Image ImageImage Image

Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success

Moderators: HomoSapien, coldfish, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , Ice Man, DASMACKDOWN, Michael Jackson, fleet, Payt10, RedBulls23, dougthonus, GimmeDat, kulaz3000

tindogg
Sophomore
Posts: 231
And1: 0
Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#21 » by tindogg » Thu Oct 7, 2021 6:27 am

AKfanatic wrote:
tindogg wrote:They will also have trouble when the game slows to a grind, if, and that's a big iffff, they make the playoffs, on paper they have the talent, but what will the grind it out half court offense look when they have to take the ball out of their own bucket each time to start the offense!??


We’re weeks away from the start of the season, so predicting how this team would look in the playoffs is a bit premature……

That said, if the Bulls do make the playoffs it’s a good assumption that they’ve built a decent chemistry to have accomplished that, and given the make-up of the starters, finding half-court offense shouldn’t be a massive struggle.

The Bulls have multiple guys that can find their own shot, guys that can score at all three levels on the court (post, mid, arc), and multiple guys that can stretch the floor. With a full season of chemistry, finding ways to score in the half-court is low on the “things to be worried about” list for this team.



I hear u, it's early days, but seems like they really went all in on this team structure, will it be enough to get them back in the playoffs since 2015!???
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 17,050
And1: 6,479
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#22 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 7, 2021 9:27 am

kodo wrote:
tindogg wrote:They will also have trouble when the game slows to a grind, if, and that's a big iffff, they make the playoffs, on paper they have the talent, but what will the grind it out half court offense look when they have to take the ball out of their own bucket each time to start the offense!??


Read on Twitter
?s=20
Yeah. IDK where this idea that the Bulls won't be able to score in the half court is coming from.

2 of the best ISO scorers. 4 highly skilled PnR guys.

It belongs right there in the trash with the "no-defense" label. As many on here have pointed out, the Bulls were in the top half of the league in defensive metrics last season and then added Ball, Caruso and Green.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 17,050
And1: 6,479
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#23 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 7, 2021 9:30 am

DuckIII wrote:The most illogically overrated high volume NBA argument is the reliance on team success to determine individual quality.

I could make a borderline dynasty out of players on mediocre-to-bad teams.
Here here, amen, plus 1, etc.

Well put.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 17,050
And1: 6,479
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#24 » by Stratmaster » Thu Oct 7, 2021 9:32 am

tindogg wrote:
AKfanatic wrote:
tindogg wrote:They will also have trouble when the game slows to a grind, if, and that's a big iffff, they make the playoffs, on paper they have the talent, but what will the grind it out half court offense look when they have to take the ball out of their own bucket each time to start the offense!??


We’re weeks away from the start of the season, so predicting how this team would look in the playoffs is a bit premature……

That said, if the Bulls do make the playoffs it’s a good assumption that they’ve built a decent chemistry to have accomplished that, and given the make-up of the starters, finding half-court offense shouldn’t be a massive struggle.

The Bulls have multiple guys that can find their own shot, guys that can score at all three levels on the court (post, mid, arc), and multiple guys that can stretch the floor. With a full season of chemistry, finding ways to score in the half-court is low on the “things to be worried about” list for this team.



I hear u, it's early days, but seems like they really went all in on this team structure, will it be enough to get them back in the playoffs since 2015!???
If the Bulls don't make the playoffs Billy Donovan will never find another coaching job in the NBA.

There is absolutely no non-injury reason this team should miss the playoffs. None.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
ChettheJet
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,813
And1: 1,002
Joined: Jul 02, 2014
       

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#25 » by ChettheJet » Thu Oct 7, 2021 1:54 pm

Part of why some players were available for the Bulls is that their teams weren't playoff contenders

What doesn't always show up in numbers is, were the players the Bulls brought in responsible for the lack of their teams' playoff appearances? Were they the ones holding the team back by their play or were they surrounded by losing players. With the near complete roster upheaval of the Bulls I wouldn't blame Zach and Coby for not making the playoffs but the 15 or so guys from the past two years that got shipped out.
ATRAIN53
Head Coach
Posts: 7,043
And1: 2,288
Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Location: Chicago

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#26 » by ATRAIN53 » Thu Oct 7, 2021 2:16 pm

Orlando never progressed because Vooch has fallen in love with the 3.

