2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[Ugly Duckling]

Check the below youtube on Wiseman, even early on. Is this a guy who looks like he has a slow jump or particularly heavy feet?

Watch on YouTube

You know who he kinda reminds me of? Andrew Bynum

[Ugly Duckling]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn't trade a future first for LaMelo, but if he fell to us I'd take him because of his upside relative to the rest of the class

[Leslie Forman]

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

I can never find the quote but I swear that all the way back in the Eighties Pat Riley said that the future of the NBA was positionless basketball, starting five 6' 8" guys who could run, dribble, score, and defend. I remember that argument when he made it and thought "Wow." Good call, Pat.

I mean, they won a title starting Magic at center against Daryl Dawkins once 40 years ago. The Bulls won multiple titles with 6'8" Rodman basically playing center next to basically four 6'6"-6'10" wings.

It's always been the future, there just hasn't been enough wing talent in the league to make it really happen on a widespread basis. It's finally starting to happen now, especially with bigs growing up idolizing Kobe/LeBron/Durant.

It's really no different from what's happening in soccer or hockey either. Analytics in every sport are showing that speed+skill+versatility are the killer attributes, not some big, low skill bruisers. Those guys are a seen as a waste of roster space in those sports now.

Check the below youtube on Wiseman, even early on. Is this a guy who looks like he has a slow jump or particularly heavy feet?

Watch on YouTube

If you think this is what spending your best asset since Jimmy Butler on an undervalued contract is a great idea, you have clearly not watched a single minute of the playoffs.

Maybe Wiseman is a stud, but it sure as hell won't be due to anything he's showing in this video. Daniel Gafford could do everything in that video.

[ChettheJet]

This is all speculation for today on YouTube and until I hear some scouts, TV analysts or college coaches point out negatives on all these kids this could all change. If the draft ends up being in November or even later the league has to find a way to get potential picks in some kind of camp, and get them in front of the people who could draft them on a court in some form. And when that happens every online mock draft will change dramatically, everybody here will come away with a new perspective on who goes where and what the Bulls can do at #4.

[Chi town]

That's where I'm at with Deni too. Seems like a good piece of the puzzle, but not necessarily a foundational type of piece. Add in that there's little precedent for a player whose a bad FT shooter becoming the kind of knockdown shooter that we need him to be.

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

Now, as small as the NBA is going with the Rockets and Dubs not even playing a C in crunch time it could be said the next wave of innovation and play style will be shorter, faster, stronger players like what we saw with OKC employing three PG's. This is why I am in on Killian Hayes if Deni isn't there.

No doubt, every team can use a Hedo or a Gallinari. I see him more among those guys, except there's a projection with his shooting ever panning out, than I do on the level of wing creators you mentioned.

But his D potential is really good. His IQ is so high and his weak side rim protection pops on film. He knows how to use his body and when to pick his spots. He’s aggressive and will be in foul trouble early on but he will also make momentum shifting plays.

[MrSparkle]

I see the appeal in Wiseman, but you just have to be real with placing value on big men.

3 out of 5 of the top centers were drafted late (Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, KAT, Bam). One of them (the lone #1 pick KAT) is a perennial loser.

Most of the effective starting centers are past-prime guys with high IQ, tons of strength, and limited mobility (Gasol, Ibaka, Brook, Vucevic, Adams).

2018 class: even I thought it would re-vitalize the center position. Which one of these guys have had an impact remotely close to Luka or Trae? None: Ayton, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, WCJ.

Then you go further back... Dragan, Okafor, WCS... Wiseman kind of reminds me of Cauley-Stein, who was a pretty elite center prospect.

I just think top-10 is way too high to take on a center these days, unless they're a finished product like Embiid. Bam was the perfect gamble at #13. Wiseman is not going to be scoring the basketball his first year in the NBA. So you've gotta ask yourself whether you want to run the 3-4 development risk on the off-chance he learns how to shoot 3Ps really well. If not, you've got Whiteside at best or WCS at worst.

These guys really need to be developed in low-pressure situations with established teams (i.e. squads that draft past the lotto). The whole premise of building around a center just makes no sense.

