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WCJ or Lauri

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Who would you keep?

Wendell Carter Jr
47
62%
Lauri Markkanen
29
38%
 
Total votes: 76

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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#101 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 2, 2020 4:28 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Absolutely agree with the bolded part. And as I've said many times, I don't believe Markkanen is really a 40% shooter in the long run. HOWEVER... it's just as disingenuous to say that he's "shooting" 35% or something. He's not.

Everyone knows very well that Lauri had one of the worst shooting slumps in recent memory, but after a month of 42% 3pt shooting on considerable volume, that one's over and done with. This is a case where his season average really is useless. Or would you limit Lauri's shots in January since he's only "shooting" 35% for the season? No, you wouldn't, because you know he's got a hot hand.


For his career, Lauri has made 338 of 944 3p shots, or 35.8% of them.

By year:
1. 36.2%
2. 36.1%
3. 34.6%

I guess calling him a 36% 3p shooter would be more accurate than 35%.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#102 » by ZOMG » Thu Jan 2, 2020 4:41 pm

coldfish wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Absolutely agree with the bolded part. And as I've said many times, I don't believe Markkanen is really a 40% shooter in the long run. HOWEVER... it's just as disingenuous to say that he's "shooting" 35% or something. He's not.

Everyone knows very well that Lauri had one of the worst shooting slumps in recent memory, but after a month of 42% 3pt shooting on considerable volume, that one's over and done with. This is a case where his season average really is useless. Or would you limit Lauri's shots in January since he's only "shooting" 35% for the season? No, you wouldn't, because you know he's got a hot hand.


For his career, Lauri has made 338 of 944 3p shots, or 35.8% of them.

By year:
1. 36.2%
2. 36.1%
3. 34.6%

I guess calling him a 36% 3p shooter would be more accurate than 35%.


I have no problem with that, particularly if he posts a 3rd consecutive 36% season this year (and believe he will, more or less). But for a while now, he hasn't been "shooting 35%". That's important as it's held against him as a sign that he's somehow playing badly NOW.

I'll look at the final season averages when the season is over, but right now Lauri is showing that he should get a LOT more shots to help his team win. It would be crazy not to maximally utilize a 7ft dude who's shooting lights out from the perimeter. Every sensible team would run him there through 3 screens and just let him fire, over and over.

But there's nobody at the wheel on this team, so he makes a shot and then doesn't touch the ball for 3 minutes. So frustrating. Use your f***ing weapons.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#103 » by chefo » Thu Jan 2, 2020 6:17 pm

I think the narrative is becoming a bit too skewed with expressions that are not looked in context. Examples:

1. "Lauri cannot create his own shot."--what does that mean in the context of a 7 footer who is not the primary, secondary... or even tertiary ball handler on the court? He's not Al Jefferson and can't post up. Sure, that's true. But I don't remember him having ANY issues getting a good shot from the FT elbows pretty much any time he got the ball there his first couple of years. He did his little half spin and just shot over people and he has an incredibly soft touch from that spot. The Bulls removed that shot from the entire team's arsenal by design. Dunn doesn't do it and that's the only thing he did well on offense. Lauri doesn't do it any more either. So, to me the premise that he can't create his own shot is flawed. We actually know he can, if he gets the ball in his spots... and we actually know what these spots are. You can't ask of him to handle the ball from the 3 point line consistently (it can be done against certain match-ups) like guys that are half-a-foot shorter than him.

2. "Lauri is an average shooter." Lauri is right on the cusp of where teams really do not want him to be open. And, most importantly, Lauri shoots a very high volume, not just for a 4, but for any player, and has a quick trigger from 3, with a very high release. Lately, I've been surprised at how many well-contested 3s he makes because he just shoots over the top. Lauri, whether he has a good game or not, is treated by good defenses like a 40% shooter (just like Niko was) and that is a huge advantage scheme-wise. Not everybody can do that--Thad and WCJ are pretty much left to do what they want outside of 15 feet. Lauri has a guy in his shorts 25 feet out. He is only one of two Bulls currently, with the other being Zach, that is being obviously game-planned for. That's not replaceable by some random scrub--example being Bobby Portis. When he was here, teams were leaving him wide open, even though he was shooting it just as well--and Bobby is no scrub on O by any stretch and often got doubled when posting up--but teams only guarded him from 3, if he was having a hot game. Lauri has 'gravity' like a really good shooter and unless you're a threat to hit 5 or 6 in a game, opposing teams are not going to give just any guy the same defensive attention.

