OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[dice]

Good news...Today in Illinois we tested 17,688 people and of that we got 1,677 positive tests. This is the first time I have seen the percentage of positive tests below 10% in the state.

more available testing means that the symptoms don't have to be as bad in order for a person to get tested, though. it's difficult to suss out what's actually going on right now in terms of infection rates

Actually if the percent of positive tests goes down with more testing that means the infection rate is probably going down.

that assumes that when you double the amount of testing you're testing the same sample group, which is not necessarily the case. early in the process, only people who were exhibiting a narrow range of symptoms and severities were getting tested. thus the rate of positive tests was obviously going to be very high. now we have a lot more tests available, our criteria for GETTING tested is lower, and obviously the infection rate is thus going to be lower

say 1000 people get a test in a particular week and the rate of positive tests is 40%. the next week a lot more tests are available, so 2000 people get tested, w/ 34% positive. does that mean that the transmission of the virus has decreased by 6% in only a week? or is it a function of increased testing?

[dice]

"if we didn't do any testing, we would have very few cases" - donald trump

"so we have the best testing in the world. it could be the testing's, frankly, overrated? maybe it is overrated" - the "leader" of the free world

by the way, for those who don't recognize the obvious, we're nowhere close to the "best testing in the world". percentage of the population tested:

16 iceland/UAE
13 bahrain
9 luxembourg
8 lithuania
6 denmark/portugal/israel
5 kuwait/belgium/spain/ireland/estonis/qatar/italy/new zealand
4 russia/norway/australia/singapore/austria/switzerland/germany
3 UK/USA/slovenia/czechia/canada
2 finland/kazakhstan/slovakia/hong kong/france/azerbaijan/serbia/mayotte/turkey/peru/sweden/chile/djibouti/netherlands

1 romania/saudi arabia/poland/s korea/bosnia/herzegovina/hungary/croatia/armenia/oman/greece/panama/uzbekistan/n macedonia/kyrgyzstan/bulgaria/malaysia/iran/el salvador/s africa/cuba/ghana/moldova/ecuador

0 ukraine/dominican/thailand/iraq/colombia/brazil/tunisia/gabon/morocco/argentina/japan/philippines/pakistan/senegal/india/mexico/egypt/bangladesh/guinae/bolivia/indonesia/ivory coast/honduras/afghanistan/guatemala/algeria/nigeria

THAT is why we are having trouble responsibly re-opening our economy

[dice]

taking vitamin D supplements could decrease severity of COVID-19 infection:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/new-study-suggests-vitamin-d-linked-covid-19-mortality-141201888.html

[dice]

[prolific passer]

Texans are mad due to the mask that he is wearing.

[dice]

sanofi, a prominent french pharma company, has suggested that the USA would be first in line for any COVID-19 vaccine it develops because we helped fund the research. the french prime minister isn't having it. world leaders are urging that no patents be granted for any vaccines and that no nation get priority:

https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/featurestories/2020/may/20200514_covid19-vaccine-open-letter

[dice]

spanish gov says that 5% of its population has been infected at some point. french study suggests that 4.4% of their population has been infected

we're probably a long way from herd immunity

meanwhile, experts have been saying that 500-700K daily tests will be necessary to safely begin to re-open the economy. we're on track to get into that range by the end of june

[Red8911]

The government can’t make people wear masks. It should be a choice. In a business though like a market it’s different, if they want you to wear a mask then you have to respect that rule and wear a mask.

Outside in public it’s a choice. If people don’t want to wear one they shouldn’t be forced to by anyone and if people get offended or scared by them then they shouldn’t go out in public. I will never wear a mask to just go for a walk at the park or around the block, that’s ridiculous.

I get the freedom/rights angle, as I'm in many ways a libertarian, but why would it be so ridiculous if it were deemed sufficiently beneficial? Clothes are required in public. Should those laws be changed as well?

I just don't understand the instinctual objection to masks. Like, why is it a burden even worth discussing? Just to protest government action? I don't see seatbelt law protests.....

