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Coby White discussion thread

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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#401 » by GoBlue72391 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:46 pm

Rowland Garrett wrote:I quoted Coldfish once. So I'll do it again, but this is from the Denver Post Game Thread.

Rowland Garrett wrote:
coldfish wrote:Painful game.
- Nuggets had a lot of people hitting difficult or shots they normally don't make. Really kept them in it.
- Caruso shot terrible and passed up several open looks. Great defense but not his best night.
- Coby was just freaking awful. His box score doesn't do it justice. Denver had their end of bench guys in and Chicago couldn't get separation because Coby wouldn't allow it. His defense continues to be atrocious but his decision making on offense sucks balls too.

Zach and Demar though. This is why stars are stars. The Bulls are going to be a tough out in the playoffs because these guys can score so well in a grinder of a game.

Fun fact: 3 J. Greens played in this game.

Good points. I just want to say this concerning Coby.

What you said was true. But what I liked was he was not being a timid kitten for the first time, and that is good. I felt they kept him in to help him get up to speed, The rust is still there. I think his time was productive with the long term in mind. He will settle down and I think we will see the Coby from the final games last season where he is fearless yet meditating his mantra of "Do not turn it over."

He was playing hard, but hurting them. But that will change.

I think the start of the game was similar with Tony Bradley. They were emphasizing him too much but it was to boost his confidence. Even though it was detrimental to the team I hope it pays off.

My point then, and now is: AK and company are on a roll and the Gar/Pax attitude needs to go. They know what they are doing...PERIOD!

First of all, the Patrick Williams hate. The dude was hurt prior to preseason, He came out timid. (Shocking for a 19 year old.) It's going to take time for him, but the game he got injured was showing baby steps. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

When he gets back, if he plays this year, expect lots of struggles. But he will be a key player next year and going forward.

Then the Vucevic hate. His shooting was off. He even said he always starts off slow with his shooting. But the fact after 8 or 10 shots he didn't get red hot made many Bulls fans circle the wagons calling for his head on a pike. They stuck with him and he was rounding into form right when he got sick. That's not even counting all the little things he did which are evident now. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

Just don't expect Vuc to be killing it the minute he steps on the floor. Hopefully Monday.

As I said about Coby above, well, key player in a hard fought WIN. My take: Billy Donovan was doing it right.

Trust Billy Donovan and Arturas Karnisovas. Enjoy. This supposed to be fun, and it really is.

Discussing underperforming players is not a "GarPax attitude", it's simply basic discussion/analysis. That really goes beyond sports and applies to basically every topic.

Coby has a valid excuse for his poor play, but he still played poorly until the Knicks game so it's a natural point of discussion. PWill also had a valid excuse for playing poorly, but the biggest gripe with him was less with his overall level of play and more with his timid, passive, lackadaisical nature that was hurting the team. That is a serious problem, and it would be crazy to not discuss it. Vuch's horrid shooting was/is also a problem, but in fairness to Vuch the discussion about his shooting struggles have almost always included the qualifier that he's still contributing in other ways.

Those are fair and valid points of discussion. What would be unfair is making those same discussions, but ignoring or dismissing Coby and PWill's injuries which obviously contributed to their poor play, and ignoring or dismissing Vuch's positive contributions in other areas. And to be completely fair, that does happen, but on an extremely limited basis. The vast majority of discussion is handled in a fair, even-handed manner.

I don't get the overly pessimistic, everything sucks, the-sky-is-falling, doom-and-gloomers who complain even when the team is playing well. But I really don't get the overly positive fans who like to pretend that everything is perfect and view any kind of analysis or discussion of the team's weak points as hating or being overly critical and pessimistic. Those posters were even like that when we were a bad team! It boggles the mind to see posters assuring everyone that everything is fine and all of our young players will be stars when we're in the midst of missing the playoffs for four straight years (referring to last season).
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#402 » by Rowland Garrett » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:13 pm

Ice Man wrote:
sco wrote:Also, his defense remains bad.


