Would you offer Ayo an extension?

[kodo]

Do you know when you want guy like Ayo on roster? When you set like OKC. Do you know when you dont need guy like Ayo? When you set like Chicago Bulls. Bulls actually need high end talent, there is a way to get that high end talent. Many users on this board dont wanna hear it, but that's their problem. But even that it's not possible with Bulls until Bulls are literally sold and Reinsdorf family doesnt own a cent in a franchise.

So let's forget that story. I still prefer keeping Ayo over Coby, just due salary demands. Because Ayo is worth 6-9M per year and that's gonna be his price at FA market, and with Coby I feel he will rather play for 15-20M for another team when Bulls dont offer him 30M+. Just a feeling.

Doesn't thinking about OKC put the lie to Ayo being "worth" a significant contract though?

On OKC, Ayo wouldn't play a single minute. Not 1. They want guys who can shoot. Further, OKC understands that as they have to lock in to a core set of guys, they can't afford to pay guys like Ayo to sit on the bench. They cycle through guys.

You can see this with how they've got Caruso, but then they've got Cason Wallace waiting in the wings for Caruso to decline, and they've got AJ Mitchell waiting in the wings to replace Wallace if they need to. Then they've got Joe and Wiggins, who are both high level shooters.

OKC doesn't think they need a guy like Ayo on their roster at all. And definitely not tied to a longer term, relatively pricy deal.

The closest to Ayo on OKC is Aaron Wiggins & Lu Dort, and OKC invested in both players when they were bad shooters.
Wiggins @23: 30% 3P
Lu Dort @23: 32% 3P

Ayo did shoot 40% from 3 at age 24, so it's really about why he took such a big drop last season. Maybe the shoulder that required surgery?

[drosestruts]

I wonder if we'll get bored enough to discuss extensions for Huerter, Collins, or Terry?

[MikeDC]

Do you know when you want guy like Ayo on roster? When you set like OKC. Do you know when you dont need guy like Ayo? When you set like Chicago Bulls. Bulls actually need high end talent, there is a way to get that high end talent. Many users on this board dont wanna hear it, but that's their problem. But even that it's not possible with Bulls until Bulls are literally sold and Reinsdorf family doesnt own a cent in a franchise.

So let's forget that story. I still prefer keeping Ayo over Coby, just due salary demands. Because Ayo is worth 6-9M per year and that's gonna be his price at FA market, and with Coby I feel he will rather play for 15-20M for another team when Bulls dont offer him 30M+. Just a feeling.

Doesn't thinking about OKC put the lie to Ayo being "worth" a significant contract though?

On OKC, Ayo wouldn't play a single minute. Not 1. They want guys who can shoot. Further, OKC understands that as they have to lock in to a core set of guys, they can't afford to pay guys like Ayo to sit on the bench. They cycle through guys.

You can see this with how they've got Caruso, but then they've got Cason Wallace waiting in the wings for Caruso to decline, and they've got AJ Mitchell waiting in the wings to replace Wallace if they need to. Then they've got Joe and Wiggins, who are both high level shooters.

OKC doesn't think they need a guy like Ayo on their roster at all. And definitely not tied to a longer term, relatively pricy deal.

The closest to Ayo on OKC is Aaron Wiggins & Lu Dort, and OKC invested in both players when they were bad shooters.
Wiggins @23: 30% 3P
Lu Dort @23: 32% 3P

Ayo did shoot 40% from 3 at age 24, so it's really about why he took such a big drop last season. Maybe the shoulder that required surgery?

Man, I just don't think that tells the story very accurately.

• Their "investment" in Wiggins was a minimum contract after converting him from a 2 way. He's shown a lot more steady progress than Ayo up to his second contract last summer.
• I just don't think Dort is comparable for the same reason's I wouldn't compare Ayo to Caruso. Dort also shoots a much higher volume.
• But Ayo shot 31% the year before he shot 40% and 33% the year after. All four of his years were pretty low volume. He was also wildly variant in college.

Ayo last year shot 3s at the same rate as Giddey. In the context of Giddey, that was progress, and we all know that the formula for whatever success they're going to have is surrounding him with guys who can shoot (like Coby, Heurter, Matas, Zach, and Vuc). Even Jalen Smith and Pat are more confident shooters than Ayo. Basically, you can't have him out there as a "shooter" with Giddey. Because Ayo is not a shooter.

