GO CRAZY PAT! - Patrick Williams thread p2

[sco]

Oh come on. He’s done that same drive left, body the defender and finish to success multiple times throughout the season. Harris made a nice defensive play and the ball bounced off Williams leg. The move itself showed a quick first step with a nice crossover. Harris just anticipated it so it didn’t work.

What it really shows is that Williams has not learned yet to change up in the middle of a move. When he decides to head fake and take a pull up, he does it even when the head fake leaves him with a path to the basket. Alternatively, like you saw in that okay, once he committed to the physical drive to the hoop, he didn’t pull up or step back when Harris defended it well.

It’s still a problem with reacting, process and feeling the game. But it’s not a skill issue.

Totally agree about his defense, rebounding and sluggishness though. I’ve been saying that since before the trade deadline. It’s a concern.

Its just an example. Out of the times when he has been aggressive, it has resulted in an ugly play a lot of the time. To put some stats to the anecdote, Pat has the 3rd highest turnover rate on the team (out of the regulars), behind Sato and Thad. For a guy who rarely passes or puts the ball on the floor, its concerning. Many are calling for his aggressiveness to increase, including myself, but the end result of that might be getting a face full of his low skill level.

You and I agree there is an issue with the results, but disagree on the cause. It’s mental processing, decision making, feel, poor instincts, whatever you want to call it. Not skills.

I agree. The game is still moving a bit too fast for him, which may be the most positive of the reasons for his poor play. I said this before, I think he has been told (on offense) to just take open shots but to see if someone else has a better one first - which actually is harder than having the green light because it requires extra time and thinking.

He also needs to work on ball security, but some of that is that he thinks for that 1/2 second, which gives defenders a chance to react.

[DuckIII]

Its just an example. Out of the times when he has been aggressive, it has resulted in an ugly play a lot of the time. To put some stats to the anecdote, Pat has the 3rd highest turnover rate on the team (out of the regulars), behind Sato and Thad. For a guy who rarely passes or puts the ball on the floor, its concerning. Many are calling for his aggressiveness to increase, including myself, but the end result of that might be getting a face full of his low skill level.

You and I agree there is an issue with the results, but disagree on the cause. It’s mental processing, decision making, feel, poor instincts, whatever you want to call it. Not skills.

Hopefully you are right. Pat turning into a good player is one of the few things that could turn the franchise around.

Yeah, our path to success has basically three chances, all highly questionable, and probably two of them have to happen.

[drosestruts]

I know the topic of what position Pat Williams is best suited for comes up here every now and then. I myself have suggested he play more minutes at the 4, granted my ideal forwards would be interchangeable at the 3 and 4.

Occasionally when the idea of Williams playing the 4 is brought up, some posters tend to think he's too small. I went through and listed out the starting 4 for each team this season. Players marked with an asterisk are those I believe do hold a significant size advantage against Williams.

Celtics - Jaylen Brown/Jayson Tatum
Nets - Jeff Green
Knicks - Julius Randle*
76ers - Tobias Harris
Raptors - Paskal Siakam
Cavs - Kevin Love (sometimes)/ Dean Wade
Pistons - Jerami Grant
Pacers - Myles Turner*
Bucks - Giannis Antenkoumpouko*
Hawks - John Collins*
Hornets - Gordon Hayward
Heat - Trevor Ariza
Magic - Chuma Okeke
Wizards - Rui Hachimura
Nuggets - Aaron Gordon*
Timberwolves - Jaden McDaniels
Thunder - Darius Bazley
Trail Blazers - Robert Covington
Jazz - Royce O'Neale
Warriors - Draymond Green*
Clippers - Paul George
Lakers - Anthony Davis*
Suns - Jae Crowder
Kings - Marvin Bagley*
Mavs - Kristaps Prozingis
Rockets - Christain Wood*
Grizzlies - Jaren Jackson Jr*
Pelicans - Zion*
Spurs - Keldon Johnson

So by my count, 11/30 power-forwards present a size advantage against Patrick Williams if he were to play the 4. with 7 of those power-forwards being in the Western Conference which means we only play them twice.

[umfan83]

This thread title has turned from an exclamation to a demand.

[MikeDC]

I know the topic of what position Pat Williams is best suited for comes up here every now and then. I myself have suggested he play more minutes at the 4, granted my ideal forwards would be interchangeable at the 3 and 4.

Occasionally when the idea of Williams playing the 4 is brought up, some posters tend to think he's too small. I went through and listed out the starting 4 for each team this season. Players marked with an asterisk are those I believe do hold a significant size advantage against Williams.