It is, but it's no longer so damaging, because he is generally surrounded by at least two of Ball, Caruso, Ayo, Green, and Jones. When you have 2 or 3 wolves out there, you can partially hide the sheep.

We now thoroughly know who Coby is. No more PG fantasies, or hopes that he will become a legit two-way player. He is a scorer, plain and simple. But potentially a very good one. He's more than a shooter, he can drive and make plays near the basket. I like him quite a bit as long as he is used appropriately.

This^

I do believe he has "better" defensive potential. But it's going to take time and work.

That said, if he can start scorching and maybe bang out a couple 30 games and some team wants to offer a quality big, count me in.

But I like him too.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#403 » by sco » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:48 pm

Rowland Garrett wrote:
Ice Man wrote:
sco wrote:Also, his defense remains bad.


It is, but it's no longer so damaging, because he is generally surrounded by at least two of Ball, Caruso, Ayo, Green, and Jones. When you have 2 or 3 wolves out there, you can partially hide the sheep.

We now thoroughly know who Coby is. No more PG fantasies, or hopes that he will become a legit two-way player. He is a scorer, plain and simple. But potentially a very good one. He's more than a shooter, he can drive and make plays near the basket. I like him quite a bit as long as he is used appropriately.

This^

I do believe he has "better" defensive potential. But it's going to take time and work.

That said, if he can start scorching and maybe bang out a couple 30 games and some team wants to offer a quality big, count me in.

But I like him too.

I have to disagree that he can drive and make plays near the basket. He may be the most blocked player in the NBA. He has no floater to speak of, and he is very poor at making contested layups. Now those are learnable skills, but that's something for the offseason.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#404 » by Jcool0 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:16 pm

sco wrote:I have to disagree that he can drive and make plays near the basket. He may be the most blocked player in the NBA. He has no floater to speak of, and he is very poor at making contested layups. Now those are learnable skills, but that's something for the offseason.



Nope.

Shots blocked:

1. Zion Williamson 131x
2, Colin Sexton 97x
3. RJ Barrett 86X

15. Zach Lavine 67x

28. Coby White 59x
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#405 » by sco » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:19 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
sco wrote:

I have to disagree that he can drive and make plays near the basket. He may be the most blocked player in the NBA. He has no floater to speak of, and he is very poor at making contested layups. Now those are learnable skills, but that's something for the offseason.



Nope.

Shots blocked:

1. Zion Williamson 131x
2, Colin Sexton 97x
3. RJ Barrett 86X

15. Zach Lavine 67x

28. Coby White 59x[/quote]
what about on a % of shots basis?
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#406 » by kodo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:04 pm

Last season I'm seeing he got 20% of his inside shots blocked, and Sexton 21%. These kids really need better floaters.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#407 » by sco » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:02 pm

I am fine giving Coby 10 games to earn rotation minutes, recognizing that he may cost us some wins in the process. We really need some scoring help off the bench. That said, if he's still hesistant and not consistently making 3's, it's time to take him out of the rotation and start looking for help elsewhere.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#408 » by DuckIII » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:16 pm

The Bulls handling of White’s return has been comically bad. I don’t want to say it’s “costing games” in the sense that you can draw a straight line between Coby and the L. But he’s clearly making the team worse and less competitive and in both Portland and Houston he took minutes away from players who outplayed him while all he provided in return was a dirt sandwich.

Perhaps the better way to say it is simply: Coby White makes us worse. For now. And “now” counts.

Here’s another way to put it. AKME built a second tier contender that is still being managed like a lottery team.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#409 » by dougthonus » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:40 pm

DuckIII wrote:The Bulls handling of White’s return has been comically bad. I don’t want to say it’s “costing games” in the sense that you can draw a straight line between Coby and the L. But he’s clearly making the team worse and less competitive and in both Portland and Houston he took minutes away from players who outplayed him while all he provided in return was a dirt sandwich.

Perhaps the better way to say it is simply: Coby White makes us worse. For now. And “now” counts.