This, I think, is why they went out and got Okoro. Who is also deathly afraid of taking anything but a wide open three, but still shoots them more frequently than Ayo did.

I know it seems like I'm piling on the guy, which is unfortunate because I like him, but ball don't lie.

[League Circles]

I also really like Ayo. I love players without big flaws and he's definitely a smart player. Not that skilled though IMO, and too redundant on this roster in our situation.

[kodo]

• Their "investment" in Wiggins was a minimum contract after converting him from a 2 way. He's shown a lot more steady progress than Ayo up to his second contract last summer.
• I just don't think Dort is comparable for the same reason's I wouldn't compare Ayo to Caruso. Dort also shoots a much higher volume.
• But Ayo shot 31% the year before he shot 40% and 33% the year after. All four of his years were pretty low volume. He was also wildly variant in college.

Ayo last year shot 3s at the same rate as Giddey. In the context of Giddey, that was progress, and we all know that the formula for whatever success they're going to have is surrounding him with guys who can shoot (like Coby, Heurter, Matas, Zach, and Vuc). Even Jalen Smith and Pat are more confident shooters than Ayo. Basically, you can't have him out there as a "shooter" with Giddey. Because Ayo is not a shooter.

This, I think, is why they went out and got Okoro. Who is also deathly afraid of taking anything but a wide open three, but still shoots them more frequently than Ayo did.

I know it seems like I'm piling on the guy, which is unfortunate because I like him, but ball don't lie.

If you think these players are wildly different in 3P volume that's fine, but it's pretty minor to me. At age 24 the 4 players produced:
Lu Dort: 2.5 threes per 36min
Dosunmu: 1.9 threes per 36min
Okoro: 1.9 threes per 36min
Wiggins: 1.3 threes per 36min

To me these are all defensive/hustle guards who can give you a couple of 3s per game if given full starter minutes.
Dort is definitely a bit better than the other 3 on 3s but he's also expected to get $25M on his next contract vs the other 3 who are making $7M-$11M.

[WesPeace]

Ayo is versatile hometown player, he is energetic hustler who plays with heart! You re-sign kids like that, you dont let them go.. you need some homeblood and roots

[DASMACKDOWN]

I don't know why people are so desperate to move Ayo?

Do you think anyone will pay him more than 4/50 mil? That is basically the common contract for players like him around the league. Bulls can easily afford it.

For reference that is what Atlanta paid Nickeil Alexander-Walker to be their bench guy.

[pipfan]

Ayo's my favorite current Bull-but I would deal him if we got a good offer. If he signs a team-friendly deal, we should keep him

[sco]

Ayo's my favorite current Bull-but I would deal him if we got a good offer. If he signs a team-friendly deal, we should keep him

Yeah, I get why folks are Ayo fans. He's a good dude, local kid, plays hard. I'm rooting for him too. I was 100% on the Ayo train as a rookie, and then he's really fizzled defensively...not sure if it was injuries or bulking up/slowing down or something else. If he could regain his defensive mojo, I really liked his end-to-end finishing ability coupled with a 3pt shot (when he had one).

Last season, I really became a Jones fan who had that defensive ability that Ayo had as a rookie, coupled with being a very good finisher in transition. Jones, IMO, is a better playmaker as well (but isn't much of a 3pt threat).

[Jello Biafra]

Since I couldn't get CHSN for the majority of last season I had to watch other teams broadcasts of Bulls games on the stream sites and almost uniformly, the other teams broadcasters considered Ayo the best player on the Bulls. Big contrast to this board.

[Infinity2152]

Ayo's my favorite current Bull-but I would deal him if we got a good offer. If he signs a team-friendly deal, we should keep him

Where I would stand. Ayo on a team friendly deal is almost a no-brainer. We'll only have like 6 players this summer, Huerter will likely be gone, and Ayo slots in just fine at backup SG and can be second PG when inevitably one of Giddey or Tre Jones is injured. Familiar with the team, the players, good guy, hustles, two-way, and still relatively young. He hasn't made a lot in his career, could be hard to turn down 3 yr/$30-$36 mill guaranteed early in the season. Coby COULD be gone too.