He's started jacking them up, averaged more than 20 PPG finally - made the All Star team and secured a bag.
But he's a 6'11 Center. He needs to live in that post and get those easy put backs, the and ones with rim rattling dunks that fire up the team AND get the other big man in Foul Trouble.

DeRozan on the other hand can't hit the outside shot, esp when it matters.
He could not get past LeBron. Lots of people don't get past LeBron.

Now he's on a team he's not expected to be the top scorer.
Maybe he blossoms, but teams aren't gonna guard him from distance in the playoffs until he proves he can hit that shot.
Otherwise he needs to just take it to the hole relentlessly, get like 15 FTA in a game.
DxC17
Freshman
Posts: 94
And1: 126
Joined: Apr 22, 2015
     

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#27 » by DxC17 » Thu Oct 7, 2021 4:21 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Orlando never progressed because Vooch has fallen in love with the 3.

He's started jacking them up, averaged more than 20 PPG finally - made the All Star team and secured a bag.
But he's a 6'11 Center. He needs to live in that post and get those easy put backs, the and ones with rim rattling dunks that fire up the team AND get the other big man in Foul Trouble.

DeRozan on the other hand can't hit the outside shot, esp when it matters.
He could not get past LeBron. Lots of people don't get past LeBron.

Now he's on a team he's not expected to be the top scorer.
Maybe he blossoms, but teams aren't gonna guard him from distance in the playoffs until he proves he can hit that shot.
Otherwise he needs to just take it to the hole relentlessly, get like 15 FTA in a game.


Orlando had much bigger problems than Vucevic, I wouldn't say their first All-Star since Dwight was the thing holding the franchise back. No modern C lives in the post anymore, Vuc extended his range because that's what the position requires to play at an elite level now. In fact, his range makes PnR w/ Zach & Demar even deadlier because defenders can't hedge to play help on the driving ballhandler. He'll still get fed in the post when the game calls for it, mainly slower half-court sets. Vuc is a legitimate 3 level scorer, and can play back to the basket whenever he needs to.

Demar theoretically shouldn't ever be relied on to shoot 3s, that's not why he was brought in & any offense that can't figure out how to succeed with an efficient midrange shooter simply has no business winning. If teams aren't gonna guard him at a distance, he can simply just create his own shot inside the arc. When the game slows down in the playoffs, it's actually the elite midrange & ISO players that become the most valuable. Just look at Booker & Middleton this year. Demar's struggled in the playoffs because his midrange splits are in some cases 10 percentage points lower than his regular season, not because he's chucking 3s.

I'm not saying I'm not concerned about Demar in the playoffs, but rather I'm concerned for other reasons than his inability to shoot 3s. He simply just doesn't execute his own game in the midrange. Demar should be an ideal playoff scorer.
User avatar
Grodoboldo
Veteran
Posts: 2,919
And1: 2,156
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Location: Sao Paulo
 

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#28 » by Grodoboldo » Fri Oct 8, 2021 12:36 am

SHO'NUFF wrote:
bigfacedolla wrote:After the 55th missed defensive assignment, zo will give a dispirited look at zach, who will look at demar, who will look at vooch, who will look at coby white...and then they'll all shrug their shoulders and donovan will sigh and say "ok DJJ, warm up"



Nick Friedell you’re not fooling anyone.


Maybe it's Hollinger.
This signature has been S&Td by Artūras Karnišovas and Marc Eversley in exchange for your mom.
User avatar
Mr. Tibbs
Head Coach
Posts: 6,301
And1: 350
Joined: Jun 25, 2006

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#29 » by Mr. Tibbs » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:35 pm

It's possible that this reason is why these players were available to be had, and for that I am very thankful.

Others see players without team success. I see a group of highly talented players who have something to prove and that something is high level team success. I also think they genuinely understand they will need each other to do it, and will sacrifice as needed.
RIP Johnny Red Kerr, Norm Van Lier, Pdenninggolden, Bullsmaniac
micromonkey
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 556
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
     

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#30 » by micromonkey » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:58 pm

I do not buy into the argument fully, team construction is huge in winning.

There are maybe 5 or so guys who can drag almost any team to the playoffs (or at least a winning record).
That doesn't make the other guys bums.

Almost 90% of the time the "team loser" guys are good on offense and bad on defense.
Team construction, coaching and scheme are all important.
Just think Iverson--if you build a scrappy defensive team--the guy could make it go
Prime Melo, the same thing. If you needed him to do all of it--hes not a 2 way player.