Exactly. We are talking about public safety during a generational pandemic. It's asinine and ridiculous to cite freedom of choice in a situation like this. It's the opposite of what Red8911 just said. The people who don't want to wear them are the ones who should stay home and not go out. You are literally putting others at risk if you don't comply with something so simple. Listening to these wackjobs spouting off these outrageous conspiracy theories about everything from "this is just liberals trying to get Trump out of office"... or "they are lying about the number of deaths and calling everyone who dies a Covid-19 related death". It's sickening, quite frankly. I got into it with a guy yesterday about this.... he was going on about how "they" are lying just to keep Trump from getting re-elected"... and "people die of all kinds of things, all the time"..... "the common flu kills more people".. blah, blah..

https://www.brighteon.com/8b28dffe-4baa-41f9-af80-0b0eaa682602

[Red8911]

"if we didn't do any testing, we would have very few cases" - donald trump

"so we have the best testing in the world. it could be the testing's, frankly, overrated? maybe it is overrated" - the "leader" of the free world

by the way, for those who don't recognize the obvious, we're nowhere close to the "best testing in the world". percentage of the population tested:

16 iceland/UAE
13 bahrain
9 luxembourg
8 lithuania
6 denmark/portugal/israel
5 kuwait/belgium/spain/ireland/estonis/qatar/italy/new zealand
4 russia/norway/australia/singapore/austria/switzerland/germany
3 UK/USA/slovenia/czechia/canada
2 finland/kazakhstan/slovakia/hong kong/france/azerbaijan/serbia/mayotte/turkey/peru/sweden/chile/djibouti/netherlands

1 romania/saudi arabia/poland/s korea/bosnia/herzegovina/hungary/croatia/armenia/oman/greece/panama/uzbekistan/n macedonia/kyrgyzstan/bulgaria/malaysia/iran/el salvador/s africa/cuba/ghana/moldova/ecuador

0 ukraine/dominican/thailand/iraq/colombia/brazil/tunisia/gabon/morocco/argentina/japan/philippines/pakistan/senegal/india/mexico/egypt/bangladesh/guinae/bolivia/indonesia/ivory coast/honduras/afghanistan/guatemala/algeria/nigeria

THAT is why we are having trouble responsibly re-opening our economy

Don’t you think the US has a lot more people than some of those countries? Going with percentage just makes no sense at all.

[dice]

I get the freedom/rights angle, as I'm in many ways a libertarian, but why would it be so ridiculous if it were deemed sufficiently beneficial? Clothes are required in public. Should those laws be changed as well?

I just don't understand the instinctual objection to masks. Like, why is it a burden even worth discussing? Just to protest government action? I don't see seatbelt law protests.....

Exactly. We are talking about public safety during a generational pandemic. It's asinine and ridiculous to cite freedom of choice in a situation like this. It's the opposite of what Red8911 just said. The people who don't want to wear them are the ones who should stay home and not go out. You are literally putting others at risk if you don't comply with something so simple. Listening to these wackjobs spouting off these outrageous conspiracy theories about everything from "this is just liberals trying to get Trump out of office"... or "they are lying about the number of deaths and calling everyone who dies a Covid-19 related death". It's sickening, quite frankly. I got into it with a guy yesterday about this.... he was going on about how "they" are lying just to keep Trump from getting re-elected"... and "people die of all kinds of things, all the time"..... "the common flu kills more people".. blah, blah..

https://www.brighteon.com/8b28dffe-4baa-41f9-af80-0b0eaa682602

what exactly is your point?

you realize that we only know who fauci is because trump has been trotting him out at press conferences, right? because he's a freaking EXPERT

oh, wait...i'm getting it now...trump is part of the liberal conspiracy to bring down the trump administration!

[dice]

"if we didn't do any testing, we would have very few cases" - donald trump

"so we have the best testing in the world. it could be the testing's, frankly, overrated? maybe it is overrated" - the "leader" of the free world

by the way, for those who don't recognize the obvious, we're nowhere close to the "best testing in the world". percentage of the population tested:

16 iceland/UAE
13 bahrain
9 luxembourg
8 lithuania
6 denmark/portugal/israel
5 kuwait/belgium/spain/ireland/estonis/qatar/italy/new zealand
4 russia/norway/australia/singapore/austria/switzerland/germany
3 UK/USA/slovenia/czechia/canada
2 finland/kazakhstan/slovakia/hong kong/france/azerbaijan/serbia/mayotte/turkey/peru/sweden/chile/djibouti/netherlands

1 romania/saudi arabia/poland/s korea/bosnia/herzegovina/hungary/croatia/armenia/oman/greece/panama/uzbekistan/n macedonia/kyrgyzstan/bulgaria/malaysia/iran/el salvador/s africa/cuba/ghana/moldova/ecuador

0 ukraine/dominican/thailand/iraq/colombia/brazil/tunisia/gabon/morocco/argentina/japan/philippines/pakistan/senegal/india/mexico/egypt/bangladesh/guinae/bolivia/indonesia/ivory coast/honduras/afghanistan/guatemala/algeria/nigeria

THAT is why we are having trouble responsibly re-opening our economy

Don’t you think the US has a lot more people than some of those countries?

it does?!