3. "Lauri is a poor rebounder for a 4." I'd say he's about average. Rebounding, apart from certain individual freaks, is a lot about team schematics. Rolo, as has been pointed out, was probably the best at boxing out in the entire league. Dude was superb at positioning and taking out sometimes multiple guys out. Bulls don't have that any more. As a matter of fact, the entire team sucks at boxing out... and obviously, it's not a point of emphasis by the coaches, if I see it happen pretty much every game by multiple players. As coldfish pointed out, Lauri does not seem to be a 'go-get-it' kind of rebounder, but I do not remember him being man-handled on the boards. If its near him, he usually gets it.

Dude had a really horrible November, for whatever reason. I get that people are pissed off at him. But, he had a December where he was an almost perfect 2nd/3rd banana on O and had a +13 net rating on a team that went .500. 18 & 6 with a 65% TS and that's in only 30 mins/game. The last several games that I watched, he was doing exactly what he was asked to do in the Bulls O: pull his guy out of the paint, and hit his shots when they were available. Yes, they ran some plays for him. But, in the context of the Bulls O, he's treated like a third option, with a usage lower than Coby White, and on par with such luminaries like Thad (who's been playing like bad Lauri all year) and Val, with two of these 3 being by far the worst Bulls that get consistent minutes and touches. I'm sorry--that's abysmal coaching no matter how you look at it. If they can't scheme a way to get your hot hand (for a whole month in December) more involved in the O, they suck at their job (we kind of already knew that). Right now, it's Zach (because he has the ball in his hands all the time) and everybody else, usage-wise--and that's not surprising, given the O they run. Equal opportunity sucks when you're not the primary ball-handler, but the previous second banana.

Anyhow, Lauri had a great December and even if that flawed, under-used Lauri is what you get, that's better until WCJ can prove he can do anything on O that is not a spoon-fed dunk. I think he can, he has the talent and could do it in college, and god knows teams don't give a **** about anything he does on O so he has all the space in the world, but until he does, he'll be a 6'9 garbage-man, and as I mentioned a couple of pages earlier--that can be a valuable complimentary cog in a good team, but that kind of player gets you nowhere if he is one of your top 3 players.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#104 » by BigUps » Thu Jan 2, 2020 6:45 pm

cjbulls wrote:
BigUps wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:
I don't know what trading Carter for a draft pick accomplishes. Unless you're getting a draft pick that's clearly in the range to draft a star prospect, you're more likely to have the same problem you do now.


It offers you a chance at a star. Its no guarantee at one, but from my point of view I know WCJ isn't going to be one. If I have another pick I can target a player I may think could be one. Thats all. Its not going to happen though so there isn't much of a reason to dissect this.

My point is that WCJ is a role player. Lauri is too. Thats my "hot take" on them.


So you would have traded Harden, Steph, Klay, Draymond, Giannis, Jokic, Beal, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler and a host of other players who didn’t look like stars by year 2.


I mean, possibly, yeah. You list the anomalies here though (and many listed showed signs of stardom too). Most players that don't look like stars by year 2 don't ever turn into them. That's like 98% of the players you should have listed.

Listen, Lauri is a tough call. I'm not trying to say he's not, but I just don't think he has the Alpha Dog in him to become a star.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#105 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 2, 2020 7:17 pm

ZOMG wrote:
I have no problem with that, particularly if he posts a 3rd consecutive 36% season this year (and believe he will, more or less). But for a while now, he hasn't been "shooting 35%". That's important as it's held against him as a sign that he's somehow playing badly NOW.

I'll look at the final season averages when the season is over, but right now Lauri is showing that he should get a LOT more shots to help his team win. It would be crazy not to maximally utilize a 7ft dude who's shooting lights out from the perimeter. Every sensible team would run him there through 3 screens and just let him fire, over and over.

But there's nobody at the wheel on this team, so he makes a shot and then doesn't touch the ball for 3 minutes. So frustrating. Use your f***ing weapons.


We have had this discussion before. If you don't create your own shot, its extremely rare for teams to get a guy a high volume of looks. Near impossible in reality. For a guy who is assisted virtually every shot, Lauri gets a ton of FGA's.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#106 » by cjbulls » Thu Jan 2, 2020 7:32 pm

BigUps wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
BigUps wrote:
It offers you a chance at a star. Its no guarantee at one, but from my point of view I know WCJ isn't going to be one. If I have another pick I can target a player I may think could be one. Thats all. Its not going to happen though so there isn't much of a reason to dissect this.

