Lets talk Zach Lavine

[Cabbage bulls]

LaVine should atleast command a guaranteed top-10 pick.

Like I said,

I don't think people here are gonna like what LaVine's value around the league really is.

career net negative who does nothing but rack up points on awful teams =/= great trade value

It's not his fault he has always been on garbage teams. Only generational talents like LeBron can will crappy teams to the playoffs. Any team would love to have a player of Zach's caliber on the squad.

[Leslie Forman]

It's not his fault he has always been on garbage teams. Only generational talents like LeBron can will crappy teams to the playoffs. Any team would love to have a player of Zach's caliber on the squad.

Would you trade the Bulls 2021 pick for Zach LaVine, starting shooting guard for the Detroit Pistons?

[Cabbage bulls]

It's not his fault he has always been on garbage teams. Only generational talents like LeBron can will crappy teams to the playoffs. Any team would love to have a player of Zach's caliber on the squad.

Would you trade the Bulls 2021 pick for Zach LaVine, starting shooting guard for the Detroit Pistons?

Zach LaVine won't be going to a rebuilding team like the Bulls.

[Stratmaster]

What we need to understand as a board and even as an organization is that 6’6 SG’s who have crazy athleticism and can hit the 3 will ALWAYS be in demand.

Zach was a talked about player in trade rumors last season, will be this season and likely next season if we are still trash and he’s on this team. On top of the fact that Zach is only 25, even if he was 30 he’d be in demand. With that said,there’s literally no rush to trade him until a deal comes along that we can’t pass up. As far as looking for a trade? That would be silly I’d prefer we wait sit back and catch a team in desperation trying to get over their “hump” of being a mediocre team and desperately wants to contend..

He’s the only player I’d advise against rushing into trading without a deal that knocks your socks off. He’s our best asset, the next best asset is our very own 2021 first round pick, and there’s a major drop off in “asset value” on this roster after that. So what I’m saying is if you trade Zach then you better get something damn good and you better get it right. We don’t have much to work with in the future outside of our own picks from our own season failures.

Amen

The idea that you need to keep shedding your best players because you might have to pay them will land this franchise in eternal hell.

Oh... and Merry Christmas everyone!

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[Stratmaster]

huh? he hasn't gotten better as a scorer since he left the bulls. per 100 poss.:'

29.4p on 57.7% ts (3.5% over league average) - last 3 seasons w/ bulls
28.2p on 57.8% ts (1.8% over) - since

zach lavine as a bull (excluding first season):

34.3p on 57.1% (0.9% over)

Ok. So in what way do those stats show Butler is as good a scorer as Lavine? That's 6 freaking points per 100 possessions difference.

because, uh...points isn't the be all and end all of being an effective scorer?

butler was 3.5 points higher than league average efficiency in his scoring years on the bulls. lavine has been a mere 0.9% higher. 3.5 is significantly better than 0.9. and 0.9 isn't particularly helpful to an offense. particularly if you're not on a bad team like the bulls. so while lavine is just fine as a #1 scorer when you're trying to drag a bad offense up to mediocrity, it's not an exciting prospect if you're trying to be a legitimate contender...particularly when scoring is his only desirable quality

you said that butler wasn't in even in the same league as lavine as a scorer. not only has he been in the same league...for 6 years now, but he's very comparable. depends on what your team needs

But my point is, before you start talking about trading a scorer like Lavine for a draft pick, be sure you understand what you are trading. Scorers like him are not a dime a dozen. You likely won't have another scorer like him for a long time.

true. but i don't judge players solely on their best quality. and it's very unwise to do so when you're talking about improving a bad team. it's not like the bulls are contenders who would lose a necessary scoring component if they deal lavine. the bulls need everything

I am not saying don't trade him. Or that he is untouchable. But you better get a haul back for him. If the biggest piece of that trade is a top 10 draft pick that is a crazy mistake.

re-signing zach lavine to a huge deal is the biggest mistake of all. and if the bulls aren't getting blown away by offers for lavine, it's because most other teams are wise to that

What is the most important skill in basketball?

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[Clocian]

Hmmm, so Zach is now a bad player that can only put stats up on a bad teams. The fanbase is something else I tell ya. It would be great to see Zach on a winning team with fans that actually appreciates what he brings to the table instead of praising the the "supporting cast" he's had to work with on the bulls, and other factors that played a part in how we've performed thus far.

[Stratmaster]

The Bulls alalready tore it down. You make trades that make your team better.

I will never understand the love for unknown prospects. It is why we are here in the first place.

Of the 4 big prospects the Bulls have gotten, exactly 1 has panned out. So let's trade him for next to nothing so we don't have to pay him. And draft more Lauri's and Wendell's. We will be a contender in no time. No time, meaning never.

