OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[dougthonus]

She is saying that a vaccinated person can still transmit the disease. It WILL absolutely prevent you from getting it, at least up to around 93% effectiveness- studies have shown this. I don't know how someone with a law degree can misread what she is saying here. It's plain as day that she is encouraging people to get vaxed, that getting vaxed will help prevent you from getting seriously ill if you should have a breakthrough case, but that you can still transmit the virus to others even though you are vaxed (although I believe studies have shown that you are less likely to than a person who is unvaxed).

It's a semantics thing.

It doesn't stop you from transmitting it when you are infected, however, it is obvious that removing somewhere between 50-90% of infections as well as shortening the ones that do happen has an absolutely massive affect on transmission overall.

This is blatantly obvious to anyone whom cares to be intellectually honest about the discussion.

[Stratmaster]

What a bunch of nonsense. No matter how many paragraphs of voodoo you type a horse de-wormer and hydroxychloroquine (a lupus drug) have been proven many times by actual science to not be effective against covid.

**Your use of term "horse de-wormer", part of the smear campaign against Ivermectin kind of says a lot about your mind set. From where I sit that campaign seemed to be directed toward low IQ individuals (the predominant strain in modern America.) And it worked on you apparently. Enough said.


If you want to not get the virus, get a vaccine.

**Well the Director of the CDC says the vaccines will not stop you from getting the Virus nor will it prevent you from spreading the virus. I guess you missed that interview. It was on CNN. Your side's "go-to" place for the REAL NEWS.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html?jwsource=cl

If you want to treat the virus you already have, get Merck's new pill or Remdesivir.

**Merck's new pill has not yet been approved. They will fast track it. But approval is still months away at best. So currently unavailable to anyone. And Remdesivir is overrated. One Doctor in one of my hospitals has put this comment in at least 2 profiles that I have had to look over; "Patient refused Remdesevir, which is just as well as the data does not support it's efficacy." There have been cases of liver toxicity, renal toxicity, and cardio-toxicity with use of Remdesevir. Maybe it's worth a shot for a critical patient. But I'm not seeing any miracle results from it's use in the 3 hospitals I cover. Toxilizumab shows some efficacy against cytokine storm. And the plasma infusions seem to help as well. But I would not want my life depending on Remdesevir..

Why do you trust nonsense information over doctors, people who take oaths and go to school for many years to help you?


**I actually did go to school for many years, with degrees in Pharmacy and later in Law, both from the University of Illinois. And I passed 2 different Bar exams on the first try, the second one after less than a week of prep. I don't relish having to run counter to 95% of the posters on this forum. But I have the courage of my convictions. My education, my extensive reading, my observations as I oversee drug therapy in the hospitals I cover, all lead me to believe what I believe. Being unpopular here is not going to alter that. I don't need anyone's approval. The older you get the less you give a **** what other people think about you. It's liberating.

The 2 studies you cited are both over 6 months old. Here is just a little of the news on Ivermectin since then:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

https://www.localmemphis.com/article/news/health/ivermectin-two-other-drugs-being-tested-clinical-trial-tennessee/522-1658ffc7-bf12-4587-9b55-b841c514dedc

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fringe-doctors-groups-promote-ivermectin-for-covid-despite-a-lack-of-evidence/

So to summarize, the initial studies ranged from flawed to forged. There is a new study about to be done in an attempt to put the question to bed.

I hope it turns out Ivermectin works great. We need all the tools we can find in our toolbox.

But it hasn't been proven to work yet, and in fact seems to be tending toward the opposite. And 90% of people can avoid ever having to worry about using it by getting a simple, proven, vaccine.

One would have to be obtuse not to get the vax, wouldn't you agree?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[waffle]

from the FB whisteblower:

The key problem, Haugen argued, is that Facebook’s business is built around driving as much engagement as possible from the social network’s billions of users, and data shows that social media users engage more with inflammatory content.

It ain't about the message, it's about the revenue. And ideas on the edge, heck, over the cliff, are more profitable

[micromonkey]

The problem is you can try and pinpoint flaws with a lot of the current recommendations with any small spike and say--oh well its all "useless" not seeing the forest for the trees.

We already have data for what happens when you don't do any social distancing or masks--Sweden vs the rest of Scandanavia.
Even a crude mask study in bangladesh
We can easily compare countries on vaccination rates.
We have data on millions in unvaccinated vs vaccinated, hospitalization/death rates, in several countries.
Yes you can still go to the hospital or die of COVID if you get vaccinated--it is not 100% effective. However the alternative odds are much much worse.

What is happening--is the anti-vax/any health recommendations crowd are either misusing or making up data where there is not the detail they are claiming (Wales)
Confabulating completely where there is bad/anecdotal data (india)
Pointing out small spikes to say it isn't working (Israel--but that was a vaccine immunity fading issue with Pfizer--which they reversed)
And pointing out the small spike in Israel vs Sweden- which on the whole is still doing loads worse per capita deaths/hospitalizations, etc on every measure than Israel, despite being richer.