My point is that WCJ is a role player. Lauri is too. Thats my "hot take" on them.


So you would have traded Harden, Steph, Klay, Draymond, Giannis, Jokic, Beal, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler and a host of other players who didn’t look like stars by year 2.


I mean, possibly, yeah. You list the anomalies here though (and many listed showed signs of stardom too). Most players that don't look like stars by year 2 don't ever turn into them. That's like 98% of the players you should have listed.

Listen, Lauri is a tough call. I'm not trying to say he's not, but I just don't think he has the Alpha Dog in him to become a star.


Because that is not a viable way to build a team. Keeping a roster full of lottery tickets prohibits development and you get nowhere for a looooong time. And then when you do get a star he wants to leave because you’re a loser team that never wins and you have no supporting players. Doesn’t sound like a winning strategy.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#107 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 2, 2020 7:32 pm

chefo wrote:I think the narrative is becoming a bit too skewed with expressions that are not looked in context. Examples:

1. "Lauri cannot create his own shot."--what does that mean in the context of a 7 footer who is not the primary, secondary... or even tertiary ball handler on the court? He's not Al Jefferson and can't post up. Sure, that's true. But I don't remember him having ANY issues getting a good shot from the FT elbows pretty much any time he got the ball there his first couple of years. He did his little half spin and just shot over people and he has an incredibly soft touch from that spot. The Bulls removed that shot from the entire team's arsenal by design. Dunn doesn't do it and that's the only thing he did well on offense. Lauri doesn't do it any more either. So, to me the premise that he can't create his own shot is flawed. We actually know he can, if he gets the ball in his spots... and we actually know what these spots are. You can't ask of him to handle the ball from the 3 point line consistently (it can be done against certain match-ups) like guys that are half-a-foot shorter than him.


This year, he is really struggling to get his own shot. You are right that its worse than before. At one point recently, he had ZERO unassisted shots from more than 15 feet. He isn't showing a mid post game, pull up shots, not able to run a pick and roll, etc.
2. "Lauri is an average shooter." Lauri is right on the cusp of where teams really do not want him to be open. And, most importantly, Lauri shoots a very high volume, not just for a 4, but for any player, and has a quick trigger from 3, with a very high release. Lately, I've been surprised at how many well-contested 3s he makes because he just shoots over the top. Lauri, whether he has a good game or not, is treated by good defenses like a 40% shooter (just like Niko was) and that is a huge advantage scheme-wise. Not everybody can do that--Thad and WCJ are pretty much left to do what they want outside of 15 feet. Lauri has a guy in his shorts 25 feet out. He is only one of two Bulls currently, with the other being Zach, that is being obviously game-planned for. That's not replaceable by some random scrub--example being Bobby Portis. When he was here, teams were leaving him wide open, even though he was shooting it just as well--and Bobby is no scrub on O by any stretch and often got doubled when posting up--but teams only guarded him from 3, if he was having a hot game. Lauri has 'gravity' like a really good shooter and unless you're a threat to hit 5 or 6 in a game, opposing teams are not going to give just any guy the same defensive attention.


A long time ago, finding anyone to shoot the 3 was hard. 10 years ago, finding a big who could shoot the 3 was hard. Nowadays, a lot of players shoot the 3. As was noted, Lauri is currently 109th out of 145 qualified players for 3p percentage. At BEST that's average.
3. "Lauri is a poor rebounder for a 4." I'd say he's about average. Rebounding, apart from certain individual freaks, is a lot about team schematics. Rolo, as has been pointed out, was probably the best at boxing out in the entire league. Dude was superb at positioning and taking out sometimes multiple guys out. Bulls don't have that any more. As a matter of fact, the entire team sucks at boxing out... and obviously, it's not a point of emphasis by the coaches, if I see it happen pretty much every game by multiple players. As coldfish pointed out, Lauri does not seem to be a 'go-get-it' kind of rebounder, but I do not remember him being man-handled on the boards. If its near him, he usually gets it.


I thought that PF's get 15 to 18% rebounding rates. Realistically nowadays its 12 to 14%. Lauri is normally on the bottom of the range of that but its not by orders of magnitude.