Sooner or later, you have to start amassing successes and talents. Not getting rid of them for the next can't miss draft that turns out to be not quite as hyped.

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[dice]

What we need to understand as a board and even as an organization is that 6’6 SG’s who have crazy athleticism and can hit the 3 will ALWAYS be in demand.

Zach was a talked about player in trade rumors last season, will be this season and likely next season if we are still trash and he’s on this team. On top of the fact that Zach is only 25, even if he was 30 he’d be in demand. With that said,there’s literally no rush to trade him until a deal comes along that we can’t pass up. As far as looking for a trade? That would be silly I’d prefer we wait sit back and catch a team in desperation trying to get over their “hump” of being a mediocre team and desperately wants to contend..

He’s the only player I’d advise against rushing into trading without a deal that knocks your socks off. He’s our best asset, the next best asset is our very own 2021 first round pick, and there’s a major drop off in “asset value” on this roster after that. So what I’m saying is if you trade Zach then you better get something damn good and you better get it right. We don’t have much to work with in the future outside of our own picks from our own season failures.

Amen

The idea that you need to keep shedding your best players because you might have to pay them will land this franchise in eternal hell.

it's not paying your best players what they're worth that's the problem. it's OVERpaying them. and i guarantee that zach lavine will be overpaid on his next deal. let someone else do it

[dice]

Ok. So in what way do those stats show Butler is as good a scorer as Lavine? That's 6 freaking points per 100 possessions difference.

because, uh...points isn't the be all and end all of being an effective scorer?

butler was 3.5 points higher than league average efficiency in his scoring years on the bulls. lavine has been a mere 0.9% higher. 3.5 is significantly better than 0.9. and 0.9 isn't particularly helpful to an offense. particularly if you're not on a bad team like the bulls. so while lavine is just fine as a #1 scorer when you're trying to drag a bad offense up to mediocrity, it's not an exciting prospect if you're trying to be a legitimate contender...particularly when scoring is his only desirable quality

you said that butler wasn't in even in the same league as lavine as a scorer. not only has he been in the same league...for 6 years now, but he's very comparable. depends on what your team needs

But my point is, before you start talking about trading a scorer like Lavine for a draft pick, be sure you understand what you are trading. Scorers like him are not a dime a dozen. You likely won't have another scorer like him for a long time.

true. but i don't judge players solely on their best quality. and it's very unwise to do so when you're talking about improving a bad team. it's not like the bulls are contenders who would lose a necessary scoring component if they deal lavine. the bulls need everything

I am not saying don't trade him. Or that he is untouchable. But you better get a haul back for him. If the biggest piece of that trade is a top 10 draft pick that is a crazy mistake.

re-signing zach lavine to a huge deal is the biggest mistake of all. and if the bulls aren't getting blown away by offers for lavine, it's because most other teams are wise to that

What is the most important skill in basketball?

i'll answer one easy question with two more:

1) is there only one skill in basketball?
2) can a player be paid more than he is worth?

backing up the brinks truck for a largely one-dimensional player who isn't even elite at that one dimension is foolhardy. flat out

[Stratmaster]

huh? he hasn't gotten better as a scorer since he left the bulls. per 100 poss.:'

29.4p on 57.7% ts (3.5% over league average) - last 3 seasons w/ bulls
28.2p on 57.8% ts (1.8% over) - since

zach lavine as a bull (excluding first season):

34.3p on 57.1% (0.9% over)

Ok. So in what way do those stats show Butler is as good a scorer as Lavine? That's 6 freaking points per 100 possessions difference.

because, uh...points isn't the be all and end all of being an effective scorer?

butler was 3.5 points higher than league average efficiency in his scoring years on the bulls. lavine has been a mere 0.9% higher. 3.5 is significantly better than 0.9. and 0.9 isn't particularly helpful to an offense. particularly if you're not on a bad team like the bulls. so while lavine is just fine as a #1 scorer when you're trying to drag a bad offense up to mediocrity, it's not an exciting prospect if you're trying to be a legitimate contender...particularly when scoring is his only desirable quality

you said that butler wasn't in even in the same league as lavine as a scorer. not only has he been in the same league...for 6 years now, but he's very comparable. depends on what your team needs

But my point is, before you start talking about trading a scorer like Lavine for a draft pick, be sure you understand what you are trading. Scorers like him are not a dime a dozen. You likely won't have another scorer like him for a long time.

true. but i don't judge players solely on their best quality. and it's very unwise to do so when you're talking about improving a bad team. it's not like the bulls are contenders who would lose a necessary scoring component if they deal lavine. the bulls need everything

I am not saying don't trade him. Or that he is untouchable. But you better get a haul back for him. If the biggest piece of that trade is a top 10 draft pick that is a crazy mistake.

re-signing zach lavine to a huge deal is the biggest mistake of all. and if the bulls aren't getting blown away by offers for lavine, it's because most other teams are wise to that

BTW, I don't remember specifying Butler wasn't in the same league. I think I mentioned a couple names and said no one else is in the same league and didn't consider Butler.

