Melo #14- Can Melo Come Out and Play?

[CloudyFuture]

Ken Berger on The Score

- Not DRose personality to go out and beg other players to play with him To much pride Was important to be involved Shows Carmelo that he would want him there and welcomed there

- Everything he hears Carmelo and Phil Jackson have hit it off pretty well There is a misconception out there that they are not getting along to well due to Phil comments via the media Truth is they have hit it off Thinks Carmelo is a fantastic fit and perfect for the triangle offense Carmelo does have his options and hes exploring them Enjoying the process Sorta hints that lebron james is laying low so his friend can enjoy the process (IMO anyways)

- lebron is difficult to figure out this time around He has empowered his agent to handle all free agent issues Had a Nike trip planned around the World Cup final July 13th Going to be out there His future should be decided by then Its dangerous to make any assumption with what wade bosh and james are planning to do Important to note that he is not actively perusing teams though

- What he has heard is that Pau Gasol is more a fall back plan to Carmelo then an addition to for Bull The Bulls were already hard pressed to create a max slot for Carmelo What suprised him was that Taj Gibson was part of the process to land Carmelo He is a native nyer he is friendly with Carmelo In order for the Bulls to get Carmelo max money it was important for the Bulls to trade Gibson So they are asking Carmelo to take less than the max which in turn would leave no money for Gasol Thinks he has some left in the tank to be a good 2nd scorer OKC has 6.5 trade exception to use and it will be interesting to see how much they are willing to use cause if they go over 5.3 that pushes them into the tax They would like to work a S&T to land Gasol

- Nike involvement is an interesting situation A star like Carmelo can do just fine where ever he is at Thinks they would be happy if the client is happy and is winning cause winning brings more money Everyone thinks players like Carmelo and lebron can take less money cause they make it up in sponsors but last CBA the players took a 12% hit on total revenue Easy for fans to say take less but the players have already taken a pay cut via the CBA That said Carmelo is not just a Nike guy he is a Jordan brand guy What better city to be in than Chicago to promote that brand IF that was the ultimate deciding factor BUT doesnt think that it will be

[fleet]

If Melo says he is coming to the Bulls; the Knicks will engage in S&T discussions.

The Cavs and Raptors made the same declarations as well.

If a team can get an asset for a player who is leaving they will get an asset. You dont ever let something go without getting something in return.

Except for one key point- the Bulls don't have enough cap space to sign him outright. Phil can play the total dbag and refuse any S&T and that pretty much kills Melo to the Bulls. Cavs/Raptors had no leverage because Miami had cleared enough cap space to sign both. The Bulls cannot clear enough cap space- unless you think Melo is signing for $16M- unless they gut the team. And I don't see Melo coming to a Bulls team with a gutted roster.

Trade Taj (easily I might add). Capspace cleared. You are wrong.

thats simply not going to happen.

[BrooklynBulls]

There's no way the Bulls are trading Taj. I think it's stupid, but I just can't see a scenario where he's asked to come in and help "pitch" Melo and then turn around and trade him 1 week later. It's not happening, and we're not getting Melo. Yet another instance where this organization falls in love with a player and isn't willing to maximize their trade value.

I get that Taj is a NY guy and all but they didn't need to include him in their pitch. What they should have done is draft Payne (who will be better than Taj anyway), go into the meeting with Rose and Noah and offer Melo numerous scenarios where they keep Taj and offer up a S&T or dump Taj and sign Melo outright and go in with a Payne/Mirotic and possibly Gasol trio at PF.

Maybe it's just me but including Taj leads me to believe he isn't going anywhere (at least in a deal for Melo). As a result, their options are limited.

I don't think it's a case of us falling in love with our guy, I think it's a case where one of our major selling points is a complete roster. If we keep Taj and acquire Melo, we're going to assemble a real roster capable of competing now. I don't care what you think of Payne, he's not going to be a reliable starter in year 1. We need a real PF in order to contend with the likes of the Pacers, Miami, Spurs, OKC. And Taj is that guy. If we get rid of him, what makes us more attractive than Dallas or the Rockets? I think the Rockets are also major threats because of how complete their roster would look with Melo.

[r1terrell23]

Taj Gibson in no should should prevent us from getting Anthony. He is no Karl Malone. We could have Anthony and find another solid PF and ask them to paycut.

[nykgeneralmanager]

The Knicks will engage in a S&T for Dunleavy, Randolph the non-guaranteeds for the Sac Pick and our 2015 1st pick. Thats $5.5mm in salary for 1 guaranteed 1st rd pick and 1 potential 1st rd pick. IF the Knicks wont engage a 3rd team would love to take on those 2 contracts for those two picks.