So yes the Pfizer, and to a lesser extent Moderna fade--but we knew this going in as we made the choice to go with shorter dosing intervals rather than 4-5 mo between doses. While this for sure saved lives and hospital visits--it will also mean people will have to come back for boosters.

There is no conspiracy to any of it--several vaccine experts said at the time this is sub-optimal dosing schedule and we will have to see how long immunity lasts.

I am willing to bet almost anything we will see pockets of spikes in highly vaccinated areas. More likely than not it will be the vaccine immunity fading for vulnerable groups who also got shots first. Nowhere in the US has 100% vaccinated - so we could see a spike--and it could be the small percentage of unvaxxed driving a large part of the spike. Our data collection is not as good as centralized heath providers but we can assume similar things will happen as we see elsewhere.

We see unvaccinated driving new deaths and hospitilzations in Israel who keeps good data 17% of unvaxxed driving 50% of new deaths and 66% of serious cases.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/covid-israel-unvaccinated-17-nearly-half-deaths-booster-pfizer-1.10216067
They have age cohort and vaccine status--its pretty telling:


This doesn't mean something doesn't work or we were lied to. We did sub-optimnal time between doses to stop deaths and hospitalizations and it worked. Again take the behavior and stats as a whole--those areas are doing much better than less vaccinated areas. And Israel has great data and fast recovery showing what a booster campaign can do (for those that take it).

[khufure]

One would have to be obtuse not to get the vax, wouldn't you agree?

Forget obtuse, not getting a vaccine in a pandemic is straight immoral.

[waffle]

you have to bend your logic REALLY Pretzel-like for it to make sense. Luckily the internet is full of people willing to help!

[waffle]

AND, from a ted talk. Sounds alot like what I was trying to detail, eh?

Haugen’s claims follow similar warnings from others. In a viral TED talk last year, Yaël Eisenstat, who worked on elections integrity at Facebook and is currently a fellow at Berggruen Institute, said “social media companies like Facebook profit off of segmenting us and feeding us personalized content that both validates and exploits our biases.” She explained, “Their bottom line depends on provoking a strong emotion to keep us engaged, often incentivizing the most inflammatory and polarizing voices, to the point where finding common ground no longer feels possible. And despite a growing chorus of people crying out for the platforms to change, it’s clear they will not do enough on their own.”

[Almost Retired]

**I actually did go to school for many years, with degrees in Pharmacy and later in Law, both from the University of Illinois. And I passed 2 different Bar exams on the first try, the second one after less than a week of prep. I don't relish having to run counter to 95% of the posters on this forum. But I have the courage of my convictions. My education, my extensive reading, my observations as I oversee drug therapy in the hospitals I cover, all lead me to believe what I believe. Being unpopular here is not going to alter that. I don't need anyone's approval. The older you get the less you give a **** what other people think about you. It's liberating.

perhaps you are extensively reading the wrong stuff...that which dovetails with your worldview. misinformation campaigns ensnare a lot of reasonably intelligent people in this way

America itself has become a disinformation campaign. The government creates an agenda, usually to benefit the elites and screw the middle class. Then they have their minions in the parrot media, Silicon Valley, and academia create the echo chamber in support of their agenda. The American government can't even tell the truth about what is causing inflation nor can they admit how high it has already risen. They cook the statistics until they are meaningless. They cook the employment and unemployment statistics. Four sitting members of the corrupt Federal Reserve are resigning for front running their investment decision right before major policy statements. The rot at the top is so deep and so pervasive that I'm not sure it can ever be fixed.

[Almost Retired]

AND, from a ted talk. Sounds alot like what I was trying to detail, eh?

Haugen’s claims follow similar warnings from others. In a viral TED talk last year, Yaël Eisenstat, who worked on elections integrity at Facebook and is currently a fellow at Berggruen Institute, said “social media companies like Facebook profit off of segmenting us and feeding us personalized content that both validates and exploits our biases.” She explained, “Their bottom line depends on provoking a strong emotion to keep us engaged, often incentivizing the most inflammatory and polarizing voices, to the point where finding common ground no longer feels possible. And despite a growing chorus of people crying out for the platforms to change, it’s clear they will not do enough on their own.”

I have held a similar view for years with slightly different reasoning. This forum gets bogged down too much in left vs right, democrat vs republican. There is really only one party. The uni-party. And it stands for one thing. Ensuring that the corporate elites and their whores in Washington DC stay rich and get richer. All the blah, blah, blah of being for the "little guy" or "the middle class" is just a bunch of bull feathers they trot out 6 months before every national election. There are districts in America so downtrodden and basically unlivable that keep sending the same representatives back to Washington for decades. And NOTHING improves in their districts. But the common denominator is that they all get rich. Stay in Washington DC long enough and the opportunities for legal and illegal graft multiply with every re-election. And it makes me despise the Mitch McConnells of the world every bit as much as I despise the Pelosi clan. So these leaches foster the conflict because it keeps the rest of us at each other's throats and distracts our anger away from where is should be directed. At our parasitic elites and the DC cesspool. I'm not sure what can be done about it. The enmity between the two visions of America is pretty deeply imbedded by now. Maybe a Great Depression Part II might wake some people up.

