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Jamal Murray

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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#41 » by Jordan Syndrome » Wed Sep 2, 2020 1:37 pm

Chi town wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:Murray really isn't this good. His numbers are obviously unsustainable and the bubble is having a huge effect on not just him but shooters as a whole.

The bubble playoffs are basically gonna March Madness some guys' stock, and then everyone will be just shocked that they're actually right back to being the same guys they always were when they're playing a normal schedule in full stadiums again.


Really? I’d like to see the analytics on that.

You think the same for MPJ? He’s not nearly this good?


MPJ was dreadful in this series.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#42 » by Ugly Duckling » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:12 pm

dice wrote:
thedarkstark wrote:I mean they're both pretty inconsistent, I don't really think it's a stretch to say that they're already pretty close. Coby had his 30+ point outbursts off the bench just as Murray is having 50 point outbursts as a starter, but on a given night he's more likely to hover near his regular season average 18ppg.

It's easy to look at what Murray is doing right now and forget about his larger body of work but next year he's going to go right back to being MIA some nights and explosive others.

murray just had the biggest 3 game playoff scoring outburst since MJ in '88...at age 22. could just be a freak occurrence, but i think it's his coming out party...like derrick rose's rookie playoff series against the celtics


Good call dice. Now I'm even more excited about Coby. Let's all stop talking about guys like Hayes and Haliburton. I think we still take Ball if he falls, but trying to draft a PG with a lower upside than the one we have doesn't make sense. Plus we have the man who helped put this Nuggets lineup together. Things are finally looking up
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They're nothing alike. 

Post#43 » by The Box Office » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:13 pm

Stop comparing.

This is foolish. Coby White and Jamal Murray are not the same players. They're their own identity with different IQ and experience. Keep the Haliburton and Hayes talk going.

Also, we don't have a big man who can pass, rebound, and score reliably. Jamal Murray needs Jokic to have success.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#44 » by drosestruts » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:07 pm

I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#45 » by R3AL1TY » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:49 pm

drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.

That's interesting. It goes to show that a player's level of play can be similar to other stars, but it won't have much impact if they're on a roster that isn't good.
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Re: They're nothing alike. 

Post#46 » by Ugly Duckling » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:47 pm

The Box Office wrote:Stop comparing.

This is foolish. Coby White and Jamal Murray are not the same players. They're their own identity with different IQ and experience. Keep the Haliburton and Hayes talk going.

Also, we don't have a big man who can pass, rebound, and score reliably. Jamal Murray needs Jokic to have success.


They're not the same, but their rookie numbers are eerily similar and they're both fast combo guards who can penetrate and shoot. I see some of Murray in White, although Murray's clearly the better player at this point. Ppl doubted Murray after his rookie season. He didn't secure the starting spot until last season. They were starting Mudiay over him. We don't need a big man who can pass (very rare), but we do need a distributer like Jokic. Maybe Avdija can fill that role?
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#47 » by TheFinishSniper » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:59 pm

R3AL1TY wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.

That's interesting. It goes to show that a player's level of play can be similar to other stars, but it won't have much impact if they're on a roster that isn't good.


If Lauri was good as Jokic we would be today in ECF instead watching who we will pick with 4th in weak draft. That's the difference. Guys like Murray and Zach really arent franchise players, they are not moving needle either way really. Sounds weird, but same goes for Booker, KAT and rest of guys who are put in position to be franchise players but arent that. But we knew that already.

I hope Bulls realize that with AK on helm. Because otherwise there are no hope for Bulls. Getting guys like Jokic is key. We had hopes for Lauri but he isnt that and this playoffs shows what kind of guy you truly need.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#48 » by kodo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:16 pm

drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


I'll also throw Donovan Mitchell into the mix.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM
Mitchell: 55.8% TS%, 21.6 AST%, 7.1 TRB%, 1.9 BPM

The #s difference is minimal, the big difference is that Lavine has less competent teammates and a significantly worse coaching situation.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#49 » by TheSuzerain » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:33 pm

Lavine has star-level scoring talent and is very much a peer of Mitchell/Murray in that regard.

But he's worse in other areas like defense (clearly worse than Mitchell) or floor-game/Basketball IQ (clearly worse than both).
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#50 » by Hugi Mancura » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:39 pm

kodo wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


I'll also throw Donovan Mitchell into the mix.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM
Mitchell: 55.8% TS%, 21.6 AST%, 7.1 TRB%, 1.9 BPM

The #s difference is minimal, the big difference is that Lavine has less competent teammates and a significantly worse coaching situation.


