not here. You've moved the benchmark bigtime. The near-unanimous consensus on this board was that if the minor knee surgery affected him at all, it would be early in the season. Anybody suggesting that he would be slowed by it in late February would have been mocked as a "hater."

I am not making predictions as to what level he will reach, just saying it's not a very good defense of Noah given than Noah fans wouldn't hear a word of that several months back. Believe me I tried -- and I got whacked for it.

[Ice Man]

And he's failing at that, only hitting 43.7% of his shots. Worst for any center in the NBA. And he's getting open looks b/c of the way different defenses simply blitz Rose and Jimmy.

A side note, but the typical argument that Player X will improve if surrounded by better teammates isn't anywhere near as correct as it seems. Look at Noah. Last year the focal point. This year allegedly should benefit from the huge additions of Rose and the All-Star version of Jimmy. But he is less efficient offensively, not worse. And that to me doesn't seem all that related to his knee ... the knee seems mostly to be a problem for his defensive agility, not so much on where he is on offense.

[Wont PerDont]

For the record, Mirotic's main lineup paired with Gasol is +37 plus/minus per 100 this year. Seems like they are playing defense just fine.

I think what we may not want to face up to is the Bulls may never have an elite defense again with Joakim Noah's knee the way it is. We've had Noah and Taj here all season and it hasn't improved, its actually backslid some vs early on, and even those two specifically have no longer been a dominant defensive pairing.

Having extra players of similar value beyond the point of the minutes being filled really doesn't improve your team that much. You are just sliding around deck chairs on the titanic because they are all decently effective but none are superstars. You would improve far more choosing one of your worst productive rotation spots and upgrading there.

A lot was made of the Bulls depth this year, but it was wrong. The Bulls don't have 'team depth' they have over-depth in one area, and under-depth in another area. That is not Spurs like at all.

The "main unit" with Niko and Gasol have played a total of less than one NBA game together. Do you seriously believe the numbers from those moments together say anything?

Honestly Gasol and Niko shouldn't really be taken into consideration regarding the Bulls roster choices. Pau is too old, too bad at defense, too cheap and with only one more year under contract and us not having won squat with him, I view him as a gravy guy. Whatever he can give us is a bonus.

Niko meanwhile is too young, too cheap and too unproven to be penciled in for a prominent role.

If I were Thibbs and I kept my job and didn't win the title this year, I'd start next year with Pau and Taj on the bench, with minutes about like this:

5: Noah 28, Pau 20
4: Niko 20, Taj 28

It's not that complicated.

We've got 4 guys. None are super star impact guys and none are super expensive like Rose. None need to play or be entitled to playing more than about half the game. 2 are offense first, two are defense first.

I support Thibbs Noah/Gasol pairing for the moment because there is some wisdom giving the two most proven and biggest guys one chance to win. Fine. If it doesn't work, I'd bench Gasol next year unless Noah is physically in bad shape. And of course start Niko with him but play Taj more minutes.

C'mon...It's a bit more complicated than you make it out to be here, don't you think?

You're suggesting benching the starting center for the Eastern Conference All Star team and the league's 3rd leading rebounder and double-double guy. And not just benching him, but cutting his minutes nearly in half in lieu of an inconsistent rookie who not only has had issues staying in the current rotation, but seems to be playing worse instead of better as the season progresses?

I think you are creating a situation that is going to be a bit more "complicated" than you make it out to be. I mean, this is the real world we are talking about (and not your fantasy team). On what planet do you think this is going to be ok w/not just Gasol, but the rest of the team? I'd be interested as to what you would tell everyone (as the coach) prior to making this brilliant, "uncomplicated" move? I mean, you have the team's most consistent front court player going from All Star starter to most marginalized player in the rotation? REALLY?!? Did Pau sleep w/your girl or something? To explain your plan away as "not that complicated" makes me feel like you haven't really thought this through.

[League Circles]

For the record, Mirotic's main lineup paired with Gasol is +37 plus/minus per 100 this year. Seems like they are playing defense just fine.

I think what we may not want to face up to is the Bulls may never have an elite defense again with Joakim Noah's knee the way it is. We've had Noah and Taj here all season and it hasn't improved, its actually backslid some vs early on, and even those two specifically have no longer been a dominant defensive pairing.

Having extra players of similar value beyond the point of the minutes being filled really doesn't improve your team that much. You are just sliding around deck chairs on the titanic because they are all decently effective but none are superstars. You would improve far more choosing one of your worst productive rotation spots and upgrading there.

A lot was made of the Bulls depth this year, but it was wrong. The Bulls don't have 'team depth' they have over-depth in one area, and under-depth in another area. That is not Spurs like at all.

The "main unit" with Niko and Gasol have played a total of less than one NBA game together. Do you seriously believe the numbers from those moments together say anything?

Honestly Gasol and Niko shouldn't really be taken into consideration regarding the Bulls roster choices. Pau is too old, too bad at defense, too cheap and with only one more year under contract and us not having won squat with him, I view him as a gravy guy. Whatever he can give us is a bonus.

Niko meanwhile is too young, too cheap and too unproven to be penciled in for a prominent role.