[Almost Retired]

[

Why do you trust nonsense information over doctors, people who take oaths and go to school for many years to help you?

The thing is, you put so much effort into trying to find counter information on why not to take the vaccine. You post all of these random links, some of which are opinions of people who have no such medical training, when you could probably find 50 times as many articles, links, or peer reviewed studies, that shows why the vaccine is safe and effective. You’re just arguing for arguments sake. For any opinion or argument that we have, you can easily look up data, which you think will support your point of view, and then you choose to believe that. The data for COVID is overwhelmingly in favor for the vaccine.

You claim to talk to random people who say this or that, and talk about a random nurse or a random doctor who may have noticed something. I can claim that I have access to multiple groups that are restricted for only physicians, who talk about these things at length, on a daily basis. Out of the thousands of doctors that are in the multiple physician groups that I belong to, I have yet to see any one of them advocate for NOT getting the vaccine. There have been much disagreement on shutting down the country, but never about the vaccine efficacy or the results that we have personally witnessed on people with or without the vaccine, or the post COVID long hauler symptoms that we witness patients experience.

Great for you, you’re educated. My husband is a soon to be pharmacist…however he knows, just like other pharmacists, that our training is different. As the other poster mentioned, we have literally have dedicated our lives to treat people. We have to take 3 standardized tests during our 4 years of medical school (Step 1, Step 2CS and Step 2 CK), then take Step 3 during residency (shortest residency being 3 years), and then pass our board exam after residency. And if you do a fellowship after residency, go ahead and add another board exam. So we are very extensively trained. We all have our role…we all work as a team (doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc), but the doctors are the ones who have the ability to integrate someone’s personal health profile, and demographic data, with the knowledge for risks and benefits for particular treatments, because that is what we have been taught to do. This is why I’ll go back to one of my first points in this thread….please go see your doctor so that you can discuss with them what is best for you. They can help answer questions about what is fact from fiction, and any questions that you may have on the COVID vaccine or vaccines in general, and why they work best when a large percentage of people gets them.

And as I said a while back, I actually got the two shot regimen of the Moderna vaccine. Not because I really wanted to. Because I was more or less faced with resigning my job if I didn't. I got it more or less against my will. Happily I have had no untoward effects in the aftermath. I do give credence to the reporting of SOME PEOPLE getting vascular inflammatory reactions and other sequelae. The maid of honor at our wedding many decades ago came down with a tinnitis issue shortly after getting her 2nd jab. It persisted about 6 months but is now improving. Perhaps tinnitis is not a life threatening side effect but I'm just saying that these jabs are not without rick to some people. No drug of vaccine is perfectly safe for everyone. The possibility exists and is something people should be forewarned about.

I see my Doctor regularly. And I appreciate the slog is is to go through all that schooling, testing, residencies, etc. I respect what Doctors have to say. But I work with my Doctor. I don't place him on a pedestal and take his word on everything. And he has listened to me and adopted some of my requests in my care. For example by the time Covid made it to our shores I learned about the key role Vitamin D may play in our immunity. I asked him for a Vitamin D level with my yearly physical. It was not as high as I wanted it. I wanted a goal of about 50 ng/ml. So I went on supplements. First at 5,000 units daily. Several months late I got it retested and it was a little high. So I dropped my dose to 4,000 units a day. By that time they were already seeing a correlation statistically between low Vit D levels and severity of Covid infections. A possible factor. Now he orders a Vit D level every time I have a physical with blood work. I don't know if he does that for all his patients. Not my business. But he does it for me.

Now I don't think I'll be getting any boosters. Even if they try to force me to do it. I can retire at this point. I like my job. But I don't "need" my job. We have reduced our exposure to large crowds inside. It's a way of life now. Most of our recreational time is spent outdoors. I think that there is A POSSIBILITY that SOME PEOPLE wlll develop side effects form getting multiple boosters. And this is never going to end. I fully expect the mU variant to cause another spike this winter. And it will follow the same basic blueprint. More and more infections culminating in a 2-3 week "peak" period where all the hospitals fill up and deaths spike. Then next summer there will be the same scenario with whatever the variant de jour is at that time. Personally I am comfortable relying on my prophylactic regimen of quercetin, zinc, Vit D, Vit C and Tumeric. Every adult should have the right to determine the course of action they take with regard to their medical care. This is what I choose. My biggest objection to this whole immunization controversy is the heavy handed way the government has been approaching it. My "spider senses" are always aroused in any situation where I am feeling pressured into a decision. Whether it's my health or buying a house or a car.