Our guard glut is over in the summer. Who knows if Okoro even lasts, or if he plays well for us? Wouldn't worry at all about paying Ayo $10-$12 mill because we have Jones, Okoro, and Williams. Jones and Okoro make less than $20 mill put together and I'm not making any decisions based on Pat Will at this point.

Team friendly deal means it's pretty much automatically better than an equivalent free agent, right? Or equivalent player you have to give up assets to acquire. Healthy Ayo locked up on team friendly deal would probably be a great trade asset this summer, as well. I'd offer Huerter a similar extension, and whoever bites first gets the deal.

[Indomitable]

Ayo's eligible for an extension right now, and given how boring this off-season is, it's kind of surprising we haven't talked about it.

He could get up to 4/88 (MLE+40% with 8% raises).

Would you offer this deal to Ayo? something lower?

Unlike Giddey whom probably has something like 100M in total earnings already between his endorsements, Ayo's not ever had a monster contract yet. If I were him and I got this 4/88 deal, I'd take it, so there is some range where both sides could come to a deal now. This doesn't mean I'd offer the maximum extension, but that an agreement should be able to be reached.

If you're the Bulls, this isn't without risk. You have a crowded roster at guard already, and Ayo still projects as a backup with Okoro and Tre Jones already on two year deals at backup level prices. A year ago, Ayo looked like he would be too expensive to lock into an extension when he shot over 40% from three and averaged 15 points per 36 with good defense. He regressed on shooting last year, and no longer looks like he's on a clear upwards trajectory (ie has stabilized).

I'd probably be willing to gamble on Ayo, because I think he play multiple positions well and fit next to more or less any players in the league. I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard more about him in extension talk, but likely the challenge in the short term is that any number the Bulls give him becomes an anchor in the Giddey negotiation, so they're likely to wait until after that is concluded before engaging.

20 per year for four years.

[League Circles]

I don't know why people are so desperate to move Ayo?

Do you think anyone will pay him more than 4/50 mil? That is basically the common contract for players like him around the league. Bulls can easily afford it.

For reference that is what Atlanta paid Nickeil Alexander-Walker to be their bench guy.

Ayo is arguably projecting to be the worst rotation player on a mediocre quality team. Now that's not an insult because I think we're pretty deep, but we need a lot omore certainty on a long term high quality core before we start giving out long term deals to relatively low upside players that are going to be near the bottom of our rotation.

Ayo, Patrick, Okoro and Huerter are all really in a competition either directly or indirectly. Patrick and Okoro probably have the edge due to defensive ability and more importantly contract status. Only of Ayo clearly separates himself from that group in a big way should we look to extend him.

I like him so not at all desperate to move him, but I think it's unlikely and probably unwise to keep him long term, so I'd rather try to get something of value for him now. But unless it's a package deal for a difference maker, I think we should wait until the trade deadline to see what we have.

[jnrjr79]

I don't know why people are so desperate to move Ayo?

Do you think anyone will pay him more than 4/50 mil? That is basically the common contract for players like him around the league. Bulls can easily afford it.

For reference that is what Atlanta paid Nickeil Alexander-Walker to be their bench guy.

Ayo is arguably projecting to be the worst rotation player on a mediocre quality team. Now that's not an insult because I think we're pretty deep, but we need a lot omore certainty on a long term high quality core before we start giving out long term deals to relatively low upside players that are going to be near the bottom of our rotation.

Ayo, Patrick, Okoro and Huerter are all really in a competition either directly or indirectly. Patrick and Okoro probably have the edge due to defensive ability and more importantly contract status. Only of Ayo clearly separates himself from that group in a big way should we look to extend him.

I like him so not at all desperate to move him, but I think it's unlikely and probably unwise to keep him long term, so I'd rather try to get something of value for him now. But unless it's a package deal for a difference maker, I think we should wait until the trade deadline to see what we have.

I don't really know what Ayo projects to be and more or less I don't care. I think we're going to find out pretty quickly whether last year's sub-par performance was because he was playing with a bum shoulder or whether he's just generally regressed. And that'll make the decision about whether to keep him pretty straightforward, IMO. If it was a health thing last year, then he'll be a lot better than "worst rotation player on a mediocre team." If it wasn't, well, that description may be apt.