If I specified Butler as not being in the same league, I misspoke. Or I was being dismissive, because I don't like Butler, and the reason Butler is no longer a Bull has nothing to do with his skills... a situation nothing like Zach Lavine's.

I disagree with your opinion on Lavine. As far as judging on their best quality, if that quality is man defense, or hustle, or grit, or rebounding, pre game pep talks.... no. I wouldn't either.

When the quality is elite scoring, at a level of 23 or more points per game on a regular basis, able to score at and from all levels you may want to give it some consideration.

I don't give Lavine away for anything less than a proven quality starter plus a first rounder. Throw someone else in to sweeten the deal if you must.



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[dice]

Hmmm, so Zach is now a bad player that can only put stats up on a bad teams.

where did you imagine that you read that?

It would be great to see Zach on a winning team with fans that actually appreciates what he brings to the table...

you're unlikely to ever see that if he's making a ton of money. and that's the problem

...instead of praising the the "supporting cast" he's had to work with on the bulls

now you're really in fantasy land if you think people are praising lavine's supporting cast

the fact that we're even talking about zach lavine HAVING a supporting cast is a huge problem. and i'm not talking about a co-number 1 situation. he needs to be part of someone ELSE's supporting cast. not a "robin" either

[Stratmaster]

Hmmm, so Zach is now a bad player that can only put stats up on a bad teams. The fanbase is something else I tell ya. It would be great to see Zach on a winning team with fans that actually appreciates what he brings to the table instead of praising the the "supporting cast" he's had to work with on the bulls, and other factors that played a part in how we've performed thus far.

Not gonna happen here. Being traded would be the best thing that ever happened to Lavine.

But unless the Bulls actually get 2 pieces, one of whom who can put up 20 plus a night consistently, it will be another 5 years of exactly what we have now.

Could you imagine this team next season without Lavine, adding 2 rooks neither of whom can score like Lavine, and Coby White becoming the Bulls big "threat".

Ugghh

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[PrimzyBulls81]

another trade Lavine thread!? Jeez..
You Bulls fans really dont appreciate Zach! He is best player on the team and AK already said we arent rebuilding anymore! So wtf is the reason again to best player away??? For more unknown prospects, for more unknown picks, for more unproven players???
Trade everyone else on roster except Zach, PWill and White.

[Stratmaster]

because, uh...points isn't the be all and end all of being an effective scorer?

butler was 3.5 points higher than league average efficiency in his scoring years on the bulls. lavine has been a mere 0.9% higher. 3.5 is significantly better than 0.9. and 0.9 isn't particularly helpful to an offense. particularly if you're not on a bad team like the bulls. so while lavine is just fine as a #1 scorer when you're trying to drag a bad offense up to mediocrity, it's not an exciting prospect if you're trying to be a legitimate contender...particularly when scoring is his only desirable quality

you said that butler wasn't in even in the same league as lavine as a scorer. not only has he been in the same league...for 6 years now, but he's very comparable. depends on what your team needs


true. but i don't judge players solely on their best quality. and it's very unwise to do so when you're talking about improving a bad team. it's not like the bulls are contenders who would lose a necessary scoring component if they deal lavine. the bulls need everything


re-signing zach lavine to a huge deal is the biggest mistake of all. and if the bulls aren't getting blown away by offers for lavine, it's because most other teams are wise to that

What is the most important skill in basketball?

i'll answer one easy question with two more:

1) is there only one skill in basketball?
2) can a player be paid more than he is worth?

backing up the brinks truck for a largely one-dimensional player who isn't even elite at that one dimension is foolhardy. flat out

Agree to disagree. Good luck without him next season.

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[Stratmaster]

What we need to understand as a board and even as an organization is that 6’6 SG’s who have crazy athleticism and can hit the 3 will ALWAYS be in demand.

Zach was a talked about player in trade rumors last season, will be this season and likely next season if we are still trash and he’s on this team. On top of the fact that Zach is only 25, even if he was 30 he’d be in demand. With that said,there’s literally no rush to trade him until a deal comes along that we can’t pass up. As far as looking for a trade? That would be silly I’d prefer we wait sit back and catch a team in desperation trying to get over their “hump” of being a mediocre team and desperately wants to contend..

He’s the only player I’d advise against rushing into trading without a deal that knocks your socks off. He’s our best asset, the next best asset is our very own 2021 first round pick, and there’s a major drop off in “asset value” on this roster after that. So what I’m saying is if you trade Zach then you better get something damn good and you better get it right. We don’t have much to work with in the future outside of our own picks from our own season failures.