Anyhow, Lauri had a great December and even if that flawed, under-used Lauri is what you get, that's better until WCJ can prove he can do anything on O that is not a spoon-fed dunk. I think he can, he has the talent and could do it in college, and god knows teams don't give a **** about anything he does on O so he has all the space in the world, but until he does, he'll be a 6'9 garbage-man, and as I mentioned a couple of pages earlier--that can be a valuable complimentary cog in a good team, but that kind of player gets you nowhere if he is one of your top 3 players.


Lauri is, at this point seemingly by his own choice, just a shooter. He has no post game, doesn't pass, doesn't put the ball on the floor, is a horrific help defender, an average at best rebounder. Since he doesn't use his size, he can be replaced by countless slightly smaller PF's and you can likely get more out of them. Just shooting 36% from 3 is no big deal.

You are right about Wendell. He looks like his upside is a defensive specialist. He can be a role playing center and 5th best guy on a high level team.

Lauri? He is carving out a niche as a bench shooter. A 9th man. If Thad hadn't been so horrible this year, people would be suggesting that Lauri lose his starting spot.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#108 » by PaKii94 » Thu Jan 2, 2020 9:21 pm

coldfish wrote:
chefo wrote:I think the narrative is becoming a bit too skewed with expressions that are not looked in context. Examples:

1. "Lauri cannot create his own shot."--what does that mean in the context of a 7 footer who is not the primary, secondary... or even tertiary ball handler on the court? He's not Al Jefferson and can't post up. Sure, that's true. But I don't remember him having ANY issues getting a good shot from the FT elbows pretty much any time he got the ball there his first couple of years. He did his little half spin and just shot over people and he has an incredibly soft touch from that spot. The Bulls removed that shot from the entire team's arsenal by design. Dunn doesn't do it and that's the only thing he did well on offense. Lauri doesn't do it any more either. So, to me the premise that he can't create his own shot is flawed. We actually know he can, if he gets the ball in his spots... and we actually know what these spots are. You can't ask of him to handle the ball from the 3 point line consistently (it can be done against certain match-ups) like guys that are half-a-foot shorter than him.



2. "Lauri is an average shooter." Lauri is right on the cusp of where teams really do not want him to be open. And, most importantly, Lauri shoots a very high volume, not just for a 4, but for any player, and has a quick trigger from 3, with a very high release. Lately, I've been surprised at how many well-contested 3s he makes because he just shoots over the top. Lauri, whether he has a good game or not, is treated by good defenses like a 40% shooter (just like Niko was) and that is a huge advantage scheme-wise. Not everybody can do that--Thad and WCJ are pretty much left to do what they want outside of 15 feet. Lauri has a guy in his shorts 25 feet out. He is only one of two Bulls currently, with the other being Zach, that is being obviously game-planned for. That's not replaceable by some random scrub--example being Bobby Portis. When he was here, teams were leaving him wide open, even though he was shooting it just as well--and Bobby is no scrub on O by any stretch and often got doubled when posting up--but teams only guarded him from 3, if he was having a hot game. Lauri has 'gravity' like a really good shooter and unless you're a threat to hit 5 or 6 in a game, opposing teams are not going to give just any guy the same defensive attention.


3. "Lauri is a poor rebounder for a 4." I'd say he's about average. Rebounding, apart from certain individual freaks, is a lot about team schematics. Rolo, as has been pointed out, was probably the best at boxing out in the entire league. Dude was superb at positioning and taking out sometimes multiple guys out. Bulls don't have that any more. As a matter of fact, the entire team sucks at boxing out... and obviously, it's not a point of emphasis by the coaches, if I see it happen pretty much every game by multiple players. As coldfish pointed out, Lauri does not seem to be a 'go-get-it' kind of rebounder, but I do not remember him being man-handled on the boards. If its near him, he usually gets it.


Anyhow, Lauri had a great December and even if that flawed, under-used Lauri is what you get, that's better until WCJ can prove he can do anything on O that is not a spoon-fed dunk. I think he can, he has the talent and could do it in college, and god knows teams don't give a **** about anything he does on O so he has all the space in the world, but until he does, he'll be a 6'9 garbage-man, and as I mentioned a couple of pages earlier--that can be a valuable complimentary cog in a good team, but that kind of player gets you nowhere if he is one of your top 3 players.



You are right about Wendell. He looks like his upside is a defensive specialist. He can be a role playing center and 5th best guy on a high level team.

Lauri? He is carving out a niche as a bench shooter. A 9th man. If Thad hadn't been so horrible this year, people would be suggesting that Lauri lose his starting spot.