[League Circles]

I don't know why people are so desperate to move Ayo?

Do you think anyone will pay him more than 4/50 mil? That is basically the common contract for players like him around the league. Bulls can easily afford it.

For reference that is what Atlanta paid Nickeil Alexander-Walker to be their bench guy.

Ayo is arguably projecting to be the worst rotation player on a mediocre quality team. Now that's not an insult because I think we're pretty deep, but we need a lot omore certainty on a long term high quality core before we start giving out long term deals to relatively low upside players that are going to be near the bottom of our rotation.

Ayo, Patrick, Okoro and Huerter are all really in a competition either directly or indirectly. Patrick and Okoro probably have the edge due to defensive ability and more importantly contract status. Only of Ayo clearly separates himself from that group in a big way should we look to extend him.

I like him so not at all desperate to move him, but I think it's unlikely and probably unwise to keep him long term, so I'd rather try to get something of value for him now. But unless it's a package deal for a difference maker, I think we should wait until the trade deadline to see what we have.

I don't really know what Ayo projects to be and more or less I don't care. I think we're going to find out pretty quickly whether last year's sub-par performance was because he was playing with a bum shoulder or whether he's just generally regressed. And that'll make the decision about whether to keep him pretty straightforward, IMO. If it was a health thing last year, then he'll be a lot better than "worst rotation player on a mediocre team." If it wasn't, well, that description may be apt.

I disagree. Ayo could play pretty well and still not be advisable to keep. Depends heavily on how we look as a team and how those other guys look. He's really going to need to look significantly better than at least Okoro and probably Patrick to justify keeping, because they're already under contract. IMO these guys all project as better in the rotation:

Matas
Giddey
Coby
Jones

In addition to those guys, at least two centers and Essengue, while not in any direct competition with Ayo, will be ahead of him in the rotation most likely for positional and/or long term development reasons (Essengue). So IMO that's 7 guys that Ayo is unlikely to pass in the rotation. So IMO he's in the conversation of 8th and lower in the rotation with these guys:

Patrick - not as good as Ayo at the moment at least on offense (where Ayo isn't good either) but has more defensive upside and flexibility.

Huerter - more offensive ability, but I lean towards Ayo over him

Okoro - I think Ayo will and should start behind him in the rotation. We just traded a guy we clearly valued for him and we have longer to evaluate him under contract.

The only things up for debate really IMO are who is going to back up Giddey and who will get the minutes at the 2 spot.

The backup 4 will be either Essengue or Patrick.

The backup 1 will be Jones.

Okoro will definitely be in the rotation and probably starting.

It's really Ayo vs Huerter to play the rest of the minutes at the 2 spot unless we play more than a 10 man rotation or Essengue gets zero minutes, which would then move Patrick to the backup 4, leaving Huerter as the backup 3 and Ayo/Okoro at the 2.

I mean if people want to say Ayo is better than Vuc I won't argue, but it's apples and oranges. Ayo is better than the non rotation guys too like Terry, Carter and Phillips. I personally would have him as 10th and bench Huerter, but Huerter's shooting might outweigh Ayo's all around game.

[jnrjr79]

Ayo is arguably projecting to be the worst rotation player on a mediocre quality team. Now that's not an insult because I think we're pretty deep, but we need a lot omore certainty on a long term high quality core before we start giving out long term deals to relatively low upside players that are going to be near the bottom of our rotation.

Ayo, Patrick, Okoro and Huerter are all really in a competition either directly or indirectly. Patrick and Okoro probably have the edge due to defensive ability and more importantly contract status. Only of Ayo clearly separates himself from that group in a big way should we look to extend him.

I like him so not at all desperate to move him, but I think it's unlikely and probably unwise to keep him long term, so I'd rather try to get something of value for him now. But unless it's a package deal for a difference maker, I think we should wait until the trade deadline to see what we have.

I don't really know what Ayo projects to be and more or less I don't care. I think we're going to find out pretty quickly whether last year's sub-par performance was because he was playing with a bum shoulder or whether he's just generally regressed. And that'll make the decision about whether to keep him pretty straightforward, IMO. If it was a health thing last year, then he'll be a lot better than "worst rotation player on a mediocre team." If it wasn't, well, that description may be apt.

