Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[GMgoran]

the taj-for-waiters/thompson idea honestly makes me want to pull my hair out

1) mirotic is completely unproven as an nba player at this point and you go from having absurdly good depth in your frontcourt to relying on a rookie, an old dude and a guy who's racked up a lot of milage recently, two of whom have a bit of an injury history. oh and tristan thompson yay

2) that being said, i can totally get behind the idea of trading taj for *a* wing to better balance the roster. waiters is uh, not that guy. the bulls don't need to be further diluting the talent level of the roster to add more "depth"; they need to concentrate it so they can play better players for more minutes. if you're packaging taj + mdj or snell or whatever for a wing, it should not be dion **** waiters

Great post. I'll add a few things:
- The whole trade Taj thing is basically coming from Mirotic people who believe in him and want him to get minutes. I have generally found that people base their value on Taj on their opinion of Mirotic. I think Mirotic has a high bust potential so I place a lot of value on Taj.
- However, if you really can get a good wing player for a package based on Taj, I think you have to strongly consider it. The Bulls wings are inexperienced and/or weak. Unless McDermott saves the team, its going to be a problem.
- Most of the trade discussion I see brings in inexperienced and/or weak wing players for Taj. Not sure how that solves the problem. I would be down for a guy that's a clear upgrade but I haven't seen that mentioned.
- If people really want Martin, the Bulls could offer Snell, Dunleavey and a vet min guy and get him if the Wolves really want to offload him that bad. I'm guessing that not many people are going to support that because of the Mirotic thing.

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

[coldfish]

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

[GMgoran]

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

MIrotic has much more to his game than Bargnani ... I agree that he needs to spend some time in the gym, and to work on his defence, but that is something a coach like Thibs can correct ... On the other hand, Mirotic has an exceptionally high basketball IQ, and from what I have seen of him over the years, he is very adaptable ... He would probably need a year to fully adapt to the league, but I have no doubt that he will have a productive NBA career ...

[jelt]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Anyone we can get with Taj+MDJ are going to be imperfect. You just gotta pick your poison. I pick young+inconsistent over cannot get to the rim or cannot shoot.

BTW, it certainly doesn't seem like the Cavs community thinks they have the next Tyrus on their hands:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/3/29/5 ... eally-that

[coldfish]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Anyone we can get with Taj+MDJ are going to be imperfect. You just gotta pick your poison. I pick young+inconsistent over cannot get to the rim or cannot shot.

BTW, it certainly doesn't seem like the Cavs community thinks they have the next Tyrus on their hands:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/3/29/5 ... eally-that

Just to note: I would be OK with giving up Taj, Dunleavey (exp), Snell and future picks for a true upgrade on the wing. Not sure who that is.

Also, a lot of us Bulls fans didn't think we had Tyrus on our hands when we had Tyrus after year 2.

[jelt]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Anyone we can get with Taj+MDJ are going to be imperfect. You just gotta pick your poison. I pick young+inconsistent over cannot get to the rim or cannot shot.

BTW, it certainly doesn't seem like the Cavs community thinks they have the next Tyrus on their hands:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/3/29/5 ... eally-that

Just to note: I would be OK with giving up Taj, Dunleavey (exp), Snell and future picks for a true upgrade on the wing. Not sure who that is.

Also, a lot of us Bulls fans didn't think we had Tyrus on our hands when we had Tyrus after year 2.

Fair enough. But that's how the NBA works. You seldom sell potential, just in case. Remember Tyrus after year 2: I'm pretty sure we would not have traded him for Taj, Dunleavy, Snell and future picks either. The only reason we have a chance to get Waiters here is 'cos of the Love trade.

[GMgoran]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Anyone we can get with Taj+MDJ are going to be imperfect. You just gotta pick your poison. I pick young+inconsistent over cannot get to the rim or cannot shot.

BTW, it certainly doesn't seem like the Cavs community thinks they have the next Tyrus on their hands:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/3/29/5 ... eally-that

Just to note: I would be OK with giving up Taj, Dunleavey (exp), Snell and future picks for a true upgrade on the wing. Not sure who that is.

Also, a lot of us Bulls fans didn't think we had Tyrus on our hands when we had Tyrus after year 2.

A combination of Gibson, Dunleavy, Snell and Sacramento's pick could very likely land us a quality wing player ... I won't throw in names for the sake of it, but that package could be a very interesting proposition for many teams come the trade deadline ... Of course, we should only make that trade if Mirotic and McDermott are progressing as expected ...