This year, he is really struggling to get his own shot. You are right that its worse than before. At one point recently, he had ZERO unassisted shots from more than 15 feet. He isn't showing a mid post game, pull up shots, not able to run a pick and roll, etc.


System problem.

A long time ago, finding anyone to shoot the 3 was hard. 10 years ago, finding a big who could shoot the 3 was hard. Nowadays, a lot of players shoot the 3. As was noted, Lauri is currently 109th out of 145 qualified players for 3p percentage. At BEST that's average.


And where does he rank in volume? Efficiency and volume go hand in hand (also again that number included his horrible start. Where would his career average of 36 rank? Or the 40 in Dec?)

Lauri is, at this point seemingly by his own choice, just a shooter. He has no post game, doesn't pass, doesn't put the ball on the floor, is a horrific help defender, an average at best rebounder. Since he doesn't use his size, he can be replaced by countless slightly smaller PF's and you can likely get more out of them. Just shooting 36% from 3 is no big deal.


Or maybe he's not showing that anymore due to the system? We had a whole news storyline about how Zach isn't allowed to take mid-range jumpers, maybe Lauri is also restricted like that. We know Lauri isn't a take over kinda guy. He plays team ball and that's how the team wants him to play
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#109 » by FranchisePlayer » Thu Jan 2, 2020 9:23 pm

coldfish wrote:
Lauri? He is carving out a niche as a bench shooter. A 9th man. If Thad hadn't been so horrible this year, people would be suggesting that Lauri lose his starting spot.


If? If.

If Lauri would've continued his season after the opening game as usual, this thread wouldn't exist.
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.

12/2/2022
I like the quote- it makes me chuckle. And it was/is pretty much true.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#110 » by chefo » Thu Jan 2, 2020 9:28 pm

coldfish wrote:
chefo wrote:I think the narrative is becoming a bit too skewed with expressions that are not looked in context. Examples:

1. "Lauri cannot create his own shot."--what does that mean in the context of a 7 footer who is not the primary, secondary... or even tertiary ball handler on the court? He's not Al Jefferson and can't post up. Sure, that's true. But I don't remember him having ANY issues getting a good shot from the FT elbows pretty much any time he got the ball there his first couple of years. He did his little half spin and just shot over people and he has an incredibly soft touch from that spot. The Bulls removed that shot from the entire team's arsenal by design. Dunn doesn't do it and that's the only thing he did well on offense. Lauri doesn't do it any more either. So, to me the premise that he can't create his own shot is flawed. We actually know he can, if he gets the ball in his spots... and we actually know what these spots are. You can't ask of him to handle the ball from the 3 point line consistently (it can be done against certain match-ups) like guys that are half-a-foot shorter than him.


This year, he is really struggling to get his own shot. You are right that its worse than before. At one point recently, he had ZERO unassisted shots from more than 15 feet. He isn't showing a mid post game, pull up shots, not able to run a pick and roll, etc.
2. "Lauri is an average shooter." Lauri is right on the cusp of where teams really do not want him to be open. And, most importantly, Lauri shoots a very high volume, not just for a 4, but for any player, and has a quick trigger from 3, with a very high release. Lately, I've been surprised at how many well-contested 3s he makes because he just shoots over the top. Lauri, whether he has a good game or not, is treated by good defenses like a 40% shooter (just like Niko was) and that is a huge advantage scheme-wise. Not everybody can do that--Thad and WCJ are pretty much left to do what they want outside of 15 feet. Lauri has a guy in his shorts 25 feet out. He is only one of two Bulls currently, with the other being Zach, that is being obviously game-planned for. That's not replaceable by some random scrub--example being Bobby Portis. When he was here, teams were leaving him wide open, even though he was shooting it just as well--and Bobby is no scrub on O by any stretch and often got doubled when posting up--but teams only guarded him from 3, if he was having a hot game. Lauri has 'gravity' like a really good shooter and unless you're a threat to hit 5 or 6 in a game, opposing teams are not going to give just any guy the same defensive attention.