I disagree. Ayo could play pretty well and still not be advisable to keep. Depends heavily on how we look as a team and how those other guys look. He's really going to need to look significantly better than at least Okoro and probably Patrick to justify keeping, because they're already under contract. IMO these guys all project as better in the rotation:

Matas
Giddey
Coby
Jones

In addition to those guys, at least two centers and Essengue, while not in any direct competition with Ayo, will be ahead of him in the rotation most likely for positional and/or long term development reasons (Essengue). So IMO that's 7 guys that Ayo is unlikely to pass in the rotation. So IMO he's in the conversation of 8th and lower in the rotation with these guys:

Patrick - not as good as Ayo at the moment at least on offense (where Ayo isn't good either) but has more defensive upside and flexibility.

Huerter - more offensive ability, but I lean towards Ayo over him

Okoro - I think Ayo will and should start behind him in the rotation. We just traded a guy we clearly valued for him and we have longer to evaluate him under contract.

The only things up for debate really IMO are who is going to back up Giddey and who will get the minutes at the 2 spot.

The backup 4 will be either Essengue or Patrick.

The backup 1 will be Jones.

Okoro will definitely be in the rotation and probably starting.

It's really Ayo vs Huerter to play the rest of the minutes at the 2 spot unless we play more than a 10 man rotation or Essengue gets zero minutes, which would then move Patrick to the backup 4, leaving Huerter as the backup 3 and Ayo/Okoro at the 2.

I mean if people want to say Ayo is better than Vuc I won't argue, but it's apples and oranges. Ayo is better than the non rotation guys too like Terry, Carter and Phillips. I personally would have him as 10th and bench Huerter, but Huerter's shooting might outweigh Ayo's all around game.

Well, what to think about any of this scenario (e.g. if Ayo is good, should the Bulls keep him) depends on his number.

Patrick Williams is effectively irrelevant to the discussion. He is not of positional relevance to Ayo and is just dead salary until proven otherwise. The Bulls have to deal with him re: Ayo no more than any other player salary.

Okoro - I think he may earn the starting job, but I also think people are way too far out over their skis on him. He has to prove it, and he's probably always going to be less offensively productive than Peak Ayo, if Ayo ever gets back there.

Jones will be around, but also seems like the classic "you signed this guy to a good deal to be able to trade him" kind of dude. Much like the Lonzo contract.

Huerter is expiring and also irrelevant.

I think the over-arching thing here is the Bulls have a ton of expiring salary that's not likely to be around past the deadline or past next season, so you're not going to be making Ayo predictions based on today's roster construction. You'll have to factor who is in and who is out at the deadline and during the offseason.

[Indomitable]

Since I couldn't get CHSN for the majority of last season I had to watch other teams broadcasts of Bulls games on the stream sites and almost uniformly, the other teams broadcasters considered Ayo the best player on the Bulls. Big contrast to this board.

Most people do not appreciate things until it is to late.

[League Circles]

I don't really know what Ayo projects to be and more or less I don't care. I think we're going to find out pretty quickly whether last year's sub-par performance was because he was playing with a bum shoulder or whether he's just generally regressed. And that'll make the decision about whether to keep him pretty straightforward, IMO. If it was a health thing last year, then he'll be a lot better than "worst rotation player on a mediocre team." If it wasn't, well, that description may be apt.

I disagree. Ayo could play pretty well and still not be advisable to keep. Depends heavily on how we look as a team and how those other guys look. He's really going to need to look significantly better than at least Okoro and probably Patrick to justify keeping, because they're already under contract. IMO these guys all project as better in the rotation:

Matas
Giddey
Coby
Jones

In addition to those guys, at least two centers and Essengue, while not in any direct competition with Ayo, will be ahead of him in the rotation most likely for positional and/or long term development reasons (Essengue). So IMO that's 7 guys that Ayo is unlikely to pass in the rotation. So IMO he's in the conversation of 8th and lower in the rotation with these guys:

Patrick - not as good as Ayo at the moment at least on offense (where Ayo isn't good either) but has more defensive upside and flexibility.