Here’s another way to put it. AKME built a second tier contender that is still being managed like a lottery team.


I don't know.

If the Bulls are legitimately a 2nd tier contender, then they are going to be fine, even if they lose a few games.

They need Coby to find his groove and start playing well regardless if it is to get another scoring option for the playoffs or to have him improve his value enough to make him a viable trade piece at the deadline. In either sense, they need him to be on the court and start producing.

I think they're playing it like we are a 2d tier contending team, and you are treating the team like it's a fraud. Scared of every loss because we might get exposed or what might happen. A real 2nd tier contending team is going to think for the long term and that would be to keep Coby on the court even through some struggles because it helps them in April even if it causes some losses now.

I feel like this team can be really good, but I definitely get caught up in imposter syndrome sometimes too and get nervous when they drop a game, but there is a lot of upside here that needs to be unlocked still, and that will happen when Coby/Vuc both start playing to their capabilities.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#410 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:52 pm

The word "contender" does not belong in any description of this team.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#411 » by MrSparkle » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:38 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:The Bulls handling of White’s return has been comically bad. I don’t want to say it’s “costing games” in the sense that you can draw a straight line between Coby and the L. But he’s clearly making the team worse and less competitive and in both Portland and Houston he took minutes away from players who outplayed him while all he provided in return was a dirt sandwich.

Perhaps the better way to say it is simply: Coby White makes us worse. For now. And “now” counts.

Here’s another way to put it. AKME built a second tier contender that is still being managed like a lottery team.


I don't know.

If the Bulls are legitimately a 2nd tier contender, then they are going to be fine, even if they lose a few games.

They need Coby to find his groove and start playing well regardless if it is to get another scoring option for the playoffs or to have him improve his value enough to make him a viable trade piece at the deadline. In either sense, they need him to be on the court and start producing.

I think they're playing it like we are a 2d tier contending team, and you are treating the team like it's a fraud. Scared of every loss because we might get exposed or what might happen. A real 2nd tier contending team is going to think for the long term and that would be to keep Coby on the court even through some struggles because it helps them in April even if it causes some losses now.

I feel like this team can be really good, but I definitely get caught up in imposter syndrome sometimes too and get nervous when they drop a game, but there is a lot of upside here that needs to be unlocked still, and that will happen when Coby/Vuc both start playing to their capabilities.


I agree. The way Billy's talked from opening day press conference up to last night, I never got the sense that he (and by extension the FO) saw this as a team that was gonna waltz to the finals. For a start, it'd be nice to see Zach perform in the playoffs for the first time ever, sooner than expecting a finals run. It's actually a preposterous expectation. Most guys need at least 2 or 3 rough playoff bounces before they get the hang of it. It's actually a long process. The Splash Bros were bounced twice.

The trouble is Demar and Vuc are higher in age. The counter is their deals aren't maxes, and they expire at times where a lot of prime stars may come onto the market. Don't think contender discounts are out of question if the mutual respect is still there. I see it as a 2-stage plan, that’s just begun.

Still- the Pat injury was a huge blow to plans.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#412 » by MrSparkle » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:54 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:The word "contender" does not belong in any description of this team.


Bit extreme. Hawks and Bucks started the season horribly. Teams get hot and cold; injuries and lineup changes can drastically change chemistry. A 5pt. Nov. road loss isn’t indicative of the big picture. Miami lost to Minnesota; are they a joke?

The team has flaws, but all teams do. Even the Warriors; they sit very well, but things can go sideways fast. It’s really a house built on a 100% Curry, whereas that 14-19 team could make the finals with him missing almost the entire first 3 rounds.

Really, I’d say our shot is as good as anybody’s. Just depends on who’s most healthy at the last stage of the marathon.

The biggest defensive flag to me has been our inability to hang with 3P gunners with big C presence. Like a 1-2 punch through the Swiss cheese. The thing that augments that problem is we can’t match a 3P blitz on offense, since Zach is the only shooter you can consistently rely on.

