Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[Chi town]

It's a long season so there's plenty of time for him to turn it around, but let's say worse comes to worst, the way I look at it: if we end up having to let Giddey walk, it's really not that big of a deal. The initial asset we traded for him was Caruso, who probably was gonna walk anyway. Just don't make the situation worse by overpaying and holding on to a player you have no intention of playing and developing.

And if things really do get worse (i.e. team continues to lose), we're likely talking about keeping our pick which I'm obviously fine with.

He's a restricted FA; I hope they make him test the market and sign an offer sheet for us to match rather than extending/overpaying outright. But again, plenty of games to play and situations to monitor how he responds to adversity, they probably won't know what they're gonna do until the March/April.

Could of had two 1sts for Caruso

Another mistake by an inept front office

It’s certainly looking like that.

One first last draft and one this draft would have certainly helped us… oh wait. AK is making the pick.

[2weekswithpay]

It's early but the Bulls are 11.6 points worse when Giddey is on the court. The defense is 10.7 points worse with him on the court and the offense is more or less the same.

Why surround Giddey with better defenders if he isn't good enough on offense to make those lineups a viable option?

[Guru]

Giddey was more than fine for 9 games. He will be fine. It was a great trade even if he doesn't re-sign. We really do have the worst fans in sports. They just look for someone to hate constantly.

[Dan Z]

The actual rumors around possible Caruso trades (and we sure canvased the market) were:

Knicks picks 24 and 25 in the past draft (this was the least confirmed rumor)
Kings pick 13 in the last draft (seemed more or less confirmed)
Giddey (which we took)

Of these 3 deals, while technically the Knicks deal is two firsts, its two firsts that project into fringe rotation / out of the league players. The Kings pick in this draft also projected into a rotation player.

Dalton Knecht at $4M sounds pretty good right now.

Wouldn't mind Knecht either (or Carter whom has been hurt), but I don't know that either (I believe both older than Giddey) are more than role players. They'll have lower salary numbers though. Flip side, you don't know who'd we have taken, and you'd also have a fair chance at getting a non contributor.

These are the picks from 13-22:

Devin Carter
Kel'el Ware
Jared McCain
Dalton Knecht
Tristan Da Silva
Jaylon Tyson
Yves Missi
DaRon Holmes

The Bulls may have passed on guards because they already have Coby and Ayo, plus Zo was coming back. However, Giddey is a guard so who knows.

Out of that group of players I think they'd all be contributors on the Bulls (except for Devin Carter and DaRon Holmes because they're hurt. My guess is once they're healthy they'll contribute).

Ware hasn't played much, but had a good Summer League. He'd give the Bulls some much needed size.
Jared McCain is averaging 15 points per game and looking like ROY (I know, it's early).
Knecht's last two games were 37 points and 27. He's improving.
Tristan Da Silva is struggling, but will probably be a solid contributor once he improves.
Jaylon Tyson just had his first start: 16 points, 11 rebounds and 7 assists in a win.
Yves Missi has started 11 games for the Pelicans and looks like he'll be a decent center.

I'd rather have one of those players than Giddey because said player would be on a rookie deal and can be developed for the future. Giddey is a flawed player who will probably be over paid this off season (I know...it remains to be seen). If the Bulls keep him they'll have to figure out how to build with/around him. It's possible that he surprises me, but my preference is building towards the future instead of the now because the Bulls aren't ready to compete.

EDIT: I forgot Ja'Kobe Walter at 19. He hasn't done well, but might improve.

[jnrjr79]

I always felt like we lost the trade because we didn’t hold OKC to the fire and get them to let go of one of their 100 picks. I still feel that way. I don’t believe they would have walked away from the deal given how many picks they have.

OKC has a 100 picks because they're great at negotiating and value picks. They don't have a 100 picks because they frivolously add picks to trades just because they have them when they already know they have the winning bid. The only reason people think they would give up a pick is "because they have picks" but that's not a reason. They also could have said, nah, we'll trade for Mikal Bridges whom is a better player or looked at the market. The offer they made for Caruso, they knew it was better than what the Bulls were going to do elsewhere with what our strategy was.

For a minute, the deal looked pretty good because Giddey was playing well. Now there’s a chance we just lose the trade because AC is ultimately the better player. On the bright side, we might be able to sign Giddey to a pretty reasonable contract but at a center point you need to stop locking yourself into long-term deals with guys that almost no one else wants on their team.

