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White/Lavine Staring Backcourt

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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#41 » by sco » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:44 am

MrSparkle wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
What’s even worse... with the volume of wide open looks...is at least half the guys were considered ‘good’ shooters, earning their reputation and money with shooting , not defense, rebounding or intangibles.

Lauri
Sato
Coby
Kornet
Valentine

Mokoka and Arci lead the team for the year.



I've been rewatching the games and watching them again, it seems like the biggest problem with the offense is there is no offensive system. Boylen put all his eggs in the blitzing defense basket and for offense he took the analytics mandate and implemented "pass the ball, only take 3s and layups" without any nuance.

The offense should have been heavy on Lauri/Lavine in the first few games. Instead it was "equal balance". That's why everyone's post game interview was usually "we are trying to find our offensive role".

That's why the offense devolved into Lavine/Coby iso ball
during tough situations and only those two had "good" years and not down years like everyone else. This team was like top 3 youngest in the league! They need a structure and need to learn how to win. Not to be thrown into the fire to just make things happen.

Then add in the tough defense that was too unbalanced (easy bucket for the other team if not everyone is tuned on a string) and didn't cater to 90% of our players (you need lengthy wings to play that type of defense...instead we downsized to 3 guard rotations)


Yep.

It really was the most inane thing I’d ever seen. Given his positive words for his players’ off-season... You’d think Boylen would take what worked in March, look at his personnel, consider the age of his players and shape a system that would be both good for their development and also make use of their depth, shooting ability, big men skills and offensive IQ.

Somehow, that turned into totally irrational expectations from guys like Lauri, Sato, Coby, Wendell and Thad.

Eliminate IQ from the equation (blitz D and 3P bomb without dribble penetration or movement, lol). Sato, Lauri became scarecrows? Lauri and Wendell were asked to become young Draymond on D. Zach and Coby were asked to play like James Harden. Thad was asked to abandon everything that made him a decent 10y pro in favor of attempting to mimic Durant’s role.

It kind of makes me think of why Doug Collins was always a mediocre coach. The “give MJ the ball and get out the way” approach kinda sucks. Let alone when it’s Zach and rookie Coby.

IMO, the tough defense/ISO offense is probably the quickest way to turn around regular seasons wins/losses. That said it requires 2 things to be successful - a great scoring guard and 4 great defenders. I think about those Rose led Bulls and the Iverson led 76'ers as examples. The Bulls had neither last season. And that system usually falters in the playoffs.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#42 » by scottyg » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:52 pm

If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#43 » by TheSuzerain » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:03 pm

You guys don't actually think prime Nash would struggle to average 10-11 assists on this team right?

Huge part of the offensive problem is that regardless of scheme or what Boylen is telling them, your offense is going to garbage if you have zero capable playmakers in the starting line-up. Our guards stink at creating for others and playing team basketball. Sato is the only one who can play that kind of ball, but he's supposed to be the 4th or 5th guy.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#44 » by Jvaughn » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:23 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:You guys don't actually think prime Nash would struggle to average 10-11 assists on this team right?

Huge part of the offensive problem is that regardless of scheme or what Boylen is telling them, your offense is going to garbage if you have zero capable playmakers in the starting line-up. Our guards stink at creating for others and playing team basketball. Sato is the only one who can play that kind of ball, but he's supposed to be the 4th or 5th guy.


Exactly. People are forgetting that Nash averaged double digits assists with Channing Frye as his second leading scorer. A good guard can definitely change our offense entirely.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#45 » by Jvaughn » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 pm

scottyg wrote:If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!


What kind of playmaking are you talking about? Because you're going to get a lot of iso ball with no shooting out of a DeRozan.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#46 » by Little Nathan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:34 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
scottyg wrote:If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!


What kind of playmaking are you talking about? Because you're going to get a lot of iso ball with no shooting out of a DeRozan.