[League Circles]

I'm against trading Taj unless it's in a package for a star.

Taj is our highest floor player IMO.

[Ben]

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

Just going by European stats, there's no compelling reason to assume that Mirotic will be a significantly better shooter than Bargnani in the first place. Their stats are in the same ballpark. Have to hope for some other set of intangibles, aggressiveness, ability to learn & play defense. And maybe hope that Mirotic can play SF decently. If Bargnani could have done that he wouldn't have been such a big bust, because his lack of rebounding wouldn't have hurt his teams so much.

[johnnyvann840]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Anyone we can get with Taj+MDJ are going to be imperfect. You just gotta pick your poison. I pick young+inconsistent over cannot get to the rim or cannot shot.

BTW, it certainly doesn't seem like the Cavs community thinks they have the next Tyrus on their hands:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/3/29/5 ... eally-that

Just to note: I would be OK with giving up Taj, Dunleavey (exp), Snell and future picks for a true upgrade on the wing. Not sure who that is.

Also, a lot of us Bulls fans didn't think we had Tyrus on our hands when we had Tyrus after year 2.

That, and the fact that Waiters often looks overweight and out of shape. It displays a poor work ethic and less likelihood his talent ever comes to fruition in the NBA. It might, but it's just a very low percentage play right now. Who knows? Lebron might be really good for him. If the Cavs have already agreed to Wiggins for Love, and I think they have, Waiters is probably staying anyway. TG.

[PrimzyBulls81]

I think Taj would get more than he is making now with us,if he was a FA..if Hill got 9M per from Lakers,Taj would get 10M for sure..

[aramada]

Mirotic has the number one Thibs skill - a strong motor. That alone will make him better than Bargnani. He may still be a bust, but if his shooting translates (same if as McD), he should be fine

[Magilla_Gorilla]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

[Proven_Winner]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

It's apart of that what have you done for me now mindset. We sort of underrate him now, but I bet if he was traded and started putting up really good numbers most of this board would be calling for GAr/Pax's head.

[Chi town]

The problem w the taj for wing play is there are very few good SGs in the league rt now.

Taj>Martin
Taj>Waiters
Taj>Burks
Etc.

I like Taj for Dragic but I don't think the Bulls FO would. Thibs wants size on the wing and Dragic is the same size as Kirk w out the D. Dragic is also at an all time high due to his breakout season (w Bledsoe on the bench hurt and his stats inflated) and his cheap contract.

If Snell can carry over his SL confidence he really is the perfect SG especially next to Mc3. Spaces the floor, length on D for 2/3s, can handle, can pass, can create out of PnR.

I want to wait and see what happens. I think Snell could be our guy especially w Rose and Mc3 making offense easier for him.

[Red Larrivee]

I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

Oh boy.

[Red Larrivee]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

[Jcool0]

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

I am pretty sure if Mirotic had a Bargnani like season of 18 ppg 5-6 rebounds per and 1.5 three per game everyone would be jumping for joy.

[Shill]

The problem w the taj for wing play is there are very few good SGs in the league rt now.

Taj>Martin
Taj>Waiters
Taj>Burks
Etc.

I like Taj for Dragic but I don't think the Bulls FO would. Thibs wants size on the wing and Dragic is the same size as Kirk w out the D. Dragic is also at an all time high due to his breakout season (w Bledsoe on the bench hurt and his stats inflated) and his cheap contract.

If Snell can carry over his SL confidence he really is the perfect SG especially next to Mc3. Spaces the floor, length on D for 2/3s, can handle, can pass, can create out of PnR.

I want to wait and see what happens. I think Snell could be our guy especially w Rose and Mc3 making offense easier for him.

Agree with all of this.

I'm eager to see how Snell has progressed.

[Payt10]

Well, I respectfully disagree on that one ... Mirotic might need some time to adapt to the league, so we should not be in a hurry to offload Gibson, but as someone who has followed Mirotic's development over the past 4-5 years I am pretty much certain that he would at least turn into a good NBA starter, as the worst case scenario ...

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

I am pretty sure if Mirotic had a Bargnani like season of 18 ppg 5-6 rebounds per and 1.5 three per game everyone would be jumping for joy.

A better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I'd take that. Didn't he average 20-21 ppg for a year or two?

Frankly, I don't see the comparison. Mirotic seems like a high energy player in the videos I've seen of him. He's always the first man down the court in transition, and seems to work hard on defense more often than not. Bargnani quickly developed a reputation for being lazy and not much of a hard worker. I don't get that with Mirotic.