There is another big difference and that is defense. Murray actually makes Denver defense better, while both Mitchell and Lavine makes their own teams defense worse. It is much easier to build with Murray because he can defend, but with Mitchell and specially with Lavine, if you want to build a winning team you really have cover up their defensive liabilities.

Coaching does harm Lavine, but it also harms Lavine's team mates.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#51 » by ZOMG » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:28 am

TheFinishSniper wrote:
R3AL1TY wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.

That's interesting. It goes to show that a player's level of play can be similar to other stars, but it won't have much impact if they're on a roster that isn't good.


If Lauri was good as Jokic we would be today in ECF instead watching who we will pick with 4th in weak draft. That's the difference. Guys like Murray and Zach really arent franchise players, they are not moving needle either way really. Sounds weird, but same goes for Booker, KAT and rest of guys who are put in position to be franchise players but arent that. But we knew that already.

I hope Bulls realize that with AK on helm. Because otherwise there are no hope for Bulls. Getting guys like Jokic is key. We had hopes for Lauri but he isnt that and this playoffs shows what kind of guy you truly need.


Guys like Jokic? LOL. Do you realize Jokic has basically dominated the Denver offense from the beginning? He's the hub for EVERYTHING. The job of the rest of the players is to move off the ball like their lives depended on it, including Murray.

Lauri isn't Jokic - nobody is. But the Bulls have never even tried to run things through him by making him cut to the high post and giving him the ball to enable him to be a triple theat. The lane area has always been occupied by a non-shooting 5 or used by Dunn for aimless dribbling adventures.

By the way, what makes you think Zach LaVine would be willing to change his role into an off the ball player if we had somenone like Jokic?
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#52 » by drosereturn » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:12 am

drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


Why are you even comparing stats to justify they are similar? They are nothing alike and in fact polar opposite. White is the best comparison but he is currently homeless mans Murray it might be a blasphemy for denver fans to even bring up the comparison.
Murray is decades ahead of White in terms of shooting efficiency when White is struggling to shoot in the 40s. And White has this weird tunnel vision and shot selection similar to Lavine which seems to have been transferred over to him after playing/watching too much of him. Only as a prospect, I hoped he could have a similar trajectory to Murray, but it looks like hes a 6th man Lou Will.

Lavine is Devin Booker without the bbiq and the efficiency.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#53 » by Ice Man » Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:47 pm

drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


I think that's basically correct. along with the Mitchell comparison that the next poster gave. I'd add DeRozan, too. These are all useful complementary players for good teams. They are a title contender's 3rd best player, and the 2nd best player for a solid team that is not a true contender (like Denver, Utah, or Toronto in the Lowry/DeRozan days).

Of course, the Bulls have been running with Zach as their team's face and best player, and that's not going to work. It's not Zach's fault, though.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#54 » by Stratmaster » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:31 pm

Chi town wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Really? I’d like to see the analytics on that.

You think the same for MPJ? He’s not nearly this good?

I mean, if you really think Jamal Murray playing better than 2016 regular season Steph Curry is sustainable, be my guest.


Of course it’s not sustainable.

It’s your big statement that the “bubble is having a huge effect on shooters as a whole.”

Not saying it’s not trueish. Would love to see the data and the reasons why?
- No fans, less pressure
- Boxed in gym w screens that helps w depth perception
- Noise
- More focus in bubble

All interesting.


I don't know if percentages are up. I know that the bubble game does seem to be all launching 3 point shots, even worse than it already was.

Logically, I think simply shooting on the same court and at the same baskets, game after game, with no crowd variations should improve overall shooting. I know I was a lot better shooter in the gym I always played in versus others. However, all kinds of things that seem logical don't prove out when you look at the numbers so I could be wrong.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#55 » by Stratmaster » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:36 pm

ZOMG wrote:
TheFinishSniper wrote:
R3AL1TY wrote:That's interesting. It goes to show that a player's level of play can be similar to other stars, but it won't have much impact if they're on a roster that isn't good.


If Lauri was good as Jokic we would be today in ECF instead watching who we will pick with 4th in weak draft. That's the difference. Guys like Murray and Zach really arent franchise players, they are not moving needle either way really. Sounds weird, but same goes for Booker, KAT and rest of guys who are put in position to be franchise players but arent that. But we knew that already.

I hope Bulls realize that with AK on helm. Because otherwise there are no hope for Bulls. Getting guys like Jokic is key. We had hopes for Lauri but he isnt that and this playoffs shows what kind of guy you truly need.


Guys like Jokic? LOL. Do you realize Jokic has basically dominated the Denver offense from the beginning? He's the hub for EVERYTHING. The job of the rest of the players is to move off the ball like their lives depended on it, including Murray.