He's an improved playmaker, I'll give him that, but yeah, he's a non-shooter, loves his iso-game and a terrible defender. No thanks.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#47 » by scottyg » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Well he has averaged over 5 assist the last 3 years and if we can make a trade to get a stretch 5 like Vucevic then this lineup is hard to guard,

Coby white
Lavine
Derozan
Markannen
Vucevic
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#48 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:25 pm

Jvaughn wrote:
scottyg wrote:If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!


What kind of playmaking are you talking about? Because you're going to get a lot of iso ball with no shooting out of a DeRozan.



Otto Porter is a better shooter for sure and likely an equal playmaker for about the same money I would assume. OPJ durability is obviously in question
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#49 » by StunnerKO » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm

https://youtu.be/xS2jKRnW8_E



https://youtu.be/bhA9aNqO_QY


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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#50 » by MrSparkle » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:40 pm

sco wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:

I've been rewatching the games and watching them again, it seems like the biggest problem with the offense is there is no offensive system. Boylen put all his eggs in the blitzing defense basket and for offense he took the analytics mandate and implemented "pass the ball, only take 3s and layups" without any nuance.

The offense should have been heavy on Lauri/Lavine in the first few games. Instead it was "equal balance". That's why everyone's post game interview was usually "we are trying to find our offensive role".

That's why the offense devolved into Lavine/Coby iso ball
during tough situations and only those two had "good" years and not down years like everyone else. This team was like top 3 youngest in the league! They need a structure and need to learn how to win. Not to be thrown into the fire to just make things happen.

Then add in the tough defense that was too unbalanced (easy bucket for the other team if not everyone is tuned on a string) and didn't cater to 90% of our players (you need lengthy wings to play that type of defense...instead we downsized to 3 guard rotations)


Yep.

It really was the most inane thing I’d ever seen. Given his positive words for his players’ off-season... You’d think Boylen would take what worked in March, look at his personnel, consider the age of his players and shape a system that would be both good for their development and also make use of their depth, shooting ability, big men skills and offensive IQ.

Somehow, that turned into totally irrational expectations from guys like Lauri, Sato, Coby, Wendell and Thad.

Eliminate IQ from the equation (blitz D and 3P bomb without dribble penetration or movement, lol). Sato, Lauri became scarecrows? Lauri and Wendell were asked to become young Draymond on D. Zach and Coby were asked to play like James Harden. Thad was asked to abandon everything that made him a decent 10y pro in favor of attempting to mimic Durant’s role.

It kind of makes me think of why Doug Collins was always a mediocre coach. The “give MJ the ball and get out the way” approach kinda sucks. Let alone when it’s Zach and rookie Coby.

IMO, the tough defense/ISO offense is probably the quickest way to turn around regular seasons wins/losses. That said it requires 2 things to be successful - a great scoring guard and 4 great defenders. I think about those Rose led Bulls and the Iverson led 76'ers as examples. The Bulls had neither last season. And that system usually falters in the playoffs.


That’s true if you have a Rose or Iverson. I personally thought it was ridiculous even attempting to make Zach that guy. He’s not a coast-to-coast scorer. Rose, Iverson, Westbrook... these guys always had defenses back-pedaling. Zach dribbles into traps and launches contested fade-aways.

I thought the Skiles 04/05 Bulls were a pretty apt comparison for what Jim could’ve done, what with all the small combo guards and trad. big men. But again, my reasoning was most the team (except Zach) came from a high IQ college, NBA or international systems, like those 04/05 guys. I wasn’t expecting a great year, but I certainly didn’t expect the Bulls dumpster fire of the decade. I did relish in Pax burning out and thankfully stepping down... but Easily the worst season since 07/08, when you consider the talent/goals/expectations (and considering 17-19 we’re intentional rebuild lottery rosters).