A long time ago, finding anyone to shoot the 3 was hard. 10 years ago, finding a big who could shoot the 3 was hard. Nowadays, a lot of players shoot the 3. As was noted, Lauri is currently 109th out of 145 qualified players for 3p percentage. At BEST that's average.
3. "Lauri is a poor rebounder for a 4." I'd say he's about average. Rebounding, apart from certain individual freaks, is a lot about team schematics. Rolo, as has been pointed out, was probably the best at boxing out in the entire league. Dude was superb at positioning and taking out sometimes multiple guys out. Bulls don't have that any more. As a matter of fact, the entire team sucks at boxing out... and obviously, it's not a point of emphasis by the coaches, if I see it happen pretty much every game by multiple players. As coldfish pointed out, Lauri does not seem to be a 'go-get-it' kind of rebounder, but I do not remember him being man-handled on the boards. If its near him, he usually gets it.


I thought that PF's get 15 to 18% rebounding rates. Realistically nowadays its 12 to 14%. Lauri is normally on the bottom of the range of that but its not by orders of magnitude.

Anyhow, Lauri had a great December and even if that flawed, under-used Lauri is what you get, that's better until WCJ can prove he can do anything on O that is not a spoon-fed dunk. I think he can, he has the talent and could do it in college, and god knows teams don't give a **** about anything he does on O so he has all the space in the world, but until he does, he'll be a 6'9 garbage-man, and as I mentioned a couple of pages earlier--that can be a valuable complimentary cog in a good team, but that kind of player gets you nowhere if he is one of your top 3 players.


Lauri is, at this point seemingly by his own choice, just a shooter. He has no post game, doesn't pass, doesn't put the ball on the floor, is a horrific help defender, an average at best rebounder. Since he doesn't use his size, he can be replaced by countless slightly smaller PF's and you can likely get more out of them. Just shooting 36% from 3 is no big deal.

You are right about Wendell. He looks like his upside is a defensive specialist. He can be a role playing center and 5th best guy on a high level team.

Lauri? He is carving out a niche as a bench shooter. A 9th man. If Thad hadn't been so horrible this year, people would be suggesting that Lauri lose his starting spot.


About shot creation: Your point is fair that he doesn't use it anymore so should we count it in his skill-set?

I think our biggest disagreement is on what Lauri version we're talking about... and in what O scheme they are playing.

I will not hold it against him that he is not using one of his favorite spots when we've been told that the coaches told him not to. Another coach may think differently about it, I know I definitely would. If you look at Lauri last year, we know that he can get a fairly quality look by himself. I don't think he just woke up one morning and forgot how to do a mini 15-foot fade-away from the FT. I am much more inclined to believe that the coaches prohibited that shot unless there are 2 secs left on the clock. Given that he used to love the mid-range/high post (don't have splits and don't know how to get them, but to me it seemed he liked playing mid-post), is it a system issue or a personal choice? Maybe both, maybe one more than the other.

If you're an optimist, you sure should hope it's the system and Lauri is just being a good soldier that a competent staff can unleash in time. If you're a pessimist, you'll say--Lauri does not have a motor, and no matter what the system, he should be doing things better and he's not--he's capped as a player. I tend to be the former, not least because we saw that he can do it--not for a game or two, but for a whole month... and that was when his shot was not so hot from deep. This tells me he is better than he is showing this year, and I've described plenty of times why I think that it mostly has to do with coaching.

As a funny note, I think Lauri will get much better once he gets paid, compared to now. I think he is the exact opposite of a try-hard-for-a-contract-year-type. Right now I think he feels he's one of the guys. Hell, he said as much and I can see where his head is at, even though I disagree 'bigly' with his approach and attitude. He is one of the worst paid players on the team, but he has said that he has so much money he doesn't know what to do with it. I don't think he understands his professional 'star' power over the organization like a US player does. I don't think Lauri is the type to create havoc and ask for a trade if he doesn't like what he sees... may be his entourage will, in time.

I think once he gets paid, he'll consider it a bigger responsibility and become much, much more aggressive... and that gets you FebruLauri who was a top 15 player. Maybe he'll have the balls to tell his coach that he shouldn't be used as a weak-side spacer 80% of the team's possessions. Right now, he's a bit too much of a choir boy, even though it's hurt both his game and the team. That's what the team needs--blah, blah. Screw it. You have a talent that nobody outside of Zach can come anywhere near to. He needs to be nudged and shoved, if need be, to be a more selfish, aggressive player. In a different thread I said that I would straight up micro-manage him and his development. The current coaching staff's approach of 'a-cog-in-the-machine' is the absolute worst approach to take with a guy like him, IMO.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#111 » by MrSparkle » Thu Jan 2, 2020 10:16 pm

I have to be honest. If I was a GM, I'd have my finger on the button and immediately sell high on both Wendell AND Lauri.