Finally, you and the rest of the posters will be glad to hear that this will be my last post on the subject. We've beaten it to death by now. I appreciate that you have responded to my posts with level headed thoughts which I have given consideration to. In particular the potential problems as they relate to child bearing age women. It is true I often give them less consideration because I don't cover labor and delivery units. I wish you well, as well as your husband with his new career in Pharmacy. Once I found my niche it has been a rewarding career for me. I might have made more money eventually as a lawyer but my heart wasn't in it. Chasing money has its limits. At least for me. Kudos also to Ted Williams, another physician poster who gave thoughtful and insightful responses to some of my posts. To other who I may have come across as combative or snide, I apologize. But cut me some slack. I grew up in Englewood. Belligerence is in my DNA.

[waffle]

Why do you trust nonsense information over doctors, people who take oaths and go to school for many years to help you?

The thing is, you put so much effort into trying to find counter information on why not to take the vaccine. You post all of these random links, some of which are opinions of people who have no such medical training, when you could probably find 50 times as many articles, links, or peer reviewed studies, that shows why the vaccine is safe and effective. You’re just arguing for arguments sake. For any opinion or argument that we have, you can easily look up data, which you think will support your point of view, and then you choose to believe that. The data for COVID is overwhelmingly in favor for the vaccine.

You claim to talk to random people who say this or that, and talk about a random nurse or a random doctor who may have noticed something. I can claim that I have access to multiple groups that are restricted for only physicians, who talk about these things at length, on a daily basis. Out of the thousands of doctors that are in the multiple physician groups that I belong to, I have yet to see any one of them advocate for NOT getting the vaccine. There have been much disagreement on shutting down the country, but never about the vaccine efficacy or the results that we have personally witnessed on people with or without the vaccine, or the post COVID long hauler symptoms that we witness patients experience.

Great for you, you’re educated. My husband is a soon to be pharmacist…however he knows, just like other pharmacists, that our training is different. As the other poster mentioned, we have literally have dedicated our lives to treat people. We have to take 3 standardized tests during our 4 years of medical school (Step 1, Step 2CS and Step 2 CK), then take Step 3 during residency (shortest residency being 3 years), and then pass our board exam after residency. And if you do a fellowship after residency, go ahead and add another board exam. So we are very extensively trained. We all have our role…we all work as a team (doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc), but the doctors are the ones who have the ability to integrate someone’s personal health profile, and demographic data, with the knowledge for risks and benefits for particular treatments, because that is what we have been taught to do. This is why I’ll go back to one of my first points in this thread….please go see your doctor so that you can discuss with them what is best for you. They can help answer questions about what is fact from fiction, and any questions that you may have on the COVID vaccine or vaccines in general, and why they work best when a large percentage of people gets them.

And as I said a while back, I actually got the two shot regimen of the Moderna vaccine. Not because I really wanted to. Because I was more or less faced with resigning my job if I didn't. I got it more or less against my will. Happily I have had no untoward effects in the aftermath. I do give credence to the reporting of SOME PEOPLE getting vascular inflammatory reactions and other sequelae. The maid of honor at our wedding many decades ago came down with a tinnitis issue shortly after getting her 2nd jab. It persisted about 6 months but is now improving. Perhaps tinnitis is not a life threatening side effect but I'm just saying that these jabs are not without rick to some people. No drug of vaccine is perfectly safe for everyone. The possibility exists and is something people should be forewarned about.

I see my Doctor regularly. And I appreciate the slog is is to go through all that schooling, testing, residencies, etc. I respect what Doctors have to say. But I work with my Doctor. I don't place him on a pedestal and take his word on everything. And he has listened to me and adopted some of my requests in my care. For example by the time Covid made it to our shores I learned about the key role Vitamin D may play in our immunity. I asked him for a Vitamin D level with my yearly physical. It was not as high as I wanted it. I wanted a goal of about 50 ng/ml. So I went on supplements. First at 5,000 units daily. Several months late I got it retested and it was a little high. So I dropped my dose to 4,000 units a day. By that time they were already seeing a correlation statistically between low Vit D levels and severity of Covid infections. A possible factor. Now he orders a Vit D level every time I have a physical with blood work. I don't know if he does that for all his patients. Not my business. But he does it for me.

Now I don't think I'll be getting any boosters. Even if they try to force me to do it. I can retire at this point. I like my job. But I don't "need" my job. We have reduced our exposure to large crowds inside. It's a way of life now. Most of our recreational time is spent outdoors. I think that there is A POSSIBILITY that SOME PEOPLE wlll develop side effects form getting multiple boosters. And this is never going to end. I fully expect the mU variant to cause another spike this winter. And it will follow the same basic blueprint. More and more infections culminating in a 2-3 week "peak" period where all the hospitals fill up and deaths spike. Then next summer there will be the same scenario with whatever the variant de jour is at that time. Personally I am comfortable relying on my prophylactic regimen of quercetin, zinc, Vit D, Vit C and Tumeric. Every adult should have the right to determine the course of action they take with regard to their medical care. This is what I choose. My biggest objection to this whole immunization controversy is the heavy handed way the government has been approaching it. My "spider senses" are always aroused in any situation where I am feeling pressured into a decision. Whether it's my health or buying a house or a car.