I see Wiseman's potential but even if he was an all-star by year 3 (which is really a gamble of a hope), we'd all be happier with a shoot/pass/defender home-run. It won't be a problem to move LaVine to SF if a PG is taken (LaMelo, Hayes, Hali). Either way the Bulls are gonna lose games, but at least you can sort a good problem if the pick proves to be a starter, as opposed to having Wiseman fight for WCJ's minutes.

[Clint Eastwood]

I see the appeal in Wiseman, but you just have to be real with placing value on big men.

3 out of 5 of the top centers were drafted late (Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, KAT, Bam). One of them (the lone #1 pick KAT) is a perennial loser.

Most of the effective starting centers are past-prime guys with high IQ, tons of strength, and limited mobility (Gasol, Ibaka, Brook, Vucevic, Adams).

2018 class: even I thought it would re-vitalize the center position. Which one of these guys have had an impact remotely close to Luka or Trae? None: Ayton, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, WCJ.

Then you go further back... Dragan, Okafor, WCS... Wiseman kind of reminds me of Cauley-Stein, who was a pretty elite center prospect.

I just think top-10 is way too high to take on a center these days, unless they're a finished product like Embiid. Bam was the perfect gamble at #13. Wiseman is not going to be scoring the basketball his first year in the NBA. So you've gotta ask yourself whether you want to run the 3-4 development risk on the off-chance he learns how to shoot 3Ps really well. If not, you've got Whiteside at best or WCS at worst.

These guys really need to be developed in low-pressure situations with established teams (i.e. squads that draft past the lotto). The whole premise of building around a center just makes no sense.

I see Wiseman's potential but even if he was an all-star by year 3 (which is really a gamble of a hope), we'd all be happier with a shoot/pass/defender home-run. It won't be a problem to move LaVine to SF if a PG is taken (LaMelo, Hayes, Hali). Either way the Bulls are gonna lose games, but at least you can sort a good problem if the pick proves to be a starter, as opposed to having Wiseman fight for WCJ's minutes.

Wiley cauley stein? Really. The guy who averaged 8.9pts/6Rb/1.7blocks per game as a junior in college. You compare that to a freshman who averaged 19/10/3 in his limited freshman year?

[PlayerUp]

I just think top-10 is way too high to take on a center these days, unless they're a finished product like Embiid. Bam was the perfect gamble at #13. Wiseman is not going to be scoring the basketball his first year in the NBA. So you've gotta ask yourself whether you want to run the 3-4 development risk on the off-chance he learns how to shoot 3Ps really well. If not, you've got Whiteside at best or WCS at worst.

These guys really need to be developed in low-pressure situations with established teams (i.e. squads that draft past the lotto). The whole premise of building around a center just makes no sense.

I see Wiseman's potential but even if he was an all-star by year 3 (which is really a gamble of a hope), we'd all be happier with a shoot/pass/defender home-run. It won't be a problem to move LaVine to SF if a PG is taken (LaMelo, Hayes, Hali). Either way the Bulls are gonna lose games, but at least you can sort a good problem if the pick proves to be a starter, as opposed to having Wiseman fight for WCJ's minutes.

This is exactly right.

Bigman are just not that impactful these days. It's a guard/forward league that needs shooters, creators, playmakers and dynamic scorers. Without those, your team goes no where. Bulls already invested on 2 bigman on the 2017 and 2018 drafts which need desperate help to turn their careers around.

We need to focus on loading up our backcourt.

[MrSparkle]

I see the appeal in Wiseman, but you just have to be real with placing value on big men.

3 out of 5 of the top centers were drafted late (Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, KAT, Bam). One of them (the lone #1 pick KAT) is a perennial loser.

Most of the effective starting centers are past-prime guys with high IQ, tons of strength, and limited mobility (Gasol, Ibaka, Brook, Vucevic, Adams).

2018 class: even I thought it would re-vitalize the center position. Which one of these guys have had an impact remotely close to Luka or Trae? None: Ayton, Bagley, JJJ, Bamba, WCJ.

Then you go further back... Dragan, Okafor, WCS... Wiseman kind of reminds me of Cauley-Stein, who was a pretty elite center prospect.

I just think top-10 is way too high to take on a center these days, unless they're a finished product like Embiid. Bam was the perfect gamble at #13. Wiseman is not going to be scoring the basketball his first year in the NBA. So you've gotta ask yourself whether you want to run the 3-4 development risk on the off-chance he learns how to shoot 3Ps really well. If not, you've got Whiteside at best or WCS at worst.