You don't know that. Phil could refuse any S&T for Melo, dare him to walk to Houston, Dallas, or LA, and dangle $129M in front of him and see who budges first.

The idea that New York has no leverage is laughable.

He would almost certainly damage his credibility with other free agents if he is too aggressive with a hardline stance here. FA's are not going to want to play for a GM like that. Moreover, he will need to proceed with caution for one other reason: Even if they are able to re-sign melo, he will be in the same position next year as the Lakers, Mavs, etc are this year: Unable to match the guaranteed dollar amount of the "home teams" for Durant, Love et. al., but wanting to sign them because of "culture, opportunity to win, etc". He has plenty to lose besides just Melo if he doesn't handle this right.

I've seen a lot of people saying this, but I'm not sure it's the case. There is no case of that ever happening before. Even if some people don't like it, I'm sure they can understand it from a basketball perspective. It wouldn't be Phil Jackson's job to help Melo land a big contract with the Bulls, it's the Bulls job to create the cap space/offer an attractive S&T. I understand that it may not please people if Phil did make that threat (which I don't think he would really NOT S&T, he would just not budge on his demands of what he'd want in return). However, if Phil is sitting with a free agent in a year or two, offering big bucks and being very convincing as we know he is, I don't think any free agent is going to care that he played hardball in a S&T for Melo.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I'm certain it has done before, but could anybody outline the capspace and exception situation if we were to A- Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy for nothing back, versus B- Trade Boozer and Dunleavy for nothing back?

Is it at all possible to Amnesty Boozer, trade Dunleavy, give Melo 18+ in an S&T if we include unguaranteeds, Butler, Snell, Randolph, etc? And if so, what exceptions would then be available to us, if any?

If the Bulls trade/amnesty everyone but Rose/Noah/Taj/Dougie and renounce all exceptions they will have approx 18 million in cap space to sign Melo. They would only have the RMLE (2.7 million) available to use.

If we amnesty Boozer and then trade MDJ, non-guaranteed, Butler, Snell, Randolph etc we are essentially doing the same thing as trading those players away - because we would stil have to fit Melo underneath the 63.2 million dollar cap (plus 100k). In this situation, because we are not sending out enough salary to match Melos incoming we have to use available cap space to make up the difference. This would require us to renounce all exception except the RMLE.

[coldfish]

IMO, a lot of Bulls fans are being ridiculous. The Knicks have absolutely no need for Boozer on the court. I haven't done the match since the Chandler deal but taking on Boozer is going to cost the Knicks $30 to $40M in salary and taxes. That's a huge amount of coin even for NY.

The Bulls are going to have to feel some pain on a S&T. If that means giving a 3rd team some good stuff or giving a lot to NY, I don't know.

There aren't many people around to discuss this with but you seem rational. What is NY's opinion or value of Butler? Would he be considered a good asset or just filler?

No its not. NY is at 59 million in salary right now. Taking on Boozer doesn't even put them into the tax (yet). Assuming CHicago would be willing to take back a couple less favorable NY players (Pablo Pringles & someone else) and the Knicks will be under the tax.

Like I said, I haven't done the math, even though it got auto corrected to "match". I'll take a quick stab at it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html

That site has them at $65M right now. Taking on Boozer would put them at 82M. Just rough math:
$7M over the tax = 2.5 * $5M + 2.75 * $2M = $18M.

$18M tax + $17M salary = $35M total cash cost to the Knicks.

What do I have wrong?

[BR0D1E86]

I have no knowledge of what happened. If I was Chicago, I wouldn't even talk money with Melo which is what was reported. I would just leave it vague and tell him "if you come here, we think you are extremely valuable and we will do our best to take care of you. We will work out the details with your business guys."

i would then float all the different financial situations past his accountant business guy and his agent. That's their job.

So unless someone has direct access to Gar Forman or Leon Rose's cell phones, they don't know squat.

Just my opinion.

Sauces 'fish. Sauces.

[BrooklynBulls]

You don't know that. Phil could refuse any S&T for Melo, dare him to walk to Houston, Dallas, or LA, and dangle $129M in front of him and see who budges first.

The idea that New York has no leverage is laughable.

He would almost certainly damage his credibility with other free agents if he is too aggressive with a hardline stance here. FA's are not going to want to play for a GM like that. Moreover, he will need to proceed with caution for one other reason: Even if they are able to re-sign melo, he will be in the same position next year as the Lakers, Mavs, etc are this year: Unable to match the guaranteed dollar amount of the "home teams" for Durant, Love et. al., but wanting to sign them because of "culture, opportunity to win, etc". He has plenty to lose besides just Melo if he doesn't handle this right.