Finally, you and the rest of the posters will be glad to hear that this will be my last post on the subject. We've beaten it to death by now. I appreciate that you have responded to my posts with level headed thoughts which I have given consideration to. In particular the potential problems as they relate to child bearing age women. It is true I often give them less consideration because I don't cover labor and delivery units. I wish you well, as well as your husband with his new career in Pharmacy. Once I found my niche it has been a rewarding career for me. I might have made more money eventually as a lawyer but my heart wasn't in it. Chasing money has its limits. At least for me. Kudos also to Ted Williams, another physician poster who gave thoughtful and insightful responses to some of my posts. To other who I may have come across as combative or snide, I apologize. But cut me some slack. I grew up in Englewood. Belligerence is in my DNA.

I stopped reading when you said "You claim to talk to random people who say this or that, and talk about a random nurse or a random doctor...etc. etc. etc."

That isn't close to what is going on here. That sounds more like you

most everyone taking the counter argument have provided COPIOUS reasons why their positions are better supported, by better sources.

You really aren't helping yourself by starting a paragraph with something so blatantly meant to reset the position of those you are arguing against, to diminish it. It made me laugh out loud which I suspect you would not appreciate, but there you go....

[dougthonus]

Why do you trust nonsense information over doctors, people who take oaths and go to school for many years to help you?

The thing is, you put so much effort into trying to find counter information on why not to take the vaccine. You post all of these random links, some of which are opinions of people who have no such medical training, when you could probably find 50 times as many articles, links, or peer reviewed studies, that shows why the vaccine is safe and effective. You’re just arguing for arguments sake. For any opinion or argument that we have, you can easily look up data, which you think will support your point of view, and then you choose to believe that. The data for COVID is overwhelmingly in favor for the vaccine.

You claim to talk to random people who say this or that, and talk about a random nurse or a random doctor who may have noticed something. I can claim that I have access to multiple groups that are restricted for only physicians, who talk about these things at length, on a daily basis. Out of the thousands of doctors that are in the multiple physician groups that I belong to, I have yet to see any one of them advocate for NOT getting the vaccine. There have been much disagreement on shutting down the country, but never about the vaccine efficacy or the results that we have personally witnessed on people with or without the vaccine, or the post COVID long hauler symptoms that we witness patients experience.

Great for you, you’re educated. My husband is a soon to be pharmacist…however he knows, just like other pharmacists, that our training is different. As the other poster mentioned, we have literally have dedicated our lives to treat people. We have to take 3 standardized tests during our 4 years of medical school (Step 1, Step 2CS and Step 2 CK), then take Step 3 during residency (shortest residency being 3 years), and then pass our board exam after residency. And if you do a fellowship after residency, go ahead and add another board exam. So we are very extensively trained. We all have our role…we all work as a team (doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc), but the doctors are the ones who have the ability to integrate someone’s personal health profile, and demographic data, with the knowledge for risks and benefits for particular treatments, because that is what we have been taught to do. This is why I’ll go back to one of my first points in this thread….please go see your doctor so that you can discuss with them what is best for you. They can help answer questions about what is fact from fiction, and any questions that you may have on the COVID vaccine or vaccines in general, and why they work best when a large percentage of people gets them.

And as I said a while back, I actually got the two shot regimen of the Moderna vaccine. Not because I really wanted to. Because I was more or less faced with resigning my job if I didn't. I got it more or less against my will. Happily I have had no untoward effects in the aftermath. I do give credence to the reporting of SOME PEOPLE getting vascular inflammatory reactions and other sequelae. The maid of honor at our wedding many decades ago came down with a tinnitis issue shortly after getting her 2nd jab. It persisted about 6 months but is now improving. Perhaps tinnitis is not a life threatening side effect but I'm just saying that these jabs are not without rick to some people. No drug of vaccine is perfectly safe for everyone. The possibility exists and is something people should be forewarned about.

I see my Doctor regularly. And I appreciate the slog is is to go through all that schooling, testing, residencies, etc. I respect what Doctors have to say. But I work with my Doctor. I don't place him on a pedestal and take his word on everything. And he has listened to me and adopted some of my requests in my care. For example by the time Covid made it to our shores I learned about the key role Vitamin D may play in our immunity. I asked him for a Vitamin D level with my yearly physical. It was not as high as I wanted it. I wanted a goal of about 50 ng/ml. So I went on supplements. First at 5,000 units daily. Several months late I got it retested and it was a little high. So I dropped my dose to 4,000 units a day. By that time they were already seeing a correlation statistically between low Vit D levels and severity of Covid infections. A possible factor. Now he orders a Vit D level every time I have a physical with blood work. I don't know if he does that for all his patients. Not my business. But he does it for me.

