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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

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Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1661 » by Dez » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:01 am

MrFortune3 wrote:
Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
If it's a big, need has to factor in. We can't go about this like the Magic, Hornets, Sixers or Suns. That takes too long to build out the roster and balance it.
Toppin is not even close to being a guy you draft and figure it out later with regards to balance.


No it doesn't have to factor in, you just go ahead and trade a big.

Draft BPA, if that's Toppin then take him.


That's how you end up like the Magic having taken 5 highly drafted bigs, no way to develop them all and no roster balance. It definitely has to factor in and it should factor in.


You using one example and assuming that AK and Eversley are morons that will do the same.

If you draft Toppin then you can trade Markkanen, it's really not a difficult concept.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1662 » by MrFortune3 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:10 am

Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
Dez wrote:
No it doesn't have to factor in, you just go ahead and trade a big.

Draft BPA, if that's Toppin then take him.


That's how you end up like the Magic having taken 5 highly drafted bigs, no way to develop them all and no roster balance. It definitely has to factor in and it should factor in.


You using one example and assuming that AK and Eversley are morons that will do the same.

If you draft Toppin then you can trade Markkanen, it's really not a difficult concept.


It's not just the Magic. It happened with the Sixers, Suns, Hornets had the and still at times have the same issue.

The FO is not just going to up and trade Lauri or WCJ after drafting someone. They are going to play out at least part of the season to see the fit. Figure out who they want on the team and how they develop.

More to the point, during the closing of games, Toppin has to go to the bench because he's awful on D and you will need to clamp down to get stops.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1663 » by Dez » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:19 am

MrFortune3 wrote:
Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
That's how you end up like the Magic having taken 5 highly drafted bigs, no way to develop them all and no roster balance. It definitely has to factor in and it should factor in.


You using one example and assuming that AK and Eversley are morons that will do the same.

If you draft Toppin then you can trade Markkanen, it's really not a difficult concept.


It's not just the Magic. It happened with the Sixers, Suns, Hornets had the and still at times have the same issue.

The FO is not just going to up and trade Lauri or WCJ after drafting someone. They are going to play out at least part of the season to see the fit. Figure out who they want on the team and how they develop.

More to the point, during the closing of games, Toppin has to go to the bench because he's awful on D and you will need to clamp down to get stops.


Going by that logic then Lauri must also go to the bench during the closing of games because he's the same.

They don't have to just up and trade draft night, a decision on Lauri might be made early in the season given his status as a RFA.

BPA first, fit later.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1664 » by PhilLeotardo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:55 am

Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
Dez wrote:
You using one example and assuming that AK and Eversley are morons that will do the same.

If you draft Toppin then you can trade Markkanen, it's really not a difficult concept.


It's not just the Magic. It happened with the Sixers, Suns, Hornets had the and still at times have the same issue.

The FO is not just going to up and trade Lauri or WCJ after drafting someone. They are going to play out at least part of the season to see the fit. Figure out who they want on the team and how they develop.

More to the point, during the closing of games, Toppin has to go to the bench because he's awful on D and you will need to clamp down to get stops.


Going by that logic then Lauri must also go to the bench during the closing of games because he's the same.

They don't have to just up and trade draft night, a decision on Lauri might be made early in the season given his status as a RFA.

BPA first, fit later.


If you think LM is poor on defense, just wait. Toppin is comically awful. He has barely any sense of defensive awareness whatsoever. He’s been around for a while too & is around the same age as LM. He’s likely always going to be a total liability/tweener on D. LM has decent defensive instincts, it’s just that his lack of foot speed/paltry wingspan prevent him from putting them to good use. He can improve on D with better timing & patient coaching. Not sure the same can be said for Toppin

I’d seriously be concerned if Chicago selected a 22 year old tweener PF with the 4th pick. I really don’t think Toppin is BPA. He looks like he’ll be a poor man’s John Collins

The safest bet in this draft to become a star is IMO Vassell (best advanced stats of the lot, perfect archetype for the modern game, already incredible on defense) & the guy with potentially the highest upside is Pokusevsky. That’s why I’m advocating for them to trade down for two picks, and then select Markus Howard with the 2nd r’der. This draft is gonna be like the Ball/Fultz draft. Pretty much everyone poised to go top 5 is being way way overhyped. There couldn’t be a more clear cut example of a draft where trading down could nab you more value than this one
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1665 » by PlayerUp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:01 am

JohnnyTapwater wrote:
StunnerKO wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Crazy -

a starting line-up of all 7 footers is right around the corner -


He may actually still grow a couple more issues.

Only issue here is he is 7'3 and super skinny. We have yet to see someone this tall and skinny last long in the NBA. Bol Bol dropped to the 2nd Rd because of his long term health issues. He won't make it to 30 in the NBA.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1666 » by Chi town » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:02 am

PhilLeotardo wrote:
Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
It's not just the Magic. It happened with the Sixers, Suns, Hornets had the and still at times have the same issue.

The FO is not just going to up and trade Lauri or WCJ after drafting someone. They are going to play out at least part of the season to see the fit. Figure out who they want on the team and how they develop.