Celtics - Jaylen Brown/Jayson Tatum
Nets - Jeff Green
Knicks - Julius Randle*
76ers - Tobias Harris
Raptors - Paskal Siakam
Cavs - Kevin Love (sometimes)/ Dean Wade
Pistons - Jerami Grant
Pacers - Myles Turner*
Bucks - Giannis Antenkoumpouko*
Hawks - John Collins*
Hornets - Gordon Hayward
Heat - Trevor Ariza
Magic - Chuma Okeke
Wizards - Rui Hachimura
Nuggets - Aaron Gordon*
Timberwolves - Jaden McDaniels
Thunder - Darius Bazley
Trail Blazers - Robert Covington
Jazz - Royce O'Neale
Warriors - Draymond Green*
Clippers - Paul George
Lakers - Anthony Davis*
Suns - Jae Crowder
Kings - Marvin Bagley*
Mavs - Kristaps Prozingis
Rockets - Christain Wood*
Grizzlies - Jaren Jackson Jr*
Pelicans - Zion*
Spurs - Keldon Johnson

So by my count, 11/30 power-forwards present a size advantage against Patrick Williams if he were to play the 4. with 7 of those power-forwards being in the Western Conference which means we only play them twice.

What do you mean by "size advantage"? One of the big issues is while Pat has a "good" wingspan, he's still giving up several crucial inches of length to guys like Grant or Siakam

[drosestruts]

I know the topic of what position Pat Williams is best suited for comes up here every now and then. I myself have suggested he play more minutes at the 4, granted my ideal forwards would be interchangeable at the 3 and 4.

Occasionally when the idea of Williams playing the 4 is brought up, some posters tend to think he's too small. I went through and listed out the starting 4 for each team this season. Players marked with an asterisk are those I believe do hold a significant size advantage against Williams.

Celtics - Jaylen Brown/Jayson Tatum
Nets - Jeff Green
Knicks - Julius Randle*
76ers - Tobias Harris
Raptors - Paskal Siakam
Cavs - Kevin Love (sometimes)/ Dean Wade
Pistons - Jerami Grant
Pacers - Myles Turner*
Bucks - Giannis Antenkoumpouko*
Hawks - John Collins*
Hornets - Gordon Hayward
Heat - Trevor Ariza
Magic - Chuma Okeke
Wizards - Rui Hachimura
Nuggets - Aaron Gordon*
Timberwolves - Jaden McDaniels
Thunder - Darius Bazley
Trail Blazers - Robert Covington
Jazz - Royce O'Neale
Warriors - Draymond Green*
Clippers - Paul George
Lakers - Anthony Davis*
Suns - Jae Crowder
Kings - Marvin Bagley*
Mavs - Kristaps Prozingis
Rockets - Christain Wood*
Grizzlies - Jaren Jackson Jr*
Pelicans - Zion*
Spurs - Keldon Johnson

So by my count, 11/30 power-forwards present a size advantage against Patrick Williams if he were to play the 4. with 7 of those power-forwards being in the Western Conference which means we only play them twice.

What do you mean by "size advantage"? One of the big issues is while Pat has a "good" wingspan, he's still giving up several crucial inches of length to guys like Grant or Siakam

The Ringers 2020 Draft guide (https://nbadraft.theringer.com/2020/) lists Patrick Williams as 6'8" with a 6'11" wingspan. Basketball-Reference lists Williams as 6'7".

Basketball-Reference lists Grant as 6'8" and lists Siakam as 6'9". That site doesn't include a wingspan for either.

Not sure if there are official measurements to use or how to best compare listed heights for players, especially when some players have different measurements on different sites.

[MikeDC]

Wingspan matters a lot, and it the best is just to google it. I've compiled a database of it over the years, and the gist of it is Pat's is good but not the sort of freakishly good that the real outlier players have. Grant and Siakam are both like 7'2" - 7'4" range. I remember Kawhi and Luol Deng both having that kind of freakish wingspan as well

[drosestruts]

Wingspan matters a lot, and it the best is just to google it. I've compiled a database of it over the years, and the gist of it is Pat's is good but not the sort of freakishly good that the real outlier players have. Grant and Siakam are both like 7'2" - 7'4" range. I remember Kawhi and Luol Deng both having that kind of freakish wingspan as well

That's fair - I definitely notice when watching Aminu play (when he gets in) that while he looks similar in size to Williams, his arms are for sure longer.

[fleet]

A perceived lack of size at 4 would be neither here nor there with Pat, because the idea with him would be forcing bigger guys to keep up with him rather than him trying to match up physically with them.

[sco]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nba-rookie-rankings-anthony-edwards-finishes-season-at-the-top-174446499.html

[meekrab]

Players marked with an asterisk are those I believe do hold a significant size advantage against Williams.

Hawks - John Collins*

Really? Collins certainly didn't look any bigger than Pat when we played them two weeks ago. He might be fractionally taller but Pat is like the Hulk compared to a lot of the younger guys in the league.