These guys really need to be developed in low-pressure situations with established teams (i.e. squads that draft past the lotto). The whole premise of building around a center just makes no sense.

I see Wiseman's potential but even if he was an all-star by year 3 (which is really a gamble of a hope), we'd all be happier with a shoot/pass/defender home-run. It won't be a problem to move LaVine to SF if a PG is taken (LaMelo, Hayes, Hali). Either way the Bulls are gonna lose games, but at least you can sort a good problem if the pick proves to be a starter, as opposed to having Wiseman fight for WCJ's minutes.

Wiley cauley stein? Really. The guy who averaged 8.9pts/6Rb/1.7blocks per game as a junior in college. You compare that to a freshman who averaged 19/10/3 in his limited freshman year?

Forgot Cauley-Stein was a junior. I just remember him being an active blocker with a 2nd jump, 240 lb. 7' athlete with some shooting potential... but reviewing college videos, Wiseman does have quicker feet.

But Wiseman's 3-game stats really are useless. South Carolina State Bulldogs and UIC Flames - neither of these even had a proper center to play against Wiseman. Memphis is a AAA recruiting school, the other two had zero NBA prospects.

So really, it's the 1 Oregon game that is a measure of anything, and they lost that game. You watch this game, and there's more not to like (than the good):

Watch on YouTube

[Chi town]

It's Okongwu fellas. Hop on board. The choice is clear.

If he's not there then I'd certainly try to trade down but still grab one of Haliburton or Hayes.

If it’s OO then he better be your center or Draymond.

I’m not betting on that.

[Chi town]

It's Okongwu fellas. Hop on board. The choice is clear.

If he's not there then I'd certainly try to trade down but still grab one of Haliburton or Hayes.

If it’s OO then he better be your center or Draymond.

I’m not betting on that.

Reminds me of Bam. 2xs more turnovers than assists. No thanks.

Watch on YouTube

[gobullschi]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

Agreed. LaMelo Ball should be the Bulls top priority - 100%.

The Bulls have enough talent to make the playoffs IF they can stay healthy. The problem is they haven’t been able to, which is what makes moving a future first round pick so difficult. What kind of protections? Is that the smartest asset to use to move up for him?

Lauri Markkanen is due for a contract extension, which (long-term) the Bulls will need to extend or possibly let him walk for nothing. The NBA is built on creating a “big three” and paying Markkanen a market contract means he must develop into one. (based on the $ he will command). I’m not so sure he is, but LaMelo Ball would be an ideal type of player to maximize Markkanen’s talent.

Otto Porter Jr. will be expecting a new contract next season. Is he in the Bull’s long-term future? Health has been a big issue. Is he the asset to move?

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

[drosereturn]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

As much as I love Lamelo as a 1st option if Edwards, Wiseman fall at 4 im not going to sacrifice another asset for him and
Lamelo could drop to 4 bc of GS and Hornets. Only way I move up is trade garbage men Carter.
Also future picks are very valuable. Its just really hard toss a pick even for Doncic at the time.
and yeah Lavine is not starting at sf. hes a disaster on defense.

[PlayerUp]

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

None.

#3 involving OPJ is nearly impossible to do because he makes nearly $30m and that requires taking back nearly $30m in other contracts.

[CjayC]

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

None.

#3 involving OPJ is nearly impossible to do because he makes nearly $30m and that requires taking back nearly $30m in other contracts.

If the Warriors are looking to trade down and clear up cap space we could take on Wiggins' contract and swap picks. I'd prefer not too though because the cap flexibility is better than being immediately tied down to a sizable contract.

[weneeda2guard]

A lot of people are predicting the warriors will take ball and then trade him down use him for a asset and to unload wiggins so they can go after giannis. I think we would be fools not to jump on that deal and we would recognize it quickly when we see ball in NY running around as a star pg all because we want to maintain "cap flexibility " for a free agency we are likely to strike out on again. Its highly unlikely davis leaves the lakers. And if giannis leaves he is def choosing the warriors over us. Not to mention toronto might be in hot pursuit for giannis which btw giannis has a great relationship with their gm. The 2 max slot plan is not a good one imo. Imo we can start thinking about free agency once we at least have a playoff team. We don't even have that right now.