Even among lower tier players--look at all the scrub mighty mouse PGs Thibs was able to turn into "winners" via team construction, coaching and scheme. DJ Augustin, Nate--just have them focus on what they CAN do.

So yeah mostly the top "losing" stars have limited success because of team construction and/or poor individual defense. In Lonzo's case he was just a young pup adjusting to the game and a bad fit with Lebron--and obviously you go with Lebron.
weneeda2guard
General Manager
Posts: 8,167
And1: 3,564
Joined: Feb 07, 2011

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#31 » by weneeda2guard » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:23 pm

Not sure if this was mentioned

But people could have said the same thing about the big 3 in Boston (garnet, Allen, pierce,) before they got together and the team with the lakers (kobe after shaq, lamar Odom, Pau gasol, Ron artest) before they got together.
"they taking rose kindness for a weakness"
User avatar
Little Nathan
General Manager
Posts: 7,881
And1: 5,205
Joined: Mar 11, 2013
Location: Germany
 

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#32 » by Little Nathan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:31 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Orlando never progressed because Vooch has fallen in love with the 3.

He's started jacking them up, averaged more than 20 PPG finally - made the All Star team and secured a bag.
But he's a 6'11 Center. He needs to live in that post and get those easy put backs, the and ones with rim rattling dunks that fire up the team AND get the other big man in Foul Trouble.


I mean, that's just not true. There are very few really efficient post scorers left, and Vucevic has never been one of them. He isn't getting anyone in foul trouble. Him making 40% of his 3s on pretty high volume last season was a great development for him. Will he shoot 40% from deep again? Probably not. But his volume absolutely needs to stay high for the offense to click.
"Heart is a skill that players who shoot 3s might not have." - Chris Webber, actually getting paid for this
iqureshi
Sophomore
Posts: 243
And1: 47
Joined: Feb 21, 2005
Contact:

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#33 » by iqureshi » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:16 pm

Lavine, was not a good player a few years ago. He has definitely improved his game every off season, paired with elite athleticism. His biggest weakness at this point is he's not player you just give the ball to and let him go wild, like alot of the "top players". He can do it , but not for a whole game, because he doesn't make great decisions, maybe cause the team around him sucked and there was nobody to dump off to when they doubled him. I think he could be one of the greatest off ball players ever. He can do everything with a little space, and this roll for him should really help him flourish.

Vooch is an athletically challenged uber skilled big man. I kept hearing comparisons to a taller more talented carlos boozer. Probably a good comparisson, but with this roll they are giving him, it might work really well. He's not an elite defender but better then wendell. As a 3rd or 4th option, he'll thrive.

Ball still isn't great in the half court or finishing. His shot is so good now, and vision great, but if his best move while driving would be finding a cutter. Needs work there to become elite. Probably best pure pg bulls have ever had though.

DeRozan is the big wild card. He's always been asked to score, and like parker said when he was here, i don't get paid to play Defense. In preseason his 3point shot seemed serviceable, and his defense isn't atrocious. His defense is one of the week links in our team.

PW: think the season always relied on how good he can be. If he's kawai we are a contender (unlikely), but if he's hit a significant improvement from last year, he'll really thrive with ball/demar playing a secondary off ball roll.
MrSparkle
RealGM
Posts: 18,140
And1: 7,226
Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Location: chicago

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#34 » by MrSparkle » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:53 pm

iqureshi wrote:Lavine, was not a good player a few years ago. He has definitely improved his game every off season, paired with elite athleticism. His biggest weakness at this point is he's not player you just give the ball to and let him go wild, like alot of the "top players". He can do it , but not for a whole game, because he doesn't make great decisions, maybe cause the team around him sucked and there was nobody to dump off to when they doubled him. I think he could be one of the greatest off ball players ever. He can do everything with a little space, and this roll for him should really help him flourish.

Vooch is an athletically challenged uber skilled big man. I kept hearing comparisons to a taller more talented carlos boozer. Probably a good comparisson, but with this roll they are giving him, it might work really well. He's not an elite defender but better then wendell. As a 3rd or 4th option, he'll thrive.

Ball still isn't great in the half court or finishing. His shot is so good now, and vision great, but if his best move while driving would be finding a cutter. Needs work there to become elite. Probably best pure pg bulls have ever had though.