The b2b Sixers losses were concerning, as were the Warriors. And of course the Rockets. But all 4 games, teams were exceptionally hot from the arc. The East squads that obviously come to mind are the two loaded squads we haven’t played yet: Miami and Atlanta.

If you play Vuc, then rebounds are secured but low-post and 3P buckets are given up. If you play DJJ/mini-C, then we tend to really get killed on the glass unless the team has no discipline. Bradley just seems to be a serviceable but below-average stop-gap in most match-ups.

I think MIA/ATL will be good measures of whether it’s our scheme, or just coincidental hot nights. If we get handily whipped, it’ll be a confirmation that we really are at best a 2-round team until somebody else really steps up (Vuc, Coby, Javonte, Ayo). You also don’t want irrational expectations, but obviously Vuc and Coby should be capable of shooting better.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#413 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:20 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The word "contender" does not belong in any description of this team.


Bit extreme. Hawks and Bucks started the season horribly. Teams get hot and cold; injuries and lineup changes can drastically change chemistry. A 5pt. Nov. road loss isn’t indicative of the big picture. Miami lost to Minnesota; are they a joke?

The team has flaws, but all teams do. Even the Warriors; they sit very well, but things can go sideways fast. It’s really a house built on a 100% Curry, whereas that 14-19 team could make the finals with him missing almost the entire first 3 rounds.

Really, I’d say our shot is as good as anybody’s. Just depends on who’s most healthy at the last stage of the marathon.

The biggest defensive flag to me has been our inability to hang with 3P gunners with big C presence. Like a 1-2 punch through the Swiss cheese. The thing that augments that problem is we can’t match a 3P blitz on offense, since Zach is the only shooter you can consistently rely on.

The b2b Sixers losses were concerning, as were the Warriors. And of course the Rockets. But all 4 games, teams were exceptionally hot from the arc. The East squads that obviously come to mind are the two loaded squads we haven’t played yet: Miami and Atlanta.

If you play Vuc, then rebounds are secured but low-post and 3P buckets are given up. If you play DJJ/mini-C, then we tend to really get killed on the glass unless the team has no discipline. Bradley just seems to be a serviceable but below-average stop-gap in most match-ups.

I think MIA/ATL will be good measures of whether it’s our scheme, or just coincidental hot nights. If we get handily whipped, it’ll be a confirmation that we really are at best a 2-round team until somebody else really steps up (Vuc, Coby, Javonte, Ayo). You also don’t want irrational expectations, but obviously Vuc and Coby should be capable of shooting better.

Lol the Bucks have Giannis and won the title last year.

They could have started 10-20, and they'd still be more of a "contender" than us.

It's a superstar league and we don't have one. Teams built around Derozan and Vuc aren't contenders. You don't get to use that word.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#414 » by TheJordanRule » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:48 pm

Tbh I don't understand the Coby love. He has always been a dude who's close to worthless if his shot isn't falling, and his shot doesn't fall often enough to be given these entitlement minutes. We need consistency, efficient scoring and defense from the bench unit. Coby doesn't bring any of that. What Coby offers is upside, at the cost of a 1st round exit. He doesn't fit. Send him to a rebuilding team if you want to see his weak sauce game on display. At this point, I'd ride with Ayo and Caruso over Coby a hundred times. We are a win now roster. Even if we weren't, Coby is no savior.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#415 » by NecessaryEvil » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 am

You guys might want to give the guy atleast 15 games

Personally, I’ve never been a fan but I’m rooting for the guy to succeed.

My issue is the lack of defensive skill. I doubt think he fits for that reason but with that being said, I’m no expert. Lou Williams made it his entire career only playing on one side so I guess it depends on the teams needs. We need a bench scorer.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#416 » by Wingy » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:28 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:You guys might want to give the guy atleast 15 games

Personally, I’ve never been a fan but I’m rooting for the guy to succeed.

My issue is the lack of defensive skill. I doubt think he fits for that reason but with that being said, I’m no expert. Lou Williams made it his entire career only playing on one side so I guess it depends on the teams needs. We need a bench scorer.


