The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

[dc]

If you are saying that edited instagram footage of a scrimmage has real meaning then I don't know what to say, difference of opinion there between us.

I agree that you can't put too much stock into these offseason scrimmage/pick ups. I mean I remember a couple summers ago Antonio Blakeney or whatever his name is was scrimmaging on the same floor as Chris Paul and Westbrook at UCLA and the guy looked every bit as All NBA as those two. There's youtube footage of those scrimmages.

But in reality, Blakeney is a fringe NBA player and spent last year in China.

But I do think Williams is a legit prospect with enough skill to go along with the measureables. A reach at #4? Sure, but everone in the Top 7-8 picks were a reach to some degree. That explains why there were no trade ups in the lottery. Nobody wanted to trade up just to make a reach pick.

You could argue that Deni at #9 was the first guy who "fell" and wasn't a reach.

[Bulls Fan 23]

Read on Twitter

I was mad when the Bulls cut Spencer, let's bring him back. Trade Thad to Brooklyn for him.

[PaKii94]

So you think they wanted to trade with Charlotte for 3 but wouldn’t offer the exact same terms for Chicago at 4? If they get him at 4 they get to pay him even less $, there is no downside.

I never said mine was the definitive ranking. We all agreed before the draft that all these guys were ranked similarly. We all agreed before the draft (pre-rumors) Patrick wasn’t worthy of 4. But now that it happened, people are bending over backwards to hype this guy up. It’s fine, but I can be disappointed.

There were people ready to throw a fit if we took Deni. A few people said they would stop being Bulls fans if they took Ball. But for some reason me not enthusiastically jumping on board with this decision is not allowed. There were many better options, something like 5-10 when you factor in trades. With that said, I like the kid and want him to do well. I just don’t see any star potential outside of the Butler miracle scenario (unlike true raw prospects like a Poku). There were other guys with better star chances, including at 7.

The reason they were moving up is to get ahead of the bulls. If the bulls want PWill and detroit want PWill then they can't force the bulls to take 7/16 for #4.

You are allowed to not like the pick but your justification of "multiple trades out there", "why not just trade down" doesn't apply cause we really don't know what the options were. After the first 3 picks, it was a crapshoot on where people were ranked. AK liked PWill at #4 and took him.

What are you saying? Bulls can just call Detroit and say, "he we heard you wanted PWill ahead of us. How about you just just buy us off by sending us 7/16 and we will let you have him at 4. Otherwise, we are taking him at 4. Then Detroit gives him the same offer they were giving to Charlotte.

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

[Am2626]

I don't think it's a bad draft. I think that opinion is relative to those that judge based on star availability. Nothings wrong with that.

I just think the draft was incredibly deep in regards to starters and roll players.

I think you can have a Deng floor - Kawhi ceiling and not be a unanimous #1 pick. That's because you always hear about his potential and his probability of improvement - So many speak so highly of his work ethic, so if you believe in that, those projections make sense.

But you'd waffle if the probability isn't high numerically.

I'm not sure a lot of teams even got to see him work out. I'm stuck wondering why Pat is STILL mum on who he worked out for. Maybe AK kept him tucked so no one else would see this floor and ceiling? I dunno.

I don’t know how anyone can think that this guy’s floor is already Deng. Deng was a 2 time All Star. The reality is that Williams is raw and a big unknown at this point. Not upset that he is the Bulls pick but taking him at number 4 is a reach. He was projected 7-10 on pretty much every mock draft board.

I didn't say his floor is ALREADY Deng. I'm saying once established the worst his best can be is Deng - that's his floor. - The best, his best can be is Kawhi.

It's all up to how his development is handled.

Making 2 All Stars isn't a prerequisite to being compared to Deng considering how team success has a lot to do with why he made it those years.

He moves better than him, and I think he will bring some of the same things Luol brought. Defense, reliability. I think Billy will allow him to thrive in the midrange, he can hit 3's.