Lauri isn't Jokic - nobody is. But the Bulls have never even tried to run things through him by making him cut to the high post and giving him the ball to enable him to be a triple theat. The lane area has always been occupied by a non-shooting 5 or used by Dunn for aimless dribbling adventures.

By the way, what makes you think Zach LaVine would be willing to change his role into an off the ball player if we had somenone like Jokic?


Lauri isn't a great passer, nor has he shown any signs of having the IQ of a distributor. I am not saying he doesn't have BBIIQ. His BBIQ is based on what his role has always been which is a wing player mentality.

What makes you think Lavine wouldn't love to have a big he could pass it into who could then get the ball back to him for easy shots?
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#56 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:17 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
Chi town wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:I mean, if you really think Jamal Murray playing better than 2016 regular season Steph Curry is sustainable, be my guest.


Of course it’s not sustainable.

It’s your big statement that the “bubble is having a huge effect on shooters as a whole.”

Not saying it’s not trueish. Would love to see the data and the reasons why?
- No fans, less pressure
- Boxed in gym w screens that helps w depth perception
- Noise
- More focus in bubble

All interesting.


I don't know if percentages are up. I know that the bubble game does seem to be all launching 3 point shots, even worse than it already was.

Logically, I think simply shooting on the same court and at the same baskets, game after game, with no crowd variations should improve overall shooting. I know I was a lot better shooter in the gym I always played in versus others. However, all kinds of things that seem logical don't prove out when you look at the numbers so I could be wrong.


Good points on same gym.

Did you play HS or College ball?
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#57 » by drosestruts » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:21 pm

drosereturn wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


Why are you even comparing stats to justify they are similar? They are nothing alike and in fact polar opposite. White is the best comparison but he is currently homeless mans Murray it might be a blasphemy for denver fans to even bring up the comparison.
Murray is decades ahead of White in terms of shooting efficiency when White is struggling to shoot in the 40s. And White has this weird tunnel vision and shot selection similar to Lavine which seems to have been transferred over to him after playing/watching too much of him. Only as a prospect, I hoped he could have a similar trajectory to Murray, but it looks like hes a 6th man Lou Will.

Lavine is Devin Booker without the bbiq and the efficiency.


Well first of all, your name is eerily similar to mine.

Second of all I'm using stats to compare them to show that the things they do on the court are done at similar volumes and effectiveness.

They're both high volume scorers. Not sure how you look at Murray and LaVine and find them to be "polar opposites". I'd be interested in what role you think each is filling on their respective teams and what each player's strengths are.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#58 » by drosestruts » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:24 pm

Ice Man wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I actually think Jamal Murray compares to and aligns to Zach LaVine much more than Coby White.

LaVine: 56.8% TS%, 21.7 AST%, 7.7 TRB%, 2.4 BPM
Murray: 55.9 TS%, 22.9 AST%, 6.9 TRB%, 1.2 BPM

Murray has become a darling of the bubble, while LaVine is still routinely criticized as a non-winning player. To me, they're pretty similar. One difference being Zach has never played with anyone as good as Jokic.


I think that's basically correct. along with the Mitchell comparison that the next poster gave. I'd add DeRozan, too. These are all useful complementary players for good teams. They are a title contender's 3rd best player, and the 2nd best player for a solid team that is not a true contender (like Denver, Utah, or Toronto in the Lowry/DeRozan days).

Of course, the Bulls have been running with Zach as their team's face and best player, and that's not going to work. It's not Zach's fault, though.


I don't think there's anything stopping Zach from continuing to be the face of the franchise in terms of a marketing and or standpoint (unless you meant face in another way), while adding a player that is better suited for running an offense that gets everyone involved better.

Zach for his part is improving in his playmaking ability. There's never been a big year to year leap, but he's gotten incrementally better every season. It'd be great for a big jump in this aspect of his game, but he is improving.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#59 » by Ice Man » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:36 pm

On the bubble/3-point shooting. These are the playoff figures -

2020: 36.8 shots per game (per team), 36.4%
2019: 32.9 shots per game, 34.5%

Regular season -

2020: 34.1, 35.8%
2019: 32.0, 35.5%

So maybe there's a bit to the bubble theory, but it's also true that the league overall is shooting more 3s, and slightly more accurately despite the higher volume.
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Re: Jamal Murray 

Post#60 » by Chi town » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:25 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine has star-level scoring talent and is very much a peer of Mitchell/Murray in that regard.

But he's worse in other areas like defense (clearly worse than Mitchell) or floor-game/Basketball IQ (clearly worse than both).


Which I expect to improve with better teammates and coaching.

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