Now I don't think I'll be getting any boosters. Even if they try to force me to do it. I can retire at this point. I like my job. But I don't "need" my job. We have reduced our exposure to large crowds inside. It's a way of life now. Most of our recreational time is spent outdoors. I think that there is A POSSIBILITY that SOME PEOPLE wlll develop side effects form getting multiple boosters. And this is never going to end. I fully expect the mU variant to cause another spike this winter. And it will follow the same basic blueprint. More and more infections culminating in a 2-3 week "peak" period where all the hospitals fill up and deaths spike. Then next summer there will be the same scenario with whatever the variant de jour is at that time. Personally I am comfortable relying on my prophylactic regimen of quercetin, zinc, Vit D, Vit C and Tumeric. Every adult should have the right to determine the course of action they take with regard to their medical care. This is what I choose. My biggest objection to this whole immunization controversy is the heavy handed way the government has been approaching it. My "spider senses" are always aroused in any situation where I am feeling pressured into a decision. Whether it's my health or buying a house or a car.

Finally, you and the rest of the posters will be glad to hear that this will be my last post on the subject. We've beaten it to death by now. I appreciate that you have responded to my posts with level headed thoughts which I have given consideration to. In particular the potential problems as they relate to child bearing age women. It is true I often give them less consideration because I don't cover labor and delivery units. I wish you well, as well as your husband with his new career in Pharmacy. Once I found my niche it has been a rewarding career for me. I might have made more money eventually as a lawyer but my heart wasn't in it. Chasing money has its limits. At least for me. Kudos also to Ted Williams, another physician poster who gave thoughtful and insightful responses to some of my posts. To other who I may have come across as combative or snide, I apologize. But cut me some slack. I grew up in Englewood. Belligerence is in my DNA.

Not sure if you have quotes of other people in here that got wiped out, because this doesn't seem like a congruent post of yours. I know you said you don't want to post anymore at the end here, and that's fine, just pointing this out, because the top half looks like something you are replying to and you may want to edit it.

[Stratmaster]

**I actually did go to school for many years, with degrees in Pharmacy and later in Law, both from the University of Illinois. And I passed 2 different Bar exams on the first try, the second one after less than a week of prep. I don't relish having to run counter to 95% of the posters on this forum. But I have the courage of my convictions. My education, my extensive reading, my observations as I oversee drug therapy in the hospitals I cover, all lead me to believe what I believe. Being unpopular here is not going to alter that. I don't need anyone's approval. The older you get the less you give a **** what other people think about you. It's liberating.

perhaps you are extensively reading the wrong stuff...that which dovetails with your worldview. misinformation campaigns ensnare a lot of reasonably intelligent people in this way

America itself has become a disinformation campaign. The government creates an agenda, usually to benefit the elites and screw the middle class. Then they have their minions in the parrot media, Silicon Valley, and academia create the echo chamber in support of their agenda. The American government can't even tell the truth about what is causing inflation nor can they admit how high it has already risen. They cook the statistics until they are meaningless. They cook the employment and unemployment statistics. Four sitting members of the corrupt Federal Reserve are resigning for front running their investment decision right before major policy statements. The rot at the top is so deep and so pervasive that I'm not sure it can ever be fixed.

A healthy mistrust of the government is not necessarily a bad thing. An unhealthy one on the other hand...

This is why I use Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, John Hopkins and other similar sources for my medical information.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[dice]

perhaps you are extensively reading the wrong stuff...that which dovetails with your worldview. misinformation campaigns ensnare a lot of reasonably intelligent people in this way

America itself has become a disinformation campaign. The government creates an agenda, usually to benefit the elites and screw the middle class. Then they have their minions in the parrot media, Silicon Valley, and academia create the echo chamber in support of their agenda. The American government can't even tell the truth about what is causing inflation nor can they admit how high it has already risen. They cook the statistics until they are meaningless. They cook the employment and unemployment statistics. Four sitting members of the corrupt Federal Reserve are resigning for front running their investment decision right before major policy statements. The rot at the top is so deep and so pervasive that I'm not sure it can ever be fixed.

A healthy mistrust of the government is not necessarily a bad thing. An unhealthy one on the other hand...

This is why I use Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, John Hopkins and other similar sources for my medical information.

this idea that academics are somehow under the thumb of the federal government is cuckoo for cocoa puffs. and there's absolutely no reason to believe that employment numbers are being cooked. if they wanted to deceive the public on that front, they'd simply not publish the numbers. as for the methodology, whether you agree with it or not, everybody only uses it as a relative measurement anyway, i.e. is unemployment high or low relative to previous numbers. it's not like they're changing the way it's calculated when they feel like it

[chifan1798]

Why do you trust nonsense information over doctors, people who take oaths and go to school for many years to help you?

The thing is, you put so much effort into trying to find counter information on why not to take the vaccine. You post all of these random links, some of which are opinions of people who have no such medical training, when you could probably find 50 times as many articles, links, or peer reviewed studies, that shows why the vaccine is safe and effective. You’re just arguing for arguments sake. For any opinion or argument that we have, you can easily look up data, which you think will support your point of view, and then you choose to believe that. The data for COVID is overwhelmingly in favor for the vaccine.