I'm seeing it.

Many NBA lottery picks bust. While Patrick Williams could turn out to be a good or even great NBA Player he could also be a complete bust and out of the league in 4 years. There were much better prospects that have busted. He’s not a sure thing.

[coldfish]

So you think they wanted to trade with Charlotte for 3 but wouldn’t offer the exact same terms for Chicago at 4? If they get him at 4 they get to pay him even less $, there is no downside.

I never said mine was the definitive ranking. We all agreed before the draft that all these guys were ranked similarly. We all agreed before the draft (pre-rumors) Patrick wasn’t worthy of 4. But now that it happened, people are bending over backwards to hype this guy up. It’s fine, but I can be disappointed.

There were people ready to throw a fit if we took Deni. A few people said they would stop being Bulls fans if they took Ball. But for some reason me not enthusiastically jumping on board with this decision is not allowed. There were many better options, something like 5-10 when you factor in trades. With that said, I like the kid and want him to do well. I just don’t see any star potential outside of the Butler miracle scenario (unlike true raw prospects like a Poku). There were other guys with better star chances, including at 7.

People are now working with new information.

We hadn’t seen these videos of Williams cooking NBA players with a full arsenal of moves.

Also, a lot of people, myself included, are giving AK the benefit of the doubt.

He seemed pretty emphatic that this was the guy, and his track record in Denver obviously gives him credibility.

I thought this was an incredibly weak draft, so I wasn’t enthused about anybody at 4.

But Williams is growing on me now that I’ve started to research him.

If you are saying that edited instagram footage of a scrimmage has real meaning then I don't know what to say, difference of opinion there between us.

Agree and believe he was their guy. Disappointed the same way you would be if we took Bey at 4 or whatever.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

When I heard he might be the guy, I did what most fans do. Looked at his youtube highlights. I then actually watched a good bit of a full game and some condensed games. What I saw was stunningly bad. His youtube highlights were a bunch of help side blocks and open dunks that countless high schoolers could do. His mix tapes are some of the worst you will find. In game, he looks slow and stiff. His jump shot looks slow and has a hitch that makes it look like its easy to contest. You see virtually no offensive aggression or ball handling. Watching a non edited game has him disappearing for long stretches.

That instagram video is weird. He showed like, none of that in college. His jumper even looks different and quicker. Most fans tend to forget that even the worst NBA player is fantastic at playing basketball so they should all look good in a random gym but if you saw a gym video of Shaq taking step back pull up 3's, it would be hard to process.

I still don't have a good feeling about PW. That said, the instagram video actually gave me a sliver of hope that he was fantastically misused in FSU.

[cjbulls]

The reason they were moving up is to get ahead of the bulls. If the bulls want PWill and detroit want PWill then they can't force the bulls to take 7/16 for #4.

You are allowed to not like the pick but your justification of "multiple trades out there", "why not just trade down" doesn't apply cause we really don't know what the options were. After the first 3 picks, it was a crapshoot on where people were ranked. AK liked PWill at #4 and took him.

What are you saying? Bulls can just call Detroit and say, "he we heard you wanted PWill ahead of us. How about you just just buy us off by sending us 7/16 and we will let you have him at 4. Otherwise, we are taking him at 4. Then Detroit gives him the same offer they were giving to Charlotte.

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

[Wingy]

What are you saying? Bulls can just call Detroit and say, "he we heard you wanted PWill ahead of us. How about you just just buy us off by sending us 7/16 and we will let you have him at 4. Otherwise, we are taking him at 4. Then Detroit gives him the same offer they were giving to Charlotte.

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

You clearly don’t get it despite stating you do. If you understood he was their guy, then the “so many other options” were in fact inferior in their minds. Why would they go with what they view as inferior options?