Watch on YouTube

[MrSparkle]

Even though they had a year of college with good programs, in many ways I feel like Williams and Coby are really raw. Some guys are ready to play pro, others ain't. The flashed upside when things go right is good; they have adequate size and skills to make a handsome living in the NBA. Long story short, both are capable of shooting off-the-dribble with a hand in their face. Of course so could Blakeney, but I can't seriously entertain that comparison. Their rookie/sophmore overall floors were below par, but not abysmal (as in, they started and logged big minutes without looking like a Poku tank job).

Edwards and LaMelo do take this year's cake. They look like future all-stars. Patrick and Coby don't. But they have the tools to become stars, if they put in the work. Really long road with either guy, but it's not unfathomable for 20yo kids to turn the corner in 2-3 years.

I speculate it'll be good for development that we got Artunas, cause as a Lithuanian basketball head, obviously a fan of Euro bigs, I think he's going to emphasize foot-work as a point of development. Patrick demonstrates solid mechanics, but it also seems like he's thinking too much and a step slow. He's a worker, so hope we get a transformed player with help from the FO.

[pym]

The Athletic's Zack Harper had an encouraging take on Pat in today's NBA Power Ratings:

Encouraging player from this season: Patrick Williams

What a fantastic pick this was at No. 4 for the Chicago Bulls. Williams didn’t have the monster games or the jaw-dropping stats. But every Bulls game you watched this season, you could see Williams putting it together more and more. His instincts on both ends of the floor are high level. His skill set is developing constantly, and despite other rookies having better seasons, I’m not sure the Bulls would think about changing anything with that fourth pick. This was the right guy for building the organization.

[WindyCityBorn]

A perceived lack of size at 4 would be neither here nor there with Pat, because the idea with him would be forcing bigger guys to keep up with him rather than him trying to match up physically with them.

I’d rather have him bully smaller 3s. He will never be a great 4. If want him to be a Marvin Williams clone making him a PF is best way to go ensure that is his ceiling. Why doesn’t Kawhi start at the 4. That is the comparison you should be making.

[Michael Jackson]

I think pat needs a move where he hands a guy a flower and then drives past him.

[GoBlue72391]

The Athletic's Zack Harper had an encouraging take on Pat in today's NBA Power Ratings:

Encouraging player from this season: Patrick Williams

What a fantastic pick this was at No. 4 for the Chicago Bulls. Williams didn’t have the monster games or the jaw-dropping stats. But every Bulls game you watched this season, you could see Williams putting it together more and more. His instincts on both ends of the floor are high level. His skill set is developing constantly, and despite other rookies having better seasons, I’m not sure the Bulls would think about changing anything with that fourth pick. This was the right guy for building the organization.

That reads like it was written by someone who has only watched a handful of Bulls games this season, which is probably true.

[Mk0]

Patrick's end of season press conference
https://www.pscp.tv/chicagobulls/1ynJOBwmgbzGR

[JohnnyTapwater]

Pat kept saying he can be good as he wants to be.

What is that? He never specified. I believe he needs to have the courage to say, I want to be an all-star. Or I want to be MVP or whatever so he knows specifically what it's going to take to get there.

Awareness is so important in life.

[CobyWhite0]

Pat kept saying he can be good as he wants to be.

What is that? He never specified. I believe he needs to have the courage to say, I want to be an all-star. Or I want to be MVP or whatever so he knows specifically what it's going to take to get there.

Awareness is so important in life.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/features/patrick-williams-his-future-i-want-be-known-one-greats-league

"For me, it's more mental than anything," he admitted. "I have to learn how to control my mentality and to really dial in 100 percent mentally. I think that will make me the player that I want to be and that I need to be. I want to be known as one of the greats in this league. I think I have all the tools I need to be able to do that. Skill, athleticism, pretty much everything that I need. And then also when you have a coaching staff, a front office and good teammates that have your back, I mean I have everything on my side. It's just up to me to put the work in each and every day, focus in on the goal at hand. Just be as good as I want to be. The ball is in my court. I definitely want to be great in this league."
__________________

I think "one of the greats in this league" certainly encompasses All-Star, and a truly "great" player should be an MVP candidate.

[Chi town]

You and I agree there is an issue with the results, but disagree on the cause. It’s mental processing, decision making, feel, poor instincts, whatever you want to call it. Not skills.

Hopefully you are right. Pat turning into a good player is one of the few things that could turn the franchise around.

Yeah, our path to success has basically three chances, all highly questionable, and probably two of them have to happen.

Duck, I’ve seen you post this multiple times. My take is AK is thinking get two stars and become a playoff team and then attract whatever else you need. Of course Pat can take a jump, Lavine become a top 10 player, or we win the lottery and get a top 4 pick that becomes great.

I think get two stars and figure it out is the best and most realistic plan. Stealth tank with no Vuc trade would have probably caused Lavine to leave. Too young as a team.

Basically everything that could go wrong did. Lavine ankle and Covid.