If I were Thibbs and I kept my job and didn't win the title this year, I'd start next year with Pau and Taj on the bench, with minutes about like this:

5: Noah 28, Pau 20
4: Niko 20, Taj 28

It's not that complicated.

We've got 4 guys. None are super star impact guys and none are super expensive like Rose. None need to play or be entitled to playing more than about half the game. 2 are offense first, two are defense first.

I support Thibbs Noah/Gasol pairing for the moment because there is some wisdom giving the two most proven and biggest guys one chance to win. Fine. If it doesn't work, I'd bench Gasol next year unless Noah is physically in bad shape. And of course start Niko with him but play Taj more minutes.

C'mon...It's a bit more complicated than you make it out to be here, don't you think?

You're suggesting benching the starting center for the Eastern Conference All Star team and the league's 3rd leading rebounder and double-double guy. And not just benching him, but cutting his minutes nearly in half in lieu of an inconsistent rookie who not only has had issues staying in the current rotation, but seems to be playing worse instead of better as the season progresses?

I think you are creating a situation that is going to be a bit more "complicated" than you make it out to be. I mean, this is the real world we are talking about (and not your fantasy team). On what planet do you think this is going to be ok w/not just Gasol, but the rest of the team? I'd be interested as to what you would tell everyone (as the coach) prior to making this brilliant, "uncomplicated" move? I mean, you have the team's most consistent front court player going from All Star starter to most marginalized player in the rotation? REALLY?!? Did Pau sleep w/your girl or something? To explain your plan away as "not that complicated" makes me feel like you haven't really thought this through.

Maybe I clarified this in another post instead of this one but this is in a scenario where we fail in the playoffs and one of the obvious reasons is Pau getting killed on D. IF that's the case, then yeah I think it's not that complicated. Pau isn't going to get better next year. I guess he could play 24 mpg, but if we fail with him and Noah starting I want it changed for next year. If he's sour about it he can opt out after next year.

[Alswank87]

I would deal Gibson and would have dealt him and his deal already when he was playing better. People forget he's older for his draft class. He'll be 30 when next season begins.

He also doesn't give you more than Noah. I like his effort, but he's expendable (technically so is everyone on the Bulls roster). Noah just does more and brings more to the table and the locker room.

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't expect a ton in a deal. Other GMs know what Taj is now and that's a large cap number for a backup. Another Pax over loving his own guy and holding on too long and paying too much. Maybe a future 1st rounder that's heavily protected, a bench player and a garbage contract that expires at the end of next season is what you'd hope to get. It might be less.

I like Taj too and I like most of the guys the Bulls tend to have on the roster (there are a few exceptions) but you need to look at the big picture. However, I assume Taj will be here til his deal is close to ending and then get moved like Luol Deng or Kirk Hinrich. Pax just simply does not like to deal away his guys.

Taj could start for several teams. I personally think he is incredibly underrated. It's a travesty to me that the bulls never gave him a fair shot to start. They went out and got boozer on a big contract, which basically made it so taj had to be the sixth man. Then this offseason thibs tells him he's going to start and what does the front office do? They throw a ton of money at Pau to come start over him and then bring over Mirotic. I feel sorry for the guy. I kind of want him to get traded so he can go elsewhere and show what he's got as a starter because he will never be that with the bulls. Once Pau leaves, Mirotic will start over him and taj is no center.

As for Noah, I appreciate his time with the bulls, especially last year. However injuries are starting to take their toll on him. He might still have a good year or two left in him, but his shelf life is getting shorter. Honestly, I would trade him over taj. Noah can't seem to figure out how to play with Pau either.

When did Thibs tell Taj he would start? That story has grown from Taj having a discussion with an assistant about what it would take for him to be a starter, to this legend that the Bulls and Thibs told him he was the starter. I keep asking for a source but no one can give me one.

I guess I'm not sure if thibs told him, but here is a source....

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/05/23/ ... xt-season/

But then on further review, there was this report.

http://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/201 ... boozer-out

Good call, but i still think he deserved an opportunity to start.

[ADDinChicago]

Taj Gibsons deserved a chance to start... until Pau Gasol decided to come here.

End of discussion.

[coldfish]

By the numbers, the Bulls are .9 pts BETTER defensively when D. Rose is on the court. And this is despite playing most of his minutes with Pau Gasol on the floor. I think D. Rose's defensive shortcomings, like a lot things about Rose, are simply overstated.

As I have been saying, the +/- stuff for Rose is misleading. There are two other PG's. Hinrich, whom everyone hates and Brooks who is just awful at defense and was picked up for the vet min because no team in the NBA wanted to give him a real contract.

Despite this, Rose really doesn't have some huge +/- number. When he is replaced by these scrubs, the team doesn't suffer for it. Technically, Brooks is better than Rose in most statistical measures.

This is not a good thing.

[Stratmaster]

Most everyone was talking about how long it would take Rose to get back and being patient. Yet it appears Noah is supposed to come back immediately and have that knee carry around his 7' frame just fine.