I think the better course is to do everything we can to land a star in this draft and next years draft if we miss the playoffs again. And if we have to take on wiggin contract to potentially land a star pg who could be our star for the next 10 seasons then who cares about paying wiggins a couple of years. And its not like wiggins is a complete waste he is still productive at the small forward position and would be in a favorable position being a 4th or 5th option behind ball lavine coby and lauri. Sure it could fall apart but I dont mind the risk. We in that place where we need to take risk

[gobullschi]

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

None.

#3 involving OPJ is nearly impossible to do because he makes nearly $30m and that requires taking back nearly $30m in other contracts.

That’s just because you either don’t like LaMelo as a prospect or you’re being unreasonable.

The Bulls already got lucky when they moved up to 4. Moving up for LaMelo now will cost the Bulls a lot less assets. This perfect situation where the Bulls can get him without giving up anything of value doesn’t exist. It’s Lauri, future 1st, or cap space. There is a price to move up that all teams have to pay.

Here are 2 possibilities where the Bulls could move OPJ to move up in draft.

1. OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2

2. Three way
Chi - Harris & #2
Phi - OPJ
GS - Thybulle, #4, & #21

[drosereturn]

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

None.

#3 involving OPJ is nearly impossible to do because he makes nearly $30m and that requires taking back nearly $30m in other contracts.

That’s just because you either don’t like LaMelo as a prospect or you’re being unreasonable.

The Bulls already got lucky when they moved up to 4. Moving up for LaMelo now will cost the Bulls a lot less assets. This perfect situation where the Bulls can get him without giving up anything of value doesn’t exist. It’s Lauri, future 1st, or cap space. There is a price to move up that all teams have to pay.

Here are 2 possibilities where the Bulls could move OPJ to move up in draft.

1. OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2

2. Three way
Chi - Harris & #2
Phi - OPJ
GS - Thybulle, #4, & #21

OPJ for Wiggins is the only viable swap that doesnt take assets.
Cannot see Bulls doing other than Carter plus four for two.

[Dieselbound&Down]

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

I can never find the quote but I swear that all the way back in the Eighties Pat Riley said that the future of the NBA was positionless basketball, starting five 6' 8" guys who could run, dribble, score, and defend. I remember that argument when he made it and thought "Wow." Good call, Pat.

I mean, they won a title starting Magic at center against Daryl Dawkins once 40 years ago. The Bulls won multiple titles with 6'8" Rodman basically playing center next to basically four 6'6"-6'10" wings.

It's always been the future, there just hasn't been enough wing talent in the league to make it really happen on a widespread basis. It's finally starting to happen now, especially with bigs growing up idolizing Kobe/LeBron/Durant.

It's really no different from what's happening in soccer or hockey either. Analytics in every sport are showing that speed+skill+versatility are the killer attributes, not some big, low skill bruisers. Those guys are a seen as a waste of roster space in those sports now.

I think the concept has been around for some time, even back into the 80s. But I think there are 2 factors for why it is so much more prevalent now - (1) The defensive rules up to about 2000 gave an advantage to a good offensive post player and physical teams, and (2) as you pointed out, there just wasn't enough talent before to really pull it off. The talent in the 90s really watered down due to expansion. Around 2000 the defensive rules changed and, at the same time, Euro players really started to make an impact.

League depth is just much better now than it was 25 years ago. More skilled/athletic domestic players coming and a huge influx of talent from overseas. The table has been set for the game we see today.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Which option do you like best?
1. #4 & 2021 1st
2. #4 & Markkanen
3. #4 & OPJ

None.

#3 involving OPJ is nearly impossible to do because he makes nearly $30m and that requires taking back nearly $30m in other contracts.

If the Warriors are looking to trade down and clear up cap space we could take on Wiggins' contract and swap picks. I'd prefer not too though because the cap flexibility is better than being immediately tied down to a sizable contract.

The difference in value between the #1 and #4 picks in this draft is not that much, certainly a lot less than most years and a lot less than the difference in value that any other potential trade partner would present as part of a package.

Taking on a huge, bad contract to move up a few slots doesn't seem worth it to the Bulls. Lauri and Wendell are coming off their rookie deals soon and cap room will quickly get tight. Plus, given the disruption to TV revenue, the cap isn't going up much or at all for a few years and may even contract.

Stay away from taking on a bad contract just to move up a few spots.