Agreed. He’s not yet 22, and hasn’t had the benefit of a normal offseason in two of his three (inc the last 2) chances. I don’t call this out to preach all kinds of upside, but more to the fact that it’s not crazy to think he can get back to being a plus contributor, and/or a nice trade piece.

I don’t know as he’ll ever be good at it, but I’ve seen glimpses of him fighting over picks I don’t recall seeing before. Of course, I’ve seen plenty of old Coby going under at the wrong times too. The prior makes me believe being around Caruso, Lonzo, and even Ayo is having a positive effect.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#417 » by ch434355 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am

TheSuzerain wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:The word "contender" does not belong in any description of this team.


Bit extreme. Hawks and Bucks started the season horribly. Teams get hot and cold; injuries and lineup changes can drastically change chemistry. A 5pt. Nov. road loss isn’t indicative of the big picture. Miami lost to Minnesota; are they a joke?

The team has flaws, but all teams do. Even the Warriors; they sit very well, but things can go sideways fast. It’s really a house built on a 100% Curry, whereas that 14-19 team could make the finals with him missing almost the entire first 3 rounds.

Really, I’d say our shot is as good as anybody’s. Just depends on who’s most healthy at the last stage of the marathon.

The biggest defensive flag to me has been our inability to hang with 3P gunners with big C presence. Like a 1-2 punch through the Swiss cheese. The thing that augments that problem is we can’t match a 3P blitz on offense, since Zach is the only shooter you can consistently rely on.

The b2b Sixers losses were concerning, as were the Warriors. And of course the Rockets. But all 4 games, teams were exceptionally hot from the arc. The East squads that obviously come to mind are the two loaded squads we haven’t played yet: Miami and Atlanta.

If you play Vuc, then rebounds are secured but low-post and 3P buckets are given up. If you play DJJ/mini-C, then we tend to really get killed on the glass unless the team has no discipline. Bradley just seems to be a serviceable but below-average stop-gap in most match-ups.

I think MIA/ATL will be good measures of whether it’s our scheme, or just coincidental hot nights. If we get handily whipped, it’ll be a confirmation that we really are at best a 2-round team until somebody else really steps up (Vuc, Coby, Javonte, Ayo). You also don’t want irrational expectations, but obviously Vuc and Coby should be capable of shooting better.

Lol the Bucks have Giannis and won the title last year.

They could have started 10-20, and they'd still be more of a "contender" than us.

It's a superstar league and we don't have one. Teams built around Derozan and Vuc aren't contenders. You don't get to use that word.


Do you think you're being clever with the Zach hate here?
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#418 » by TheSuzerain » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:56 am

ch434355 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
Bit extreme. Hawks and Bucks started the season horribly. Teams get hot and cold; injuries and lineup changes can drastically change chemistry. A 5pt. Nov. road loss isn’t indicative of the big picture. Miami lost to Minnesota; are they a joke?

The team has flaws, but all teams do. Even the Warriors; they sit very well, but things can go sideways fast. It’s really a house built on a 100% Curry, whereas that 14-19 team could make the finals with him missing almost the entire first 3 rounds.

Really, I’d say our shot is as good as anybody’s. Just depends on who’s most healthy at the last stage of the marathon.

The biggest defensive flag to me has been our inability to hang with 3P gunners with big C presence. Like a 1-2 punch through the Swiss cheese. The thing that augments that problem is we can’t match a 3P blitz on offense, since Zach is the only shooter you can consistently rely on.

The b2b Sixers losses were concerning, as were the Warriors. And of course the Rockets. But all 4 games, teams were exceptionally hot from the arc. The East squads that obviously come to mind are the two loaded squads we haven’t played yet: Miami and Atlanta.

If you play Vuc, then rebounds are secured but low-post and 3P buckets are given up. If you play DJJ/mini-C, then we tend to really get killed on the glass unless the team has no discipline. Bradley just seems to be a serviceable but below-average stop-gap in most match-ups.