Have a good amount of time on the Giddey decision left, but the problem is (and always has been) that unless Giddey becomes a guy who is worth a max deal or we sign him to a good deal next year then he improves a lot in the future, it's just paying market value for a guy, and that guy also has a weird fit with tons of other players.

I liked the trade at the time as far as a swing for the fences move, and faced with a similar situation, I would probably do it over again vs the alternatives, but it's already pretty clear to me its likely not going to work. I don't think the alternatives had as good a chance at high upside though, and it's worth noting that the guys we might have considered instead of Giddey are actually older than Giddey and proven less. You'd have longer/cheaper cost control, but the upside with those guys seems very low probability.

The bolded bit here is what has me leaning against extending Giddey, though obviously the actual salary number matters a lot.

It would be one thing if the Bulls already had a fairly established roster of long-term pieces who you knew were a good fit with Giddey. But they don't. So, are you going to sign Giddey to a 4-year deal, commit to him as the starting PG, and then accept that Giddey is going to drive a lot of your personnel decisions? Kinda seems like putting the cart before the horse.

[dougthonus]

The bolded bit here is what has me leaning against extending Giddey, though obviously the actual salary number matters a lot.

It would be one thing if the Bulls already had a fairly established roster of long-term pieces who you knew were a good fit with Giddey. But they don't. So, are you going to sign Giddey to a 4-year deal, commit to him as the starting PG, and then accept that Giddey is going to drive a lot of your personnel decisions? Kinda seems like putting the cart before the horse.

An excellent way of putting it. You're starting from zero, why do you want to tie a hand behind your back in terms of players you can utilize?

[League Circles]

IMO, there are 3 different players that if healthy and they replaced Giddey as a starter we would improve:

Ayo (duh)
Jalen Smith (sliding Patrick to the 3 spot)
Ball (duh)

In addition, I would prefer to see Matas start (sliding Patrick to the 3) over Giddey also.

The trade for Giddey was smart, but as expected, it's looking like it won't work out well. You don't build an offense around a guy who can't shoot and defends horribly, even if he's a great passer.

The reason I say the trade was smart is because Giddey was still more likely to be what we needed than two mid to late first round picks. Especially because those two picks would tie up salary for 3-4 years that hopefully now won't be after we let Giddey walk.

[greenl]

Giddey is the opposite of a 3&D player- which means he'll only ever be effective in a lineup tailor made to camouflage his very glaring weaknesses. If his playmaking upside was that substantial- you could maybe justify it. But, it's not. Bulls should move off of him- one way or another.

[Hangtime84]

Raptors could use a guy like this

[CROBulls]

It's early but the Bulls are 11.6 points worse when Giddey is on the court. The defense is 10.7 points worse with him on the court and the offense is more or less the same.

Why surround Giddey with better defenders if he isn't good enough on offense to make those lineups a viable option?

This tells me play Giddey more. If you are fan of this franchise and their future. From now on, I want billboards and game signs #FreeGiddey

[Stratmaster]

Giddey just turned 22. We have seen 16 games with an offense that is new to the team. His 3 point shooting has improved every season, and at least so far this season that trend is continuing with him at just under 36٪.

His defense has to be improved. No way around that.

If I had any confidence in the head coach and his staff developing players, my opinion would be that we need to see how he progresses this season before having a knee jerk reaction.

I don't have that confidence, so I have little hope he will be successful.

[Chi town]

Giddey is the opposite of a 3&D player- which means he'll only ever be effective in a lineup tailor made to camouflage his very glaring weaknesses. If his playmaking upside was that substantial- you could maybe justify it. But, it's not. Bulls should move off of him- one way or another.

We knew the defense was bad and we are a train wreck anyway.

The offense is the biggest issue. Giddey can’t score in the halfcourt. He’s only a threat in transition and secondary breaks when he has momentum down hill.

His 3 ball would have to take a big jump in volume and percentage to overcome his lack of creating and playmaking. His passing and rebounding isn’t good enough to cover for it.

When we lose Vuc or Zach we will see our offense look atrocious and stagnate because only Coby can create himself a shot.