You claim to talk to random people who say this or that, and talk about a random nurse or a random doctor who may have noticed something. I can claim that I have access to multiple groups that are restricted for only physicians, who talk about these things at length, on a daily basis. Out of the thousands of doctors that are in the multiple physician groups that I belong to, I have yet to see any one of them advocate for NOT getting the vaccine. There have been much disagreement on shutting down the country, but never about the vaccine efficacy or the results that we have personally witnessed on people with or without the vaccine, or the post COVID long hauler symptoms that we witness patients experience.

Great for you, you’re educated. My husband is a soon to be pharmacist…however he knows, just like other pharmacists, that our training is different. As the other poster mentioned, we have literally have dedicated our lives to treat people. We have to take 3 standardized tests during our 4 years of medical school (Step 1, Step 2CS and Step 2 CK), then take Step 3 during residency (shortest residency being 3 years), and then pass our board exam after residency. And if you do a fellowship after residency, go ahead and add another board exam. So we are very extensively trained. We all have our role…we all work as a team (doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc), but the doctors are the ones who have the ability to integrate someone’s personal health profile, and demographic data, with the knowledge for risks and benefits for particular treatments, because that is what we have been taught to do. This is why I’ll go back to one of my first points in this thread….please go see your doctor so that you can discuss with them what is best for you. They can help answer questions about what is fact from fiction, and any questions that you may have on the COVID vaccine or vaccines in general, and why they work best when a large percentage of people gets them.

And as I said a while back, I actually got the two shot regimen of the Moderna vaccine. Not because I really wanted to. Because I was more or less faced with resigning my job if I didn't. I got it more or less against my will. Happily I have had no untoward effects in the aftermath. I do give credence to the reporting of SOME PEOPLE getting vascular inflammatory reactions and other sequelae. The maid of honor at our wedding many decades ago came down with a tinnitis issue shortly after getting her 2nd jab. It persisted about 6 months but is now improving. Perhaps tinnitis is not a life threatening side effect but I'm just saying that these jabs are not without rick to some people. No drug of vaccine is perfectly safe for everyone. The possibility exists and is something people should be forewarned about.

I see my Doctor regularly. And I appreciate the slog is is to go through all that schooling, testing, residencies, etc. I respect what Doctors have to say. But I work with my Doctor. I don't place him on a pedestal and take his word on everything. And he has listened to me and adopted some of my requests in my care. For example by the time Covid made it to our shores I learned about the key role Vitamin D may play in our immunity. I asked him for a Vitamin D level with my yearly physical. It was not as high as I wanted it. I wanted a goal of about 50 ng/ml. So I went on supplements. First at 5,000 units daily. Several months late I got it retested and it was a little high. So I dropped my dose to 4,000 units a day. By that time they were already seeing a correlation statistically between low Vit D levels and severity of Covid infections. A possible factor. Now he orders a Vit D level every time I have a physical with blood work. I don't know if he does that for all his patients. Not my business. But he does it for me.

Now I don't think I'll be getting any boosters. Even if they try to force me to do it. I can retire at this point. I like my job. But I don't "need" my job. We have reduced our exposure to large crowds inside. It's a way of life now. Most of our recreational time is spent outdoors. I think that there is A POSSIBILITY that SOME PEOPLE wlll develop side effects form getting multiple boosters. And this is never going to end. I fully expect the mU variant to cause another spike this winter. And it will follow the same basic blueprint. More and more infections culminating in a 2-3 week "peak" period where all the hospitals fill up and deaths spike. Then next summer there will be the same scenario with whatever the variant de jour is at that time. Personally I am comfortable relying on my prophylactic regimen of quercetin, zinc, Vit D, Vit C and Tumeric. Every adult should have the right to determine the course of action they take with regard to their medical care. This is what I choose. My biggest objection to this whole immunization controversy is the heavy handed way the government has been approaching it. My "spider senses" are always aroused in any situation where I am feeling pressured into a decision. Whether it's my health or buying a house or a car.

Finally, you and the rest of the posters will be glad to hear that this will be my last post on the subject. We've beaten it to death by now. I appreciate that you have responded to my posts with level headed thoughts which I have given consideration to. In particular the potential problems as they relate to child bearing age women. It is true I often give them less consideration because I don't cover labor and delivery units. I wish you well, as well as your husband with his new career in Pharmacy. Once I found my niche it has been a rewarding career for me. I might have made more money eventually as a lawyer but my heart wasn't in it. Chasing money has its limits. At least for me. Kudos also to Ted Williams, another physician poster who gave thoughtful and insightful responses to some of my posts. To other who I may have come across as combative or snide, I apologize. But cut me some slack. I grew up in Englewood. Belligerence is in my DNA.

Not sure if you have quotes of other people in here that got wiped out, because this doesn't seem like a congruent post of yours. I know you said you don't want to post anymore at the end here, and that's fine, just pointing this out, because the top half looks like something you are replying to and you may want to edit it.

Yeah, he didn’t quote properly. Part of the post is my reply to him, and above mine was another poster’s reply to him.

[dougthonus]

from the FB whisteblower:

The key problem, Haugen argued, is that Facebook’s business is built around driving as much engagement as possible from the social network’s billions of users, and data shows that social media users engage more with inflammatory content.