Jim gambled all in on a system that was a terrible fit, and kept the fire burning until the week before Covid shutdown. :lol:
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#51 » by Little Nathan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:48 pm

scottyg wrote:Coby white
Lavine
Derozan
Markannen
Vucevic


This lineup makes me want to cry. They have somehow missed 50 defensive rotations while I was typing this.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#52 » by FriedRise » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:51 pm

We need somebody like CP3 or Kyle Lowry to make this offense hum. But unfortunately that will mean moving Coby to the bench.

If we wanna keep starting Coby, we look for a Point Forward like LeBron, Luka, or Ben Simmons but obviously they're much harder and rarer to get. Even Lonzo Ball would've been a nice addition.. and oddly enough, he would've improved our 3PT shooting because his % for the season would've been top 3 on this team (tied with LaVine on similar volume).
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#53 » by MrSparkle » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:10 pm

scottyg wrote:Well he has averaged over 5 assist the last 3 years and if we can make a trade to get a stretch 5 like Vucevic then this lineup is hard to guard,

Coby white
Lavine
Derozan
Markannen
Vucevic


You know, Vuc is someone who was off my radar cause Orlando keeps treading, but frankly, he’d potentially be an incredibly brilliant pickup if bought low.

Pros:
- 29yo and locked up to a really reasonable salary (it was front-loaded)
- Proven all star
- Has the frame to defend centers in a C revitalized league, but he also does his damage on offense.
- We have Gafford to sub for D.

Otto, Sato, 2021 FRP swap (so #4 for #15, for example) for Vuc and Ross? I’d take it. Honestly, I don’t care for this draft. I’m just as intrigued with late picks like Balsaro as the red flag top-10s. If it’s 7-10 I’m ok just giving it to ORL with no swap.

Then follow up with a Wendell trade (maybe for a future FRP).

Coby & the Arci/Shaq/Dunn pie
Zach Mok
Ross Hutch
Lauri Thad
Vuc Gaff
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#54 » by Little Nathan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:11 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
scottyg wrote:Well he has averaged over 5 assist the last 3 years and if we can make a trade to get a stretch 5 like Vucevic then this lineup is hard to guard,

Coby white
Lavine
Derozan
Markannen
Vucevic


You know, Vuc is someone who was off my radar cause Orlando keeps treading, but frankly, he’d potentially be an incredibly brilliant pickup if bought low.

Pros:
- 29yo and locked up to a really reasonable salary (it was front-loaded)
- Proven all star
- Has the frame to defend centers in a C revitalized league, but he also does his damage on offense.
- We have Gafford to sub for D.

Otto, Sato, 2021 FRP swap (so #4 for #15, for example) for Vuc and Ross? I’d take it. Honestly, I don’t care for this draft. I’m just as intrigued with late picks like Balsaro as the red flag top-10s. If it’s 7-10 I’m ok just giving it to ORL with no swap.

Then follow up with a Wendell trade (maybe for a future FRP).

Coby & the Arci/Shaq/Dunn pie
Zach Mok
Ross Hutch
Lauri Thad
Vuc Gaff

So we give up any flexibilty we have in 2021 to be a worse version of this years' Magic team? Yikes.

Vucevic is not worth his contract. He's basically what you get when you order Nikola Jokic on Wish. Ross is overpaid, too.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#55 » by mack2354 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:01 pm

I think they can be competitive together. I envision other scoring guard duo's like Lilliard/C.J. Mccollum and Wall/Beal. Neither of those duo's have proven to be title contenders so the Bulls will likely need a third star to help them if they are ever going to be better than a middle of the pack team. For entertainment value alone, I would like to see White and Lavine together for the foreseeable future.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#56 » by TeamMan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:19 pm

mack2354 wrote:I think they can be competitive together. I envision other scoring guard duo's like Lilliard/C.J. Mccollum and Wall/Beal. Neither of those duo's have proven to be title contenders so the Bulls will likely need a third star to help them if they are ever going to be better than a middle of the pack team. For entertainment value alone, I would like to see White and Lavine together for the foreseeable future.

The ultimate success story with the Warriors clicked when they added Draymond Green.