There is no way in hell I would wait 4 years and play the RFA game with big men who aren't "guaranteed" all-stars. They have a fringe star ceiling , and pretty mediocre/average metrics amongst big men.

That said, I'll take Wendell over Lauri. Atleast he has the potential to become a glue/two-way anchor. Tough pill to swallow if he's averaging 18/10 or so in 2022 and demands the max.

I'm sounding like a broken record, but you only really get a shot at about 2 max contracts before your cap is jacked and limited long-term. I feel it's a basic pre-requisite that one of them be a star two-way wing, and the other be a star playmaker (whether he's a wing or a PG or even a point center, just anybody who can make easy plays/assists, draw double teams, etc.).

Problem with every Pax Bulls team besides 2014-16, he had too much cap invested in defensive specialists and low-post bums (literally, guys meant to be low-post threats but ended up being high-post bums). Then in 14-16, he had a pretty darn solid cap distribution at the top, however he overloaded on big men and stiffs, and the one thing he had done well for 10 years prior... there were no serviceable hustle/energy role-players.

Building around Lauri and Wendell makes no sense. If Lauri had some more cat-like defensive skills, and Wendell was more confident with the ball, it'd be an intriguing conversation, but these guys are both projects. They can become very good big men, but very good big men make less impact than very good wings.

I would seriously consider shuffling the deck with both before July. If Lauri catches fire in March, that'd be great. Of course Pax would fall in love again and keep him, but that'd be a great time to sell high.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#112 » by Am2626 » Thu Jan 2, 2020 10:56 pm

LateNight wrote:I see a lot of people suggesting we trade one of these two people to build around/with the other.

So - Which one would you rather keep: WCJ or Lauri?


It all depends on who you are trading for. I only want to see trades for a Superstar and someone the team can build around. The only realistic star available right now that I can think of would be KAT. WCJ is probably a better compliment for him so in that scenario Lauri probably would be the better person to go. The only 3 people with a higher PER this year than KAT are Giannis, Harden, and Luka. If using WCJ can land a player of KAT’s caliber then that’s fine too. This team desperately needs a true #1 option if they want any realistic championship aspirations.

You can’t build a championship contender with WCJ or Lauri as your centerpiece. That are both complementary players.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#113 » by PaKii94 » Thu Jan 2, 2020 11:05 pm

Am2626 wrote:
LateNight wrote:I see a lot of people suggesting we trade one of these two people to build around/with the other.

So - Which one would you rather keep: WCJ or Lauri?


It all depends on who you are trading for. I only want to see trades for a Superstar and someone the team can build around. The only realistic star available right now that I can think of would be KAT. WCJ is probably a better compliment for him so in that scenario Lauri probably would be the better person to go. The only 3 people with a higher PER this year than KAT are Giannis, Harden, and Luka. If using WCJ can land a player of KAT’s caliber then that’s fine too. This team desperately needs a true #1 option if they want any realistic championship aspirations.

You can’t build a championship contender with WCJ or Lauri as your centerpiece. That are both complementary players.



Superstar KAT is leading his team to a worse record than our current bulls. Big men need a good pg
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#114 » by Dez » Thu Jan 2, 2020 11:09 pm

ZOMG wrote:
Dez wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:
Pretty much this. Replacing Rolo with Carter only cannibalized the rebound department and Lauris stats will look much worse even if he hasnt regressed at all. I was a huge anti Rolo guy but I will credit him giving rebounds to Lauri.


Are you actually trying to blame Carter for Lauri's lack of rebounding?


There isn't a "lack of rebounding". Carter spends all his time under the basket - it would be shocking if he didn't get more boards than Lauri.

As I've said before, Lauri could afford to be more aggressive when rebounding in chaotic situations where plays/rotations have broken down, but on the whole, his rebounding is well in line with other PF's with similar games. He's just a whipping boy so this is one of those things where it's easy to blame him.


There is a lack of rebounding from Lauri, the comment wasn't about Carter getting more boards than Lauri because we all know that's a given. It's about Lauri being passive and lazy on the boards, he gives absolutely minimal effort when he has to fight for boards.

These are legitimate issues with Lauri and it's not just "he's a whipping boy" so we'll just ignore them.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#115 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 2, 2020 11:38 pm

And where does he rank in volume? Efficiency and volume go hand in hand (also again that number included his horrible start. Where would his career average of 36 rank? Or the 40 in Dec?)
[/quote]

Markkanen is 41st in 3 pointers made per game this year. It would be difficult for me to rank Lauri's 40% because I would have to go around the league and take everyone's best month. Suffice it to say, lots of players have shot 40% for a month.