Going with percentage just makes no sense at all.

and you're exactly wrong once again. because, you see, there are differing population sizes. as you just mentioned IN YOUR LAST SENTENCE

this is why the concept of percentage exists - to compare different sample sizes. like, you know, the populations of different countries

what method would you use to judge how widespread testing is if not percentage?

[johnnyvann840]

I get the freedom/rights angle, as I'm in many ways a libertarian, but why would it be so ridiculous if it were deemed sufficiently beneficial? Clothes are required in public. Should those laws be changed as well?

I just don't understand the instinctual objection to masks. Like, why is it a burden even worth discussing? Just to protest government action? I don't see seatbelt law protests.....

Exactly. We are talking about public safety during a generational pandemic. It's asinine and ridiculous to cite freedom of choice in a situation like this. It's the opposite of what Red8911 just said. The people who don't want to wear them are the ones who should stay home and not go out. You are literally putting others at risk if you don't comply with something so simple. Listening to these wackjobs spouting off these outrageous conspiracy theories about everything from "this is just liberals trying to get Trump out of office"... or "they are lying about the number of deaths and calling everyone who dies a Covid-19 related death". It's sickening, quite frankly. I got into it with a guy yesterday about this.... he was going on about how "they" are lying just to keep Trump from getting re-elected"... and "people die of all kinds of things, all the time"..... "the common flu kills more people".. blah, blah..

https://www.brighteon.com/8b28dffe-4baa-41f9-af80-0b0eaa682602

Please stop spreading this discredited BS.

You are dangerous.

Just an FYI for anyone who watched this "Plandemic" video.... this is a hoax and has been proven to be nothing but a trove of misinformation designed to prey on people who are vulnerable to wack-a-do conspiracy theories and the type of people who think Fox News is a real news channel. Believing this nonsense is not only dangerous to yourself but to others as well.

Red8911- I know you believe this crap but please do your own due diligence before you spread this crap around and believe and/or practice any of the bad ideas and misinformation in it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/05/plandemic-video-what-to-say-conspiracy/611464/

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/14/plandemic-movie-discredited-dr-doctor-judy-mikovits-how-debunked-conspiracy-theory-film-went-viral

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/5/12/21254184/how-plandemic-went-viral-facebook-youtube

https://www.wusa9.com/amp/article/news/verify/verify-the-plandemic-documentary-is-full-of-misinformation/507-95caed4e-7a95-4452-ba7f-98cd0442c9e9

[Dresden]

taking vitamin D supplements could decrease severity of COVID-19 infection:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/new-study-suggests-vitamin-d-linked-covid-19-mortality-141201888.html

Some people suggest that is why northern climates tend to do worse with the flu (among other factors), and why people with darker skin (less vit. D production) also are hit harder.

[moorhosj]

The point I'm making is that progressives want the output of the Nordic countries without the input.

If you want to fund such a robust social safety net, you need tax receipts.

I’ve heard my entire life that liberals are trying to raise taxes to pay for spending, so this doesn’t match my experience. Look at the tax proposals of every Democratic presidential candidate and tell me they are ignoring tax receipts. On the other side of the aisle, we get proposals of increased spending and LOWER taxes.

What those countries learned (as well as many other countries in Europe) is that high corporate taxes, burdensome regulations, and wealth taxes actually reduce your tax receipts because businesses and wealthy individuals are either crushed, or they simply leave, then the system collapses

Please name a Nordic system that has collapsed. If you can’t, please provide evidence of the reduced tax returns.

I'm saying that progressives want it both ways.

They want Nordic-style outputs without advocating for lower corporate taxes, less burdensome regulation, regressive VAT taxes, etc...

It's a harder sell when you tell people that everything they buy will be taxed at 20%, and if they want a car, it will be taxed at 100%.

If progressives want that system, they gotta pay for it, and simply "making the millionaires and billionaires pay" isn't gonna cut it.

Both parties vote for more spending again and again. I’ve only seen one of those parties propose increased taxes to actually fund the spending. Remind me again which party is trying to have it both ways. The easiest sell of all is, “We’ll lower taxes, increase spending and somehow still lower the deficit.” Somehow, it never seems to develop that way.