More to the point, during the closing of games, Toppin has to go to the bench because he's awful on D and you will need to clamp down to get stops.


Going by that logic then Lauri must also go to the bench during the closing of games because he's the same.

They don't have to just up and trade draft night, a decision on Lauri might be made early in the season given his status as a RFA.

BPA first, fit later.


If you think LM is poor on defense, just wait. Toppin is comically awful. He has barely any sense of defensive awareness whatsoever. He’s been around for a while too & is around the same age as LM. He’s likely always going to be a total liability/tweener on D. LM has decent defensive instincts, it’s just that his lack of foot speed/paltry wingspan prevent him from putting them to good use. He can improve on D with better timing & patient coaching. Not sure the same can be said for Toppin

I’d seriously be concerned if Chicago selected a 22 year old tweener PF with the 4th pick. I really don’t think Toppin is BPA. He looks like he’ll be a poor man’s John Collins

The safest bet in this draft to become a star is IMO Vassell (best advanced stats of the lot, perfect archetype for the modern game, already incredible on defense) & the guy with potentially the highest upside is Pokusevsky. That’s why I’m advocating for them to trade down for two picks, and then select Markus Howard with the 2nd r’der. This draft is gonna be like the Ball/Fultz draft. Pretty much everyone poised to go top 5 is being way way overhyped. There couldn’t be a more clear cut example of a draft where trading down could nab you more value than this one


I’d be happy with Tatum or Fox.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1667 » by MGB8 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:16 am

PlayerUp wrote:James Wiseman update photo of him with his trainer

Image

I was initially totally against drafting yet another bigman but the bigman specifically Okongwu and Wiseman are clearly the less risky picks as they'll at least should be a serviceable role players at the next level (Haliburton/Vassell as well). If we don't go bigman, we have to get a playmaker. This is also a rare opportunity to get a playmaker (Deni/Hayes/Ball/Haliburton) something we've been lacking for basically forever now.

If however LaMelo Ball, Anthony Edwards, and James Wiseman drop, we should also strongly try to work trades with teams below us. Try to make a play to get a lower pick and asset. If any of these 3 drop, we should take them and work trades with teams below us.



He needs to stop skipping legs day...
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1668 » by PlayerUp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 am

PhilLeotardo wrote:The safest bet in this draft to become a star is IMO Vassell (best advanced stats of the lot, perfect archetype for the modern game, already incredible on defense) & the guy with potentially the highest upside is Pokusevsky.


Here are the prospects with the best advanced stats in this draft who were 19.5 years old or younger when they produced these stats and projected to go in the lottery:

James Wiseman Advanced Stats (3 Games)
149.8 Offensive Rating
80.8 Defensive Rating
52.7 PER
76% TS

Onyeka Okongwu Advanced Stats
122.8 Offenisive Rating
88.5 Defensive Rating
31.1 PER
64.5% TS

Devil Vassell Advanced Stats
126.9 Offensive Rating
93.6 Defensive Rating
23.8 PER
58.5% TS

I'm in agreement with you for the most part. At #4, you hope to draft a player with the highest ceiling. However this draft the high ceiling players have too many red flags in Ball/Deni/Hayes. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be bad players but they have alot to overcome in the NBA.

LaMelo Ball Advanced Stats (All Leagues 2019-20)
108.0 Offensive Rating
113.8 Defensive Rating
47.9% TS
18.5 PER

Deni Avdija Advanced Stats (Euro League - Best League Of The Bunch)
104.6 Offensive Rating
106.6 Defensive Rating
51.5% TS
10.5 PER

Killian Hayes Advanced Stats (All League 2019-20)
107.6 Offensive Rating
109.7 Defensive Rating
59.1% TS
16.5 PER

Overall I think we should be really focusing on these upcoming predraft workouts and see what progress they have made (physical profile, shooting, IQ, work ethic, etc) and then making a final decision based on that.
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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1669 » by StunnerKO » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:30 am

PlayerUp wrote:
JohnnyTapwater wrote:
StunnerKO wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Crazy -

a starting line-up of all 7 footers is right around the corner -


He may actually still grow a couple more issues.

Only issue here is he is 7'3 and super skinny. We have yet to see someone this tall and skinny last long in the NBA. Bol Bol dropped to the 2nd Rd because of his long term health issues. He won't make it to 30 in the NBA.

Well he’s only like 16 so he’s still growing into his body , KP is a similar build he might have coming into the NBA and he has put on a decent amount of size. Image
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1670 » by PlayerUp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:31 am

StunnerKO wrote:KP is a similar build he might have coming into the NBA


He has also torn his ACL and Meniscus. KP probably won't make it to 30 in the NBA.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1671 » by Benedict Miller » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:51 am

I'm one of the few who wants Wiseman.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1672 » by PlayerUp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:03 am

Benedict Miller wrote:I'm one of the few who wants Wiseman.


More than likely he won't drop to #4. He seems like a more for sure bet to be a success than LaMelo or Edwards.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1673 » by Southpaw » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:35 am

Benedict Miller wrote:I'm one of the few who wants Wiseman.