Huerter - more offensive ability, but I lean towards Ayo over him

Okoro - I think Ayo will and should start behind him in the rotation. We just traded a guy we clearly valued for him and we have longer to evaluate him under contract.

The only things up for debate really IMO are who is going to back up Giddey and who will get the minutes at the 2 spot.

The backup 4 will be either Essengue or Patrick.

The backup 1 will be Jones.

Okoro will definitely be in the rotation and probably starting.

It's really Ayo vs Huerter to play the rest of the minutes at the 2 spot unless we play more than a 10 man rotation or Essengue gets zero minutes, which would then move Patrick to the backup 4, leaving Huerter as the backup 3 and Ayo/Okoro at the 2.

I mean if people want to say Ayo is better than Vuc I won't argue, but it's apples and oranges. Ayo is better than the non rotation guys too like Terry, Carter and Phillips. I personally would have him as 10th and bench Huerter, but Huerter's shooting might outweigh Ayo's all around game.

Well, what to think about any of this scenario (e.g. if Ayo is good, should the Bulls keep him) depends on his number.

Patrick Williams is effectively irrelevant to the discussion. He is not of positional relevance to Ayo and is just dead salary until proven otherwise. The Bulls have to deal with him re: Ayo no more than any other player salary.

Okoro - I think he may earn the starting job, but I also think people are way too far out over their skis on him. He has to prove it, and he's probably always going to be less offensively productive than Peak Ayo, if Ayo ever gets back there.

Jones will be around, but also seems like the classic "you signed this guy to a good deal to be able to trade him" kind of dude. Much like the Lonzo contract.

Huerter is expiring and also irrelevant.

I think the over-arching thing here is the Bulls have a ton of expiring salary that's not likely to be around past the deadline or past next season, so you're not going to be making Ayo predictions based on today's roster construction. You'll have to factor who is in and who is out at the deadline and during the offseason.

To me, unless Ayo is looking like "the answer" as a long term 5th starter, I wouldn't really re-sign him to any long term deal. I don't want to spend cap space on bench role players for the foreseeable future. Especially with Patrick and Jones already in that space.

I see all 4 of Okoro, Ayo, Patrick and Huerter as big question marks roughly competing for the same role (5th starter wing defender). If I were to guess right now, I'd give the edge to Okoro, then probably Ayo and Patrick roughly equal, then Huerter as a pretty distant 4th cause I can't imagine him working defensively with Giddey and Coby.

I like Ayo a lot but also think he's very replaceable and a luxury we can't afford due to opportunity cost.

[dougthonus]

Ayo is arguably projecting to be the worst rotation player on a mediocre quality team. Now that's not an insult because I think we're pretty deep, but we need a lot omore certainty on a long term high quality core before we start giving out long term deals to relatively low upside players that are going to be near the bottom of our rotation.

I think there is a wide variance in the opinion of Ayo. The only people I'm 98% sure are better than Ayo in the upcoming season (barring injuries) are Giddey and Coby. I think a lot of the problem is I think looking at Ayo's effort and theoretical capabilities make me feel like he's a lot better than the practical output he has given us, but I'm not sure if that is really justifiable. I could also see him being like our 12th best guy too, so I'm not locked in on him necessarily being great, but I just think there is a lot of variance there.

[Infinity2152]

What type of extension would you all expect him to get? Let's assume team friendly, close to current, maybe 3 yrs/$24-$30 mill, team option third year? The amount he signs at makes a huge difference to me. Think we shouldn't focus on fit and need instead of assets. We have like 6 players under contract next summer. Ayo at a good price is a solid player, hometown guy and good trade asset. At Tre Jones money, he's worth more than just that cap space as an asset.

Our 2026 roster now is Giddey, Jones, Okoro, Williams, Matas, Noa, Phillips, Smith. Ayo might outplay most of those guys this year. Even if we re-sign Coby, Ayo at $8-$10 mill is a great deal at back up SG and PG replacement. You can't ask for much more at that price, a solid two-way bench player who can give you solid minutes.

At $12-$15 mill per year, this is a different conversation. Good season and a lot of teams with money, he could be looking at that or more this summer. The Bulls could be the team paying it, with no players and a ton of cash.