[greenl]

It's early but the Bulls are 11.6 points worse when Giddey is on the court. The defense is 10.7 points worse with him on the court and the offense is more or less the same.

Why surround Giddey with better defenders if he isn't good enough on offense to make those lineups a viable option?

This tells me play Giddey more. If you are fan of this franchise and their future. From now on, I want billboards and game signs #FreeGiddey

Tank Commander at the ready!

[Red8911]

Just give Giddey more time, he was solid to start the season but now he’s lost his confidence lately.

Bulls traded for him knowing that he’s not a great shooter or defender. That wasnt a surprise but I guess they are hoping he ll improve.

If he doesn’t I find it hard to believe the bulls re sign him unless he’s bench level money cheap. I’m pretty sure they’ll make a decision by the trade deadline, either they trade him to get something out of him or keep him.

[HomoSapien]

I always felt like we lost the trade because we didn’t hold OKC to the fire and get them to let go of one of their 100 picks. I still feel that way. I don’t believe they would have walked away from the deal given how many picks they have.

OKC has a 100 picks because they're great at negotiating and value picks. They don't have a 100 picks because they frivolously add picks to trades just because they have them when they already know they have the winning bid. The only reason people think they would give up a pick is "because they have picks" but that's not a reason. They also could have said, nah, we'll trade for Mikal Bridges whom is a better player or looked at the market. The offer they made for Caruso, they knew it was better than what the Bulls were going to do elsewhere with what our strategy was.

Wait! We’ve had this discussion so many times and during our last one you had changed your opinion to align with mine and I was so happy. And now you’re going to take that away from me???

Look, ultimately we’ll never know. What we do know is that the Bulls overwhelmingly tend to lose their trades. They either trade too much or don’t get enough. Logistically, OKC cannot really afford to keep all their picks. They are going to have to start trading them, unless they go crazy on draft and stash. For that reason, I think we could have called their bluff. At the time of the trade, Caruso was the better regarded player and OKC was the one that was trying to shift to contender status.

[dougthonus]

I always felt like we lost the trade because we didn’t hold OKC to the fire and get them to let go of one of their 100 picks. I still feel that way. I don’t believe they would have walked away from the deal given how many picks they have.

OKC has a 100 picks because they're great at negotiating and value picks. They don't have a 100 picks because they frivolously add picks to trades just because they have them when they already know they have the winning bid. The only reason people think they would give up a pick is "because they have picks" but that's not a reason. They also could have said, nah, we'll trade for Mikal Bridges whom is a better player or looked at the market. The offer they made for Caruso, they knew it was better than what the Bulls were going to do elsewhere with what our strategy was.

Wait! We’ve had this discussion so many times and during our last one you had changed your opinion to align with mine and I was so happy. And now you’re going to take that away from me???

Look, ultimately we’ll never know. What we do know is that the Bulls overwhelmingly tend to lose their trades. They either trade too much or don’t get enough. Logistically, OKC cannot really afford to keep all their picks. They are going to have to start trading them, unless they go crazy on draft and stash. For that reason, I think we could have called their bluff. At the time of the trade, Caruso was the better regarded player and OKC was the one that was trying to shift to contender status.

Let me rephrase, I think they could have maybe held out for a 2nd rounder. If you are really upset over not getting a 2nd rounder, that doesn't seem to be all that meaningful to me. Usually when I hear we should have gotten picks too, I think 1st rounders, because I don't know why anyone is overly worried about 2nd rounders.

[Jcool0]

18 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 blocks. Team best +19

[Chi town]

18 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 blocks. Team best +19

He played down hill and was much more active. His D was better. More contests. Much better awareness and anticipation.

His D looks much better next to Smith Terry and Buz too.

[DASMACKDOWN]

If you had to choose only one...

Would you rather re-sign Giddey or re-sign Lonzo?

[Chi town]

If you had to choose only one...

Would you rather re-sign Giddey or re-sign Lonzo?

Neither. Zo is a glass house.

I think Giddey will improve but not enough to be a piece you build with.

I’ve been most disappointed with his motor and how much he defers. He rarely attacks and can only get his own shot in transition when he has a head of steam going down hill.

Sounds weird but he can play like Pat where he floats around. We have also seen flashes of aggression and even athleticism but that would be the norm for him to be a trouble double threat and every night and out constant pressure on the defense.