I'm with you. I'd even do a trade up if possible.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1674 » by Little Nathan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:47 am

PlayerUp wrote:He seems like a more for sure bet to be a success than LaMelo or Edwards.


Heavily disagree with that. Reading this a lot, but I don't understand where this argument is coming from. Is Wiseman more likeky to put up good counting stats? Sure. Is he more likely to actually make an impact? I don't see why he would be.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1675 » by SfBull » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:11 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:
Dez wrote:
MrFortune3 wrote:
It's not just the Magic. It happened with the Sixers, Suns, Hornets had the and still at times have the same issue.

The FO is not just going to up and trade Lauri or WCJ after drafting someone. They are going to play out at least part of the season to see the fit. Figure out who they want on the team and how they develop.

More to the point, during the closing of games, Toppin has to go to the bench because he's awful on D and you will need to clamp down to get stops.


Going by that logic then Lauri must also go to the bench during the closing of games because he's the same.

They don't have to just up and trade draft night, a decision on Lauri might be made early in the season given his status as a RFA.

BPA first, fit later.


If you think LM is poor on defense, just wait. Toppin is comically awful. He has barely any sense of defensive awareness whatsoever. He’s been around for a while too & is around the same age as LM. He’s likely always going to be a total liability/tweener on D. LM has decent defensive instincts, it’s just that his lack of foot speed/paltry wingspan prevent him from putting them to good use. He can improve on D with better timing & patient coaching. Not sure the same can be said for Toppin

I’d seriously be concerned if Chicago selected a 22 year old tweener PF with the 4th pick. I really don’t think Toppin is BPA. He looks like he’ll be a poor man’s John Collins

The safest bet in this draft to become a star is IMO Vassell (best advanced stats of the lot, perfect archetype for the modern game, already incredible on defense) & the guy with potentially the highest upside is Pokusevsky. That’s why I’m advocating for them to trade down for two picks, and then select Markus Howard with the 2nd r’der. This draft is gonna be like the Ball/Fultz draft. Pretty much everyone poised to go top 5 is being way way overhyped. There couldn’t be a more clear cut example of a draft where trading down could nab you more value than this one

Or we could trade down and get Vassell.Do you believe that Howard can improve our backcourt?He can be better than Dunn or Sato?
I really like Vassell having watched some games.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1676 » by SfBull » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:00 pm

A mock draft database covering 27 mock drafts
https://walterfootball.com/nbadraftdata.php
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1677 » by Jvaughn » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:31 pm

SfBull wrote:A mock draft database covering 27 mock drafts
https://walterfootball.com/nbadraftdata.php


Omg, some of those picks are comically bad. Someone chose Nico Mannion at 4 for us.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1678 » by PhilLeotardo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:56 pm

SfBull wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:
Dez wrote:
Going by that logic then Lauri must also go to the bench during the closing of games because he's the same.

They don't have to just up and trade draft night, a decision on Lauri might be made early in the season given his status as a RFA.

BPA first, fit later.


If you think LM is poor on defense, just wait. Toppin is comically awful. He has barely any sense of defensive awareness whatsoever. He’s been around for a while too & is around the same age as LM. He’s likely always going to be a total liability/tweener on D. LM has decent defensive instincts, it’s just that his lack of foot speed/paltry wingspan prevent him from putting them to good use. He can improve on D with better timing & patient coaching. Not sure the same can be said for Toppin

I’d seriously be concerned if Chicago selected a 22 year old tweener PF with the 4th pick. I really don’t think Toppin is BPA. He looks like he’ll be a poor man’s John Collins

The safest bet in this draft to become a star is IMO Vassell (best advanced stats of the lot, perfect archetype for the modern game, already incredible on defense) & the guy with potentially the highest upside is Pokusevsky. That’s why I’m advocating for them to trade down for two picks, and then select Markus Howard with the 2nd r’der. This draft is gonna be like the Ball/Fultz draft. Pretty much everyone poised to go top 5 is being way way overhyped. There couldn’t be a more clear cut example of a draft where trading down could nab you more value than this one

Or we could trade down and get Vassell.Do you believe that Howard can improve our backcourt?He can be better than Dunn or Sato?
I really like Vassell having watched some games.


I don’t think Dunn will be on the team for much longer, perhaps not Sato either, and I dunno what Howard will be able to provide from the jump, but I do know that Markus Howard is one of the greatest shooters in the history of college basketball. He has homeless man’s Steph Curry written all over him, and if you can grab that in the 2nd round, you do it imo

Also, I said trade down for two picks, and then selecting Vassell & Poku with those picks, and Howard with the 2nd rder
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1679 » by PhilLeotardo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:01 pm

So, according to Pokusevsky himself, who has a YouTube account & was chatting with fans recently, he’s 7’2 now WTF, and obviously still has a solid 2/2.5 years of physical growth left. I dunno, seems like a 7’4 wing will be a death knell in the NBA, but if it works out, hallelujah
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#1680 » by DuckIII » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:23 pm

Toppin will not be BPA at 4, and he’s not even close to the type of player you “draft and figure it out later.” And I say that as someone way down on Lauri.

The only big at 4 you could even contemplate is Wiseman.
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