DeRozan is the big wild card. He's always been asked to score, and like parker said when he was here, i don't get paid to play Defense. In preseason his 3point shot seemed serviceable, and his defense isn't atrocious. His defense is one of the week links in our team.

PW: think the season always relied on how good he can be. If he's kawai we are a contender (unlikely), but if he's hit a significant improvement from last year, he'll really thrive with ball/demar playing a secondary off ball roll.


Good take.

We've seen the "fringe star super team" thing fall apart (Deron/Joe/Lopez Nets, Westbrook/George/Melo Thunder), so it wouldn't entirely shock me if they underwhelm. But I do think they bought low on every single player (besides the cost of Zach/Jimmy), including our FAs. More importantly, the ages and salary cap are very well structured. The only dent will be Zach's impending max, but there's really no alternative now since we're operating over the cap anyway. With the protected picks and cap/trade flexibility, I'm not worried about a meltdown or disappointing run.

I do hope that DeRozan and Pat play well though. Their best versions would absolutely make this a contender.

I also think Billy is the ideal coach for this squad. I liked the way OKC played in the CP3 year, and the way Billy talked about prospects on that team. Seemed like he handled their development perfectly (Shai, Dort, Bazley, Diallo). Also put Gallinari and Schroder in perfect roles, career-high seasons.. not to mention CP3's return to stardom. Great players have endorsed him, so it was funny hearing some criticism last season (drop defense anybody? While working with Lauri/Wendell/Valentine/Coby/Gafford/Kornet as options..) I see a lot of comparisons in types of personalities and players that Donovan works well with (between that CP3 OKC squad and this Bulls team).

I'm glad we got Alize, Javonte, Ayo. At least 1 of these guys are going to have a big jump under Donovan. Not to mention Lonzo and Caruso.
RSP83
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,068
And1: 2,043
Joined: Sep 14, 2010
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
       

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#35 » by RSP83 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:41 am

bigfacedolla wrote:
cool007 wrote:
bigfacedolla wrote:They'll roll thru low-powered teams but struggled vs the rest. Good group of all-non-defense team outside of zo


Lol, did you just sign up so you can post that nonsense? :crazy:

Anyway, I get why the media and even other teams fans are kind of skeptical and I have no problem with that.

Bulls just have to prove it and I am damn sure that they will. I rather them having lower expectations and exceed them and surprise a ton than have higher expectations and not meet them or disappoint.

I bet that 2010/11 Rose led team at preseason wasn't high on anyone's radar either but that team had the best record in the NBA that year. I really want that kind of feeling back this season.


Ha. I'm an old-school bulls fan and I value defensive effort. I respect what each player brings but I feel roster construction could've been better structured, and dollars better spent. Guys don't turn into defensive-minded beasts overnight. Zach's gotta score. Demar's game is better suited to the 80s/90s. Vooch is slow-footed. Zo is injury prone. Just because these facts ain't great don't make 'em false. D-rose was a superstar (and youngest ever MVP). Let's not confuse him with zach just yet. I want to see bulls succeed but this roster just is not built for when the games really count vs the elites.
was last year's Suns built to play against the Elites? That's the same roster they had before CP3 joined. What is an elite roster construction look like? I don't think there is. I think having more talented players on the team is most important today, and we have 3 guys in Vuc, Zach, and DD that can anchor our team on offense. And that's what team's really need to be able to do in today's game, to score. Defensively, we'll just need to wait and see how this new defensive identity would fare in an 82 game season vs. different teams. I think this team is still 2-3 moves away from being a legit championship contending team.
2018C3
Pro Prospect
Posts: 806
And1: 511
Joined: Jul 14, 2018
   

Re: Bulls Top Stars Have Had Limited Team Success 

Post#36 » by 2018C3 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:47 am

What the front office did here first is drastically increase the overall quality of assets for the team. What we see now is not the final game plan. I'm sure they will make more moves.

Hopefully someone breaks out. and gives the team another boost.

I believe how the team looks now, is just a start towards the right direction. I believe they do have potential to be really good. It will be one of the more exciting seasons this fan base has had in years.


The only guy that was sent out in these moves, that I wished they would have kept is Gafford. The day Arturas came to the Bulls, I said I hope he does not per-maturely toss Gafford into a trade.

But overall I'm happy, especially when comparing the roster inherited, to what it is now.

Return to Chicago Bulls