Or maybe he's not showing that anymore due to the system? We had a whole news storyline about how Zach isn't allowed to take mid-range jumpers, maybe Lauri is also restricted like that. We know Lauri isn't a take over kinda guy. He plays team ball and that's how the team wants him to play


Bulls were running the same system to start the year that they were when Lauri went off in February last year and when he scored 35 to start the year. They actually added lots of sets that were Lauri focused. You can't tout the 40% in December without noting just how badly the Bulls are bending over for Lauri.

Just as a reminder:
https://www.espn.com/nba/game?gameId=401160625

I guarantee you that after Lauri went off for 35 points on 13/25 shooting, no one said "stop that" to him. You can even look at his shot chart and see most of his shots were 3p or in the paint. Him not being aggressive is on *him* and its a flaw. A pretty big one.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#116 » by coldfish » Thu Jan 2, 2020 11:40 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
Am2626 wrote:
LateNight wrote:I see a lot of people suggesting we trade one of these two people to build around/with the other.

So - Which one would you rather keep: WCJ or Lauri?


It all depends on who you are trading for. I only want to see trades for a Superstar and someone the team can build around. The only realistic star available right now that I can think of would be KAT. WCJ is probably a better compliment for him so in that scenario Lauri probably would be the better person to go. The only 3 people with a higher PER this year than KAT are Giannis, Harden, and Luka. If using WCJ can land a player of KAT’s caliber then that’s fine too. This team desperately needs a true #1 option if they want any realistic championship aspirations.

You can’t build a championship contender with WCJ or Lauri as your centerpiece. That are both complementary players.



Superstar KAT is leading his team to a worse record than our current bulls. Big men need a good pg


KAT is one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA. Its why he didn't get along with Butler. The Wolves are an insane 12.3 points per 100 possessions worse on defense when he is on the court. Teams need big men who play defense.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#117 » by Red Larrivee » Fri Jan 3, 2020 12:03 am

coldfish wrote:Wendell vs Lauri is a test on what you think about help defense. A lot of people totally ignore it. Some people prioritize it. If you think its important, you are going to go with WCJ all day. If you don't, Lauri is your guy.

As others have noted, the fact that one does it and one doesn't makes them complementary. Same thing with outside shooting.

Overall, it would be great to have a superstar big man. I don't think either one of these guys fits the bill.

I wonder if Lauri fits any bill. IMO, he is easily replaceable. The only thing he does well is shoot and he isn't that great at it. I would prefer an athletic 6'9 to 6'10" guy who can hit 35% of his 3's, handle the ball and switch on defense.

Wendell is a little more difficult because he is a good help defender but he is still a role player level guy.


Good post.

So much of Carter's value is built on things that don't show up in a box score and doesn't make for a great YouTube reel. The fact that he leads the Bulls in WS (3.3) and is 4th among centers in DRPM (3.07) without generating a ton of steals or blocks like Kris Dunn, should tell you how good Carter is. If anyone can unlock his offensive potential, then we're talking about an ideal two-way center.

Markkanen is better than what he's shown this season, but we're still waiting on him to be really good at something. He's 38th out of 98 qualifiers in ORPM among PF's, which isn't awful, but it doesn't suggest a player whose absence will kill a team on offense. He's supposed to be an elite three-point shooter, but he's been more streaky than anything. Right now, he's basically Mirotic without the defense.

Carter at least gives you a chance of building a championship-level defense with his instincts, timing, and help defense as the anchor. I'm not sure what Markkanen gives you a shot at if he doesn't turn things around.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#118 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jan 3, 2020 3:32 am

Lauri got his first unassisted 3 today I think lol
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#119 » by MeloRoseNoah » Fri Jan 3, 2020 4:07 am

PaKii94 wrote:Lauri got his first unassisted 3 today I think lol


Nobody care about the production of the next Channing Frye.

Now, that Karl Malone Jr production tonight is just delicious. Some more of that please.
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Re: WCJ or Lauri 

Post#120 » by PaKii94 » Fri Jan 3, 2020 5:16 am

MeloRoseNoah wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:Lauri got his first unassisted 3 today I think lol


Nobody care about the production of the next Channing Frye.

Now, that Karl Malone Jr production tonight is just delicious. Some more of that please.


:o :lol:

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