I agree with the rest of your analysis ... but not here. You've moved the benchmark bigtime. The near-unanimous consensus on this board was that if the minor knee surgery affected him at all, it would be early in the season. Anybody suggesting that he would be slowed by it in late February would have been mocked as a "hater."

I am not making predictions as to what level he will reach, just saying it's not a very good defense of Noah given than Noah fans wouldn't hear a word of that several months back. Believe me I tried -- and I got whacked for it.

I know what you are saying. Unfortunately, this board doesn't have many, if any, knee surgeons on it. We all think we are experts because we have read way too many DRose articles.

[Stratmaster]

Taj could start for several teams. I personally think he is incredibly underrated. It's a travesty to me that the bulls never gave him a fair shot to start. They went out and got boozer on a big contract, which basically made it so taj had to be the sixth man. Then this offseason thibs tells him he's going to start and what does the front office do? They throw a ton of money at Pau to come start over him and then bring over Mirotic. I feel sorry for the guy. I kind of want him to get traded so he can go elsewhere and show what he's got as a starter because he will never be that with the bulls. Once Pau leaves, Mirotic will start over him and taj is no center.

As for Noah, I appreciate his time with the bulls, especially last year. However injuries are starting to take their toll on him. He might still have a good year or two left in him, but his shelf life is getting shorter. Honestly, I would trade him over taj. Noah can't seem to figure out how to play with Pau either.

When did Thibs tell Taj he would start? That story has grown from Taj having a discussion with an assistant about what it would take for him to be a starter, to this legend that the Bulls and Thibs told him he was the starter. I keep asking for a source but no one can give me one.

I guess I'm not sure if thibs told him, but here is a source....

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/05/23/ ... xt-season/

But then on further review, there was this report.

http://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/201 ... boozer-out

Good call, but i still think he deserved an opportunity to start.

I think Taj has been played exactly the way he should have been from a starting and minutes standpoint. However, I understand why you and others think differently. I think a championship quality team has Taj Gibson as 6th man, not starting PF, but that is just my opinion.

I don;t think anyone on the Bulls would promise a player a starting spot in the Bulls circumstance. Only thibs could do that, and he could have only done it after all the off-season trading and free agent business was done. I feel like there is this narrative that the bulls lied to Taj, and I don't believe that. Taj had a good chance at starting if no moves had been made though and I can understand why he would be disappointed and that a lot of fans wanted to see it.

[Stratmaster]

There's that damned Noah scoreless in his first 14 minutes tonight. Of course he has 8 rebounds, two assists, but those don;t count. they aren't points.

[League Circles]

If snell keeps playing somewhat like he has, this is a non issue especially if we re-sign mdj. Those two plus mcd and niko if needed are plenty at sf.

Then we can draft BPA. Well, really what we need is a super big C with a good attitude.

[Ice Man]

There's that damned Noah scoreless in his first 14 minutes tonight. Of course he has 8 rebounds, two assists, but those don;t count. they aren't points.

I don't think many are arguing that he had a bad game last night. It was one of the better efforts he has had this season, in fact. If that is the Noah we have for the playoffs, I'd be delighted -- and so surely would Thibs.

[JordansBulls]

Trade both for Melo.

Quit trolling

What do you mean? This trade helps us.

[pelanas]

Hi everybody. First of all, sorry for my poor english. I'm a spanish (from Spain) Bulls supporter and this is my first post and I'm honoured to take part. I've been reading this forum since the begining of this season and I thank all of you for enhancing my games watching experience. Regarding the topic, I must confess that I have hardly followed Bulls last seasons, but since Bulls signed 2 spanish players last summer (gasol and mirotic, who has double nationality because since he was a teen he's lived in Spain and has played all his career in Europe for Real Madrid) I've watched most of this season Bulls games. So, from that "short perspective" of mine I think that Taj is the one to be traded. By a process of elimination:
- Noah. Well, watching this years games I find difficult to imagine how he could be the DPOY last year. It's surprinsing (not only for me but also for many people in european forums) how such a limited player in offense has reached such a succesful career in the NBA. Don't get me wrong, it's more praise than criticism. I like the guy and it seems that it's been the heart of the team in the last years. If so, I think he deserves to be a Bulls player until he decides to quit, as far as his salary is not detrimental to the team. Right now, his salary is disproportionated for the player he is this year. Anyway, I think he will be able to improve his performance this season and probably next season too if he gets healthier.
- Mirotic. He will improve and his value will increase for sure. He could be a very important player for Chicago Bulls. However, having said that, I don't understand very well the sooo-high expectactions around him that a lot of people in this forum seem to have. Here, I probably have a better perspective, since I've been watching him playing the last years in Spain. He's been a good player in a top european team, no more than that, and he's 23, so he's no that young. I'd rather be wrong, but I don't see him as a future (senior) all-star player.
-Gasol. I can't be impartial here. I know that with Gasol there's always to be haters. But all his previous teams improved after signing him. He deserves more credit. His defense is not worse than Noah's offense IMO. Anyway, you'll "suffer" Gasol no more than 2 more years, and his minutes probably will go down. With his salary and age, impossible to find something better in return.

So... Taj. Today, I think he is the easiest player to replace taking into account sports, emotional and market factors.