[Jahensle]

What are you saying? Bulls can just call Detroit and say, "he we heard you wanted PWill ahead of us. How about you just just buy us off by sending us 7/16 and we will let you have him at 4. Otherwise, we are taking him at 4. Then Detroit gives him the same offer they were giving to Charlotte.

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

It seems likely that the front office valued Pat Williams more than say Deni + Maxey/Poku. I can't say I blame them. The drop off after Lewis is pretty substantial. The only other player after 13 that is exciting to me is Anthony at 15.

[cjbulls]

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

You clearly don’t get it despite stating you do. If you understood he was their guy, then the “so many other options” were in fact inferior in their minds. Why would they go with what they view as inferior options?

Why is his so hard to understand, their guy wasn’t worth it to me. What is this weird mentality why we can’t question the choice. I gave them leeway over a number of options, but they dipped so low that I no longer agree with the value.

People hated Deni. People hated Ball. People hated Okoro. So are they not allowed to be disappointed if AK took them?

Or does the “he’s our guy” blessing have to be accepted with a smile for all fans.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

People are now working with new information.

We hadn’t seen these videos of Williams cooking NBA players with a full arsenal of moves.

Also, a lot of people, myself included, are giving AK the benefit of the doubt.

He seemed pretty emphatic that this was the guy, and his track record in Denver obviously gives him credibility.

I thought this was an incredibly weak draft, so I wasn’t enthused about anybody at 4.

But Williams is growing on me now that I’ve started to research him.

If you are saying that edited instagram footage of a scrimmage has real meaning then I don't know what to say, difference of opinion there between us.

Agree and believe he was their guy. Disappointed the same way you would be if we took Bey at 4 or whatever.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

When I heard he might be the guy, I did what most fans do. Looked at his youtube highlights. I then actually watched a good bit of a full game and some condensed games. What I saw was stunningly bad. His youtube highlights were a bunch of help side blocks and open dunks that countless high schoolers could do. His mix tapes are some of the worst you will find. In game, he looks slow and stiff. His jump shot looks slow and has a hitch that makes it look like its easy to contest. You see virtually no offensive aggression or ball handling. Watching a non edited game has him disappearing for long stretches.

That instagram video is weird. He showed like, none of that in college. His jumper even looks different and quicker. Most fans tend to forget that even the worst NBA player is fantastic at playing basketball so they should all look good in a random gym but if you saw a gym video of Shaq taking step back pull up 3's, it would be hard to process.

I still don't have a good feeling about PW. That said, the instagram video actually gave me a sliver of hope that he was fantastically misused in FSU.

I see it more of a testament to his work ethic to have gotten so much better post FSU.

[cjbulls]

I'm saying the prize to get was PWill. Detroit was trying to trade ahead so they could take him. Why would bulls move down in stock to inferior prospects if PWill is the one they want? They decline if detroit offers because they are targeting PWill, not a ploy to trade down.

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

It seems likely that the front office valued Pat Williams more than say Deni + Maxey/Poku. I can't say I blame them. The drop off after Lewis is pretty substantial. The only other player after 13 that is exciting to me is Anthony at 15.

The gap between between Williams and Bey/Green isn’t big. Certainly worth getting the #7 pick as well for your choice of Hayes/Deni/Toppin/Hali

[Wingy]

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

You clearly don’t get it despite stating you do. If you understood he was their guy, then the “so many other options” were in fact inferior in their minds. Why would they go with what they view as inferior options?

Why is his so hard to understand, their guy wasn’t worth it to me. What is this weird mentality why we can’t question the choice. I gave them leeway over a number of options, but they dipped so low that I no longer agree with the value.

People hated Deni. People hated Ball. People hated Okoro. So are they not allowed to be disappointed if AK took them?

Or does the “he’s our guy” blessing have to be accepted with a smile for all fans.

You fail to separate two things that are clearly separate.

1. Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion.
2. AK doesn’t care about your opinion.

He didn’t see all these other “better” options because he’s not you. He chose the best option in his mind. Your whole posts assume he sees it like you do. He doesn’t.