It ain't about the message, it's about the revenue. And ideas on the edge, heck, over the cliff, are more profitable

This business model has existed for years. I think it's an interesting new set of ethics to have to decide what obligation facebook has to help with these things.

It's similar to industrial companies had to be accountable for pollution and other problems they were causing.

[jmajew]

from the FB whisteblower:

The key problem, Haugen argued, is that Facebook’s business is built around driving as much engagement as possible from the social network’s billions of users, and data shows that social media users engage more with inflammatory content.

It ain't about the message, it's about the revenue. And ideas on the edge, heck, over the cliff, are more profitable

This business model has existed for years. I think it's an interesting new set of ethics to have to decide what obligation facebook has to help with these things.

It's similar to industrial companies had to be accountable for pollution and other problems they were causing.

Just dropping in on this. I do not use social media other than LinkedIn. I have always believed that it would drive me insane. I never thought it was healthy for someone to have it as it seemed rather odd to me to be sharing everything I'm doing to the world. It's called your private life for a reason, in my opinion. The pandemic & 2016 election went a long way to solidify my viewpoints on it. I think social media is a ruining what it means to be human. The algorithms help to create group think and helps to create situations where even small pockets of people with way out there viewpoints begin to feel their viewpoint is main stream. Hence, the reason our country is so polarized on everything. I've so far kept my kids of all forms of social media and plan to push that for as long as possible. We even try not to let them play video games, and they definitely aren't allowed to play video games online.

I feel very strongly about this. The amount of misinformation and groupthink created by social media is crazy. That doesn't even include what happens to people's mental health seeing all these peoples fake lives. To me social media is as big of an issue for the world as climate change long term. Note I believe we will limit climate change.

Rant over.

Edit: I enjoy certain message boards, IE sports ones, because they are boards where all viewpoints are shared and I'm not artificially force fed one side of the discussion.

[micromonkey]

A whole lot of this going on.


There were 43K deaths during the Blitz--and they took their lives seriously.

Instead of doing the simple and responsible things like our grandparents did-we are convinced any slight deviation from what we want to do is a massive abuse of rights and the highway to loss of all freedoms.

People are just trying to save as many lives as possible. People are not getting vaccinated mainly out of (bad) choices --not lack of availability or effectiveness (in the US).

I just don't think you can point to any other time in history when we have been so spoiled and so childishly unwilling.
No other generation would act as collectively stupid.

We've lost more to COVID than all US combat losses of all wars combined
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

I don't get what is hard. Basically we have loud children who don't want to eat their broccoli and are litigating it with made up stories.

[waffle]

from the FB whisteblower:

The key problem, Haugen argued, is that Facebook’s business is built around driving as much engagement as possible from the social network’s billions of users, and data shows that social media users engage more with inflammatory content.

It ain't about the message, it's about the revenue. And ideas on the edge, heck, over the cliff, are more profitable

This business model has existed for years. I think it's an interesting new set of ethics to have to decide what obligation facebook has to help with these things.

It's similar to industrial companies had to be accountable for pollution and other problems they were causing.

Just dropping in on this. I do not use social media other than LinkedIn. I have always believed that it would drive me insane. I never thought it was healthy for someone to have it as it seemed rather odd to me to be sharing everything I'm doing to the world. It's called your private life for a reason, in my opinion. The pandemic & 2016 election went a long way to solidify my viewpoints on it. I think social media is a ruining what it means to be human. The algorithms help to create group think and helps to create situations where even small pockets of people with way out there viewpoints begin to feel their viewpoint is main stream. Hence, the reason our country is so polarized on everything. I've so far kept my kids of all forms of social media and plan to push that for as long as possible. We even try not to let them play video games, and they definitely aren't allowed to play video games online.

I feel very strongly about this. The amount of misinformation and groupthink created by social media is crazy. That doesn't even include what happens to people's mental health seeing all these peoples fake lives. To me social media is as big of an issue for the world as climate change long term. Note I believe we will limit climate change.

Rant over.

Edit: I enjoy certain message boards, IE sports ones, because they are boards where all viewpoints are shared and I'm not artificially force fed one side of the discussion.

totally agree. I was one of the first 1000 people on FB. I haven't used in in 10 years or so. I recognized how unhealthy it was

And it is all self optimizing and algorithm based. It's a cruise missile. In one sense you can see FB's argument, we didn't drive people to these extremes! They did it themselves! Except when you remember that the guiding principle of all the built in intelligence (and trust me it is HUGE) is to make money. And has been discussed previously, strongly held out there beliefs are just more valuable. And like it or not they seem to trend conservative. It is easier to CAPTURE the conservative portion of the population I think because they are generally more paranoid and it is easy to appeal to that paranoia

I was around for the birth of the modern internet...we didn't forsee this!

[waffle]

the facebook hearings were pretty interesting. What I have been discussing over these pages is now out there in the public.

algorithms. Profit. Lack of oversight. GREED over any form of morality.