I think MIA/ATL will be good measures of whether it’s our scheme, or just coincidental hot nights. If we get handily whipped, it’ll be a confirmation that we really are at best a 2-round team until somebody else really steps up (Vuc, Coby, Javonte, Ayo). You also don’t want irrational expectations, but obviously Vuc and Coby should be capable of shooting better.

Lol the Bucks have Giannis and won the title last year.

They could have started 10-20, and they'd still be more of a "contender" than us.

It's a superstar league and we don't have one. Teams built around Derozan and Vuc aren't contenders. You don't get to use that word.


Do you think you're being clever with the Zach hate here?

What Zach hate? He's the most legit star we have I'd say.

But I didn't know people thought he was a superstar.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#419 » by Almost Retired » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:20 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:You guys might want to give the guy atleast 15 games

Personally, I’ve never been a fan but I’m rooting for the guy to succeed.

My issue is the lack of defensive skill. I doubt think he fits for that reason but with that being said, I’m no expert. Lou Williams made it his entire career only playing on one side so I guess it depends on the teams needs. We need a bench scorer.


From video I've seen and stories I've read Coby is probably one of the most likable players on the Team. I have wanted him to succeed. But I question his BBIQ which really exposes him on the defensive end. I suppose I'd give him until the end of the year. But with what I've seen so far I think Ayo has more of a chance to develop a consistent 3 ball than Coby has of growing his BBIQ and becoming an adequate defender. Ayo can go and spend some off season time with Drew Hanlen at Pure Sweat Basketball and really work on his outside shooting. Ayo already shows more promise defensively and a much higher BBIQ than Coby. When he's hot Coby might be valuable for bench scoring. But Ayo is going to be the better all around player. Best scenario would be for Coby to round into shape and show enough to make him a better trade chip in the next off season. With what the Bulls are going to have on their books after signing Zach I can't see Coby earning a 2nd contract with us. Better to get something for him at the trade deadline or after the season. We can use one of our 1st round picks to draft the best shooter on the board and have that player on a cheap rookie contract, and use the other pick for Drew Timme for bench help at the 4/5.
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Re: Coby White discussion thread 

Post#420 » by dougthonus » Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:10 pm

Almost Retired wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:You guys might want to give the guy atleast 15 games

Personally, I’ve never been a fan but I’m rooting for the guy to succeed.

My issue is the lack of defensive skill. I doubt think he fits for that reason but with that being said, I’m no expert. Lou Williams made it his entire career only playing on one side so I guess it depends on the teams needs. We need a bench scorer.


From video I've seen and stories I've read Coby is probably one of the most likable players on the Team. I have wanted him to succeed. But I question his BBIQ which really exposes him on the defensive end. I suppose I'd give him until the end of the year. But with what I've seen so far I think Ayo has more of a chance to develop a consistent 3 ball than Coby has of growing his BBIQ and becoming an adequate defender. Ayo can go and spend some off season time with Drew Hanlen at Pure Sweat Basketball and really work on his outside shooting. Ayo already shows more promise defensively and a much higher BBIQ than Coby. When he's hot Coby might be valuable for bench scoring. But Ayo is going to be the better all around player. Best scenario would be for Coby to round into shape and show enough to make him a better trade chip in the next off season. With what the Bulls are going to have on their books after signing Zach I can't see Coby earning a 2nd contract with us. Better to get something for him at the trade deadline or after the season. We can use one of our 1st round picks to draft the best shooter on the board and have that player on a cheap rookie contract, and use the other pick for Drew Timme for bench help at the 4/5.


It's worth noting in this comparison, that Ayo and Coby are basically the same age and thus developmentally should be about in the same place.

I don't say this to mean one is better than the other, but because Ayo is a rookie, people sometimes feel like he should be further behind Coby and will make these incredibly quick improvements. Ayo's an older rookie, and while he probably will make some gains getting used to the league (and may simply be a much better player), he's had a pretty similar time to develop his game to date.

That said, I'd probably bet on Ayo over Coby at this point too.
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