[cjbulls]

You clearly don’t get it despite stating you do. If you understood he was their guy, then the “so many other options” were in fact inferior in their minds. Why would they go with what they view as inferior options?

Why is his so hard to understand, their guy wasn’t worth it to me. What is this weird mentality why we can’t question the choice. I gave them leeway over a number of options, but they dipped so low that I no longer agree with the value.

People hated Deni. People hated Ball. People hated Okoro. So are they not allowed to be disappointed if AK took them?

Or does the “he’s our guy” blessing have to be accepted with a smile for all fans.

You fail to separate two things that are clearly separate.

1. Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion.
2. AK doesn’t care about your opinion.

He didn’t see all these other “better” options because he’s not you. He chose the best option in his mind. Your whole posts assume he sees it like you do. He doesn’t.

Oh is this AK’s Bulls slack? Or is this a message board for Bulls fans to discuss their opinion?

[DuckIII]

You clearly don’t get it despite stating you do. If you understood he was their guy, then the “so many other options” were in fact inferior in their minds. Why would they go with what they view as inferior options?

Why is his so hard to understand, their guy wasn’t worth it to me. What is this weird mentality why we can’t question the choice. I gave them leeway over a number of options, but they dipped so low that I no longer agree with the value.

People hated Deni. People hated Ball. People hated Okoro. So are they not allowed to be disappointed if AK took them?

Or does the “he’s our guy” blessing have to be accepted with a smile for all fans.

You fail to separate two things that are clearly separate.

1. Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion.
2. AK doesn’t care about your opinion.

He didn’t see all these other “better” options because he’s not you. He chose the best option in his mind. Your whole posts assume he sees it like you do. He doesn’t.

And he’s operating with about 100x the information as the rest of us. And I say this as someone who is closer to cjbulls view of the pick than someone who is excited about it.

[PaKii94]

Because at best he's no better than the others, and they pick up a second pick. I get that you're saying he's their guy. The whole point is to say they had many other options that were all better than reaching for this guy. If Chicago's guy was actually Cassius Winston, and Detroit wanted him at 7, would you be ok with them staying there instead of the same deal, or would you question their decision making? I am just questioning the value at 4 with so many other options on the table.

It seems likely that the front office valued Pat Williams more than say Deni + Maxey/Poku. I can't say I blame them. The drop off after Lewis is pretty substantial. The only other player after 13 that is exciting to me is Anthony at 15.

The gap between between Williams and Bey/Green isn’t big. Certainly worth getting the #7 pick as well for your choice of Hayes/Deni/Toppin/Hali

That is your opinion. It's pretty clear that isn't how AK viewed the rankings. If the guy was cassius and they got him at 4, I'd have exactly the same reaction. It wasn't my guy but it clearly was there's. This is AKs game, let's see how he plays it.

If you go back to my posts before the draft, I also was advocating trading down, but if that wasn't to happen, I wanted them to get the person they thought was the best at that pick. It's obvious PWill is who they thought was best at the pick. It is what it is. You can criticize the value and the selection in general, that's what this board is here for. But the argument you are making doesn't make sense when you take AK's viewpoint into consideration.

[Ccwatercraft]

Can someone explain to me like I'm five why we're not using opj as a comparison to Williams?

I've only seen the YouTube clips of William's granted but on the surface they seem to be comparable, position, size, weight, basic skillsets. Obviously opj is more advanced in his career, but not 1 person has mentioned him as a comparison so I must be missing something obvious.

What am I not picking up on?

[cjbulls]

Why is his so hard to understand, their guy wasn’t worth it to me. What is this weird mentality why we can’t question the choice. I gave them leeway over a number of options, but they dipped so low that I no longer agree with the value.

People hated Deni. People hated Ball. People hated Okoro. So are they not allowed to be disappointed if AK took them?