[Dresden]

The point I'm making is that progressives want the output of the Nordic countries without the input.

If you want to fund such a robust social safety net, you need tax receipts.

I’ve heard my entire life that liberals are trying to raise taxes to pay for spending, so this doesn’t match my experience. Look at the tax proposals of every Democratic presidential candidate and tell me they are ignoring tax receipts. On the other side of the aisle, we get proposals of increased spending and LOWER taxes.

What those countries learned (as well as many other countries in Europe) is that high corporate taxes, burdensome regulations, and wealth taxes actually reduce your tax receipts because businesses and wealthy individuals are either crushed, or they simply leave, then the system collapses

Please name a Nordic system that has collapsed. If you can’t, please provide evidence of the reduced tax returns.

I'm saying that progressives want it both ways.

They want Nordic-style outputs without advocating for lower corporate taxes, less burdensome regulation, regressive VAT taxes, etc...

It's a harder sell when you tell people that everything they buy will be taxed at 20%, and if they want a car, it will be taxed at 100%.

If progressives want that system, they gotta pay for it, and simply "making the millionaires and billionaires pay" isn't gonna cut it.

Both parties vote for more spending again and again. I’ve only seen one of those parties propose increased taxes to actually fund the spending. Remind me again which party is trying to have it both ways. The easiest sell of all is, “We’ll lower taxes, increase spending and somehow still lower the deficit.” Somehow, it never seems to develop that way.

Points well made, and what I've been trying to say, too. Liberals are fine with raising taxes to improve the social safety net. Much rather spend money on better schools, health care, and wages for working people, than giving it either to the military, or to the rich, in the hopes that they will use to create better jobs, and not just buy back stocks with it.

And same thing about the wealthy fleeing and the system collapsing- doesn't seem to be happening in Denmark or Sweden or Finland, does it? Ah, I know- that's just cherry picking. California, with it's high taxes and restrictive business requirements, seems to be doing pretty well also.

[Dresden]

Meanwhile, Sweden, that country that some here wanted to emulate, has one of the higher death rates in Europe:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/swedens-per-capita-coronavirus-death-233500208.html

[moorhosj]

As for open borders, quibbling over the term is semantics.

You introduce a term, get called out for it being false

Progressives are calling for the abolition of ICE and CBP, decriminalization of border crossings, amnesty, and universal healthcare. Some have even called for tearing down existing border barriers in El Paso and San Diego.

That may not be de jure open borders, but what's the significant difference?

Even in your fever dream of taking any proposal anyone has ever made and saying “progressives are calling for...” you still didn’t describe open borders. Sounds like we’d still have Visas, border checkpoints, deportations, and homeland security. Doesn’t sound very “open borders” to me.

Maybe someday I’ll understand how taxes and regulation are “authoritarian”, but a militarized immigration enforcement agency isn’t.

[League Circles]

Both parties are so absolutely full of **** IMO regarding spending and taxes. Absolute fantasy world. Last time I checked we borrow something like 1/3 of the federal budget. NO ONE is advocating that we reduce spending by 1/3 while keeping taxes the same, nor that we increase taxes by 50% on the other hand. And then there is the whole problem of not being able to predict tax receipts (especially under continual changes) or being willing to wait to see how much money comes in before allocating it.

It's all a massive lie to fool the masses into borrowing money from the rich to buy goods and services that aren't affordable.

I don't really have a horse in the race. I'd be fine with either extreme I referenced, but we basically have a political system where politicians in both parties pander to the rich and to the poor masses. If you want to reduce economic inequality, you have to stop borrowing so much from the rich IMO. There is no other way. But politicians are weak fools, terrified to tell anyone things they don't want to hear.

The problem isn't rich people investing in stocks. That's a good thing. Puts capital to work by directing human labor. The problem is rich people buying treasury bonds, and I mean that in a broad way (through direct and indirect channels). Slowing or ending that requires the masses to nominally reduce short term standards of living, which would also be great for the environment.