Amen

The idea that you need to keep shedding your best players because you might have to pay them will land this franchise in eternal hell.

it's not paying your best players what they're worth that's the problem. it's OVERpaying them. and i guarantee that zach lavine will be overpaid on his next deal. let someone else do it

The majority in here said he was overpaid the last contract. It is now considered a value contract.

Lavine is just entering his prime.

Not to mention that when the rest of the league sees a guy sign a value contract betting on himself, works his ass off and succeeds, then gets given away so they don't have to pay him, it will be considered business as usual in Chicago.

This thread is just a reminder that the website "RealGM" isn't actually "Real GM'S".



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[dice]

What is the most important skill in basketball?

i'll answer one easy question with two more:

1) is there only one skill in basketball?
2) can a player be paid more than he is worth?

backing up the brinks truck for a largely one-dimensional player who isn't even elite at that one dimension is foolhardy. flat out

Agree to disagree. Good luck without him next season.

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team hasn't been any worse with him on the bench, so...good luck with him, good luck without him...six of one, half a dozen of another

not sure how anyone who's been following this team the past few years can think things would be much worse if zach lavine retired tomorrow. particularly coming off getting demolished at home by a mediocre hawks team to kick off the season. the house that jordan built has never been so desecrated

[Clocian]

Hmmm, so Zach is now a bad player that can only put stats up on a bad teams. The fanbase is something else I tell ya. It would be great to see Zach on a winning team with fans that actually appreciates what he brings to the table instead of praising the the "supporting cast" he's had to work with on the bulls, and other factors that played a part in how we've performed thus far.

Not gonna happen here. Being traded would be the best thing that ever happened to Lavine.

But unless the Bulls actually get 2 pieces, one of whom who can put up 20 plus a night consistently, it will be another 5 years of exactly what we have now.

Could you imagine this team next season without Lavine, adding 2 rooks neither of whom can score like Lavine, and Coby White becoming the Bulls big "threat".

Ugghh

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Classic case of you don't know what you got til it's gone. Ideally the team keeps Zach, Pat and Coby, but a lot of that imo depends on if coby can successfully be the 1 we need for this team. If so, there's no reason to trade Zach. Trade everyone else besides those I just mentioned and get some quality consistent players to back these guys up.

[Stratmaster]

:banghead: another trade Lavine thread!? Jeez..
You Bulls fans really dont appreciate Zach! He is best player on the team and AK already said we arent rebuilding anymore! So wtf is the reason again to best player away??? For more unknown prospects, for more unknown picks, for more unproven players???
Trade everyone else on roster except Zach, PWill and White.

Exactly. The rebuild has been underway. Now is the time to consolidate what good talent you have obtained, and move the guys on the margin.

Lauri and Carter would be where I start if the Bulls had to start today... which they don't...

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[dice]

Amen

The idea that you need to keep shedding your best players because you might have to pay them will land this franchise in eternal hell.

it's not paying your best players what they're worth that's the problem. it's OVERpaying them. and i guarantee that zach lavine will be overpaid on his next deal. let someone else do it

The majority in here said he was overpaid the last contract. It is now considered a value contract.

it is considered a value contract by those who don't understand what winning basketball is

Lavine is just entering his prime.

false. the typical player peaks statistically at around lavine's current age. typical exceptions are legit superstars. lavine did not notably improve last season, so at least presently it does not appear that he will be an exception

Not to mention that when the rest of the league sees a guy sign a value contract betting on himself, works his ass off and succeeds, then gets given away so they don't have to pay him, it will be considered business as usual in Chicago.

so your solution is to shoot ourselves in the foot, remain bad and then limp around leaving a trail of blood, waive our arms and say "hey guys, come play here. look what we did to ourselves to reward our hard working, low IQ loss leader!"

free agents ask themselves a number of questions when deciding where to sign (how much are they paying me for the next few years, how good is the team, will i get to showcase my game, how's the weather...). whether they've paid up to RETAIN players is pretty damn far down the list

This thread is just a reminder that the website "RealGM" isn't actually "Real GM'S".

i don't even know what that is supposed to mean

[dice]

:banghead: another trade Lavine thread!? Jeez..
You Bulls fans really dont appreciate Zach! He is best player on the team and AK already said we arent rebuilding anymore! So wtf is the reason again to best player away??? For more unknown prospects, for more unknown picks, for more unproven players???
Trade everyone else on roster except Zach, PWill and White.

Exactly. The rebuild has been underway. Now is the time to consolidate what good talent you have obtained, and move the guys on the margin.

Lauri and Carter would be where I start if the Bulls had to start today... which they don't...

you're not getting much for lavine, and you're getting even less for those two

nibbling 'round the edges making minor trades of existing players to upgrade lavine's supporting cast into a strong team would take decades