Or does the “he’s our guy” blessing have to be accepted with a smile for all fans.

You fail to separate two things that are clearly separate.

1. Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion.
2. AK doesn’t care about your opinion.

He didn’t see all these other “better” options because he’s not you. He chose the best option in his mind. Your whole posts assume he sees it like you do. He doesn’t.

And he’s operating with about 100x the information as the rest of us. And I say this as someone who is closer to cjbulls view of the pick than someone who is excited about it.

Yet you were quite comfortable expressing displeasure with Mr. White last year. Why am I not allowed to express the same and discuss the other options?

[DuckIII]

Can someone explain to me like I'm five why we're not using opj as a comparison to Williams?

I've only seen the YouTube clips of William's granted but on the surface they seem to be comparable, position, size, weight, basic skillsets. Obviously opj is more advanced in his career, but not 1 person has mentioned him as a comparison so I must be missing something obvious.

What am I not picking up on?

OPJ is a much better shooter and PW is more of a bruising hybrid. OPJ is closer to a prototype 3.

[cjbulls]

It seems likely that the front office valued Pat Williams more than say Deni + Maxey/Poku. I can't say I blame them. The drop off after Lewis is pretty substantial. The only other player after 13 that is exciting to me is Anthony at 15.

The gap between between Williams and Bey/Green isn’t big. Certainly worth getting the #7 pick as well for your choice of Hayes/Deni/Toppin/Hali

That is your opinion. It's pretty clear that isn't how AK viewed the rankings. If the guy was cassius and they got him at 4, I'd have exactly the same reaction. It wasn't my guy but it clearly was there's. This is AKs game, let's see how he plays it.

If you go back to my posts before the draft, I also was advocating trading down, but if that wasn't to happen, I wanted them to get the person they thought was the best at that pick. It's obvious PWill is who they thought was best at the pick. It is what it is. You can criticize the value and the selection in general, that's what this board is here for. But the argument you are making doesn't make sense when you take AK's viewpoint into consideration.

You are another member of the blind loyalty club. That’s fine, I’m not there.

[RSP83]

If you are saying that edited instagram footage of a scrimmage has real meaning then I don't know what to say, difference of opinion there between us.

Agree and believe he was their guy. Disappointed the same way you would be if we took Bey at 4 or whatever.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

When I heard he might be the guy, I did what most fans do. Looked at his youtube highlights. I then actually watched a good bit of a full game and some condensed games. What I saw was stunningly bad. His youtube highlights were a bunch of help side blocks and open dunks that countless high schoolers could do. His mix tapes are some of the worst you will find. In game, he looks slow and stiff. His jump shot looks slow and has a hitch that makes it look like its easy to contest. You see virtually no offensive aggression or ball handling. Watching a non edited game has him disappearing for long stretches.

That instagram video is weird. He showed like, none of that in college. His jumper even looks different and quicker. Most fans tend to forget that even the worst NBA player is fantastic at playing basketball so they should all look good in a random gym but if you saw a gym video of Shaq taking step back pull up 3's, it would be hard to process.

I still don't have a good feeling about PW. That said, the instagram video actually gave me a sliver of hope that he was fantastically misused in FSU.

I see it more of a testament to his work ethic to have gotten so much better post FSU.

I don't know is that really possible that player get that much better in 6-7 months? Or he has always has it, he just tighten it up last 6-7 months.

Like fish mentioned, it would be weird to see Shaq suddenly pulling smooth stepback pull up 3. To develop new moves it requires training muscle memory, and is 6-7 months enough? Maybe it's enough for professional level athlete. But looking at Pat's highlight, I'm leaning toward he has it all along, he maybe just tighten it up this last 6-7 months. And he may have been too focused on his role at FSU, playing without the ball, which was why he looked awkward at times. So the awkwardness was actually him trying to do something new / very different role. Usually that happen when you think too much, you don't move like you usually move. Because you're thinking more with every move.