I don't actually know the players in the draft that well, but defensive minded players often drop in the draft.

Last year the Bulls got Gafford in the 2nd round, so who knows what kind of talent they could come up with this year's 1st round pick.

We'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#57 » by PaKii94 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:39 pm

After rewatching some of these games, I have a lot more hope for Coby. When he was used as a PG and his reigns let loose, he was a positive on the floor. Hopefully Lavine is ready to give up on-ball duties.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#58 » by MrSparkle » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:19 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
scottyg wrote:Well he has averaged over 5 assist the last 3 years and if we can make a trade to get a stretch 5 like Vucevic then this lineup is hard to guard,

Coby white
Lavine
Derozan
Markannen
Vucevic


You know, Vuc is someone who was off my radar cause Orlando keeps treading, but frankly, he’d potentially be an incredibly brilliant pickup if bought low.

Pros:
- 29yo and locked up to a really reasonable salary (it was front-loaded)
- Proven all star
- Has the frame to defend centers in a C revitalized league, but he also does his damage on offense.
- We have Gafford to sub for D.

Otto, Sato, 2021 FRP swap (so #4 for #15, for example) for Vuc and Ross? I’d take it. Honestly, I don’t care for this draft. I’m just as intrigued with late picks like Balsaro as the red flag top-10s. If it’s 7-10 I’m ok just giving it to ORL with no swap.

Then follow up with a Wendell trade (maybe for a future FRP).

Coby & the Arci/Shaq/Dunn pie
Zach Mok
Ross Hutch
Lauri Thad
Vuc Gaff

So we give up any flexibilty we have in 2021 to be a worse version of this years' Magic team? Yikes.

Vucevic is not worth his contract. He's basically what you get when you order Nikola Jokic on Wish. Ross is overpaid, too.


Well I do think there’s a difference between having a bad offensive team with no defense (the 17-20 Bulls) and a very good offensive team with poor defense. Vuc is a confident 20/10 with a smart passing game. To be fair, Coby/Zach/Lauri project better than Fultz, Fournier and Gordon. Those 3 provide way more shooting than anybody on the Magic besides Fournier, and simply have more dynamic offensive games.

You can mitigate such a defense with subs like Gafford, Dunn, Thad, Shaq, Hutch, etc. Maybe I rethink the selling of the FRP and taking Ross. I hate being thin on the wings, and Ross isn’t a defensive SF. But i think there’s something to getting Vuc if the cost is Sato and/or Otto.

Honestly, I don’t rationally see a FA prize for the Bulls in 2021. Contending with LAC, LAL, MIA, MIL and GSW (s&t) for Giannis, Davis, Leonard, Lebron, and I suppose Oladipo and George who don’t seem like they’ll recover from their injuries into 1st options. The only long shot scenarios I see are Lebron, Davis or Kawhi have epic fallouts - I’d sooner see them stay in California and drive a trade to the Warriors. No chance I see Giannis driving an hour south to **** on his Bucks fan base. If he leaves, it’s for an ocean beach mansion.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#59 » by Rose2Boozer » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:56 pm

scottyg wrote:If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!


With Lavine and White starting in the backcourt, the starting line up really could use a point forward. I don't think DeRozan is that guy though.
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Re: White/Lavine Staring Backcourt 

Post#60 » by sco » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:16 am

Rose2Boozer wrote:
scottyg wrote:If I’m starting Coby White I would like to trade for Derozan for some playmaking from the wing spot to help take the pressure off Lavine and white!


With Lavine and White starting in the backcourt, the starting line up really could use a point forward. I don't think DeRozan is that guy though.

Honestly, I think a healthy Otto (if there is such a thing) is a better fit with those two than DeRozan, because Otto gives defense and spacing on offense...DeRozan is more ball dominant and less of a defender. As long as I am imagining healthy Bulls, a line-up of White/Zach/Hutch/Otto/WCJ might be our most effective.
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