[Red8911]

"if we didn't do any testing, we would have very few cases" - donald trump

"so we have the best testing in the world. it could be the testing's, frankly, overrated? maybe it is overrated" - the "leader" of the free world

by the way, for those who don't recognize the obvious, we're nowhere close to the "best testing in the world". percentage of the population tested:

16 iceland/UAE
13 bahrain
9 luxembourg
8 lithuania
6 denmark/portugal/israel
5 kuwait/belgium/spain/ireland/estonis/qatar/italy/new zealand
4 russia/norway/australia/singapore/austria/switzerland/germany
3 UK/USA/slovenia/czechia/canada
2 finland/kazakhstan/slovakia/hong kong/france/azerbaijan/serbia/mayotte/turkey/peru/sweden/chile/djibouti/netherlands

1 romania/saudi arabia/poland/s korea/bosnia/herzegovina/hungary/croatia/armenia/oman/greece/panama/uzbekistan/n macedonia/kyrgyzstan/bulgaria/malaysia/iran/el salvador/s africa/cuba/ghana/moldova/ecuador

0 ukraine/dominican/thailand/iraq/colombia/brazil/tunisia/gabon/morocco/argentina/japan/philippines/pakistan/senegal/india/mexico/egypt/bangladesh/guinae/bolivia/indonesia/ivory coast/honduras/afghanistan/guatemala/algeria/nigeria

THAT is why we are having trouble responsibly re-opening our economy

Don’t you think the US has a lot more people than some of those countries?

it does?!

Going with percentage just makes no sense at all.

and you're exactly wrong once again. because, you see, there are differing population sizes. as you just mentioned IN YOUR LAST SENTENCE

this is why the concept of percentage exists - to compare different sample sizes. like, you know, the populations of different countries

what method would you use to judge how widespread testing is if not percentage?

How about the method of the OVERALL numbers lol. The US has tested more than 10 million people, more than all the other countries. Of course countries like Iceland who have a much lower population will have a higher percentage, they don’t have that many people. Iceland is first on this percentage list and they tested 56,000 people, you compare that to 10 plus million???

Once again the main stream media uses this population percentage bs just to say Trump is wrong. They won’t even mention the overall numbers because it doesn’t fit their agenda. Why is it so bad to say trump is right about something? Our people, our doctors are the ones who have done all the testing and they have done a great job. Anyone who needs a test will get one. Anything trump says though is flipped and he is always wrong according to the media, don’t believe everything they say or write.

[Red8911]

Exactly. We are talking about public safety during a generational pandemic. It's asinine and ridiculous to cite freedom of choice in a situation like this. It's the opposite of what Red8911 just said. The people who don't want to wear them are the ones who should stay home and not go out. You are literally putting others at risk if you don't comply with something so simple. Listening to these wackjobs spouting off these outrageous conspiracy theories about everything from "this is just liberals trying to get Trump out of office"... or "they are lying about the number of deaths and calling everyone who dies a Covid-19 related death". It's sickening, quite frankly. I got into it with a guy yesterday about this.... he was going on about how "they" are lying just to keep Trump from getting re-elected"... and "people die of all kinds of things, all the time"..... "the common flu kills more people".. blah, blah..

https://www.brighteon.com/8b28dffe-4baa-41f9-af80-0b0eaa682602

Please stop spreading this discredited BS.

You are dangerous.

Just an FYI for anyone who watched this "Plandemic" video.... this is a hoax and has been proven to be nothing but a trove of misinformation designed to prey on people who are vulnerable to wack-a-do conspiracy theories and the type of people who think Fox News is a real news channel. Believing this nonsense is not only dangerous to yourself but to others as well.

Red8911- I know you believe this crap but please do your own due diligence before you spread this crap around and believe and/or practice any of the bad ideas and misinformation in it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/05/plandemic-video-what-to-say-conspiracy/611464/

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/14/plandemic-movie-discredited-dr-doctor-judy-mikovits-how-debunked-conspiracy-theory-film-went-viral

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/5/12/21254184/how-plandemic-went-viral-facebook-youtube

https://www.wusa9.com/amp/article/news/verify/verify-the-plandemic-documentary-is-full-of-misinformation/507-95caed4e-7a95-4452-ba7f-98cd0442c9e9

First of all Fox News is the only news channel that is pro republican / Trump and of course that is not real news but CNN is real?
They do the same exact thing in favor of Democrats.If you don’t see that then idk what to tell you.

On the video I don’t agree with everything she says there but who’s to say which scientist is right or wrong? There’s a lot of theories going around and a lot of disinformation from all of them. Just a month ago for example they were telling us NOT to wear masks, that they don’t do anything for us and if anything the masks will cause us to get the virus. Then all of a sudden we all need to wear masks.

The things she was saying about wearing masks/staying inside and weakening the immune system could be true, how do you know it’s not? Or how the virus got out of the lab could also be true, again how can you say she’s wrong? They are still investigating how it started.