I've seen a lot of people saying this, but I'm not sure it's the case. There is no case of that ever happening before. Even if some people don't like it, I'm sure they can understand it from a basketball perspective. It wouldn't be Phil Jackson's job to help Melo land a big contract with the Bulls, it's the Bulls job to create the cap space/offer an attractive S&T. I understand that it may not please people if Phil did make that threat (which I don't think he would really NOT S&T, he would just not budge on his demands of what he'd want in return). However, if Phil is sitting with a free agent in a year or two, offering big bucks and being very convincing as we know he is, I don't think any free agent is going to care that he played hardball in a S&T for Melo.

I think you're right. Nobody is mad that Orlando wanted a good return for Howard. And they got it.

All that matters is how real the threat of Melo signing for 16m or whatever is, how much the Bulls are willing to give up in order to pay Melo more, and what the Knicks are willing to accept in an S&T (which depends on how realistic it is that Melo signs for 16m).

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that NY doesn't want to play ball, Melo chooses Chicago and only Chicago, and ends up leaving just for the 16m contract with a 3rd year opt-out (at which point he'll receive his max contract). It would be very similar with what happened in Miami, except they managed to get the S&T done. But they still took less money with the understanding of that being what it took. Ditto the Spurs stars.

[Bankshot]

If we don't get Carmelo why invest any money at all this year? Keep Booze Cruze and roll with the new additions of Rose, McBuckets and maybe Mirotic. If Rose comes back and recovers this year it will put us in a great position next year although I am not sure who the Free agents are next year besides Love? If Rose fails (Gets hurt or has some other issues) we need to know this moving forward. I want Melo too but really I don't get all the panic? We can win the East if Rose comes back healthy with some of the new additions and don't have to add any or much salary and still keep options open (Love next year).

Dave

[jsully84]

that story about his kid being picked on at school breaks my heart

How many childhoods have the Knicks destroyed over the years due to their suckiness, damn awful franchise

Link?

[kurtatx]

If we don't get Carmelo why invest any money at all this year? Keep Booze Cruze and roll with the new additions of Rose, McBuckets and maybe Mirotic. If Rose comes back and recovers this year it will put us in a great position next year although I am not sure who the Free agents are next year besides Love? If Rose fails (Gets hurt or has some other issues) we need to know this moving forward. I want Melo too but really I don't get all the panic? We can win the East if Rose comes back healthy with some of the new additions and don't have to add any or much salary and still keep options open (Love next year).

Dave

Probably why the Bulls are looking at Pau. There's nothing I would want the Bulls to overpay for.

[davhern]

I think you're right. Nobody is mad that Orlando wanted a good return for Howard. And they got it.

Howard wasn't a free agent. Am I missing something?

[davhern]

that story about his kid being picked on at school breaks my heart

How many childhoods have the Knicks destroyed over the years due to their suckiness, damn awful franchise

Link?

Was just an excerpt from LaLa's book where she says one day their kid came home from school asking why the other kids say his daddy sucks.

[ingvald]

Do you really want to offer that kind of contract to a guy that doesn't want to play for you and you have essentially held hostage?

It doesnt matter what I want. It only matters what Phil is willing to do to build a winner.

You was referring to Jackson. Now answer question instead of being a smart ass. You knew exactly what I meant. You had no problem knowing that Jackson will squeeze Paxson's nuts for every asset so you clearly have an idea about what he is willing to do.

wtf, man. I'm not being a smart ass. I answered the question as you wrote it. As a follow up, I'm not going to pretend I know what Phil values and what Phil's going to do. What difference does it make anyway?

"Golly gee, I think Phil will be happy to let Melo walk for a 2nd round pick Mike James"

Get 'er done, GarPax! whoo hoo!!

Does that make you happy?

As to Phil squeezing Pax's nuts- its his JOB to make the Knicks better. He should do everything he can to get every asset possible if Melo walks. The only way to do that is a S&T with Chicago. Other than that, I don't know what he'll ask for and I don't know what he'll get. But any savvy negotiator will do whatever they can to get as much as they can. That's what Phil was hired to do.

[BrooklynBulls]

I think you're right. Nobody is mad that Orlando wanted a good return for Howard. And they got it.

Howard wasn't a free agent. Am I missing something?

The point is that nobody carries a grudge when you dont want to let a star player do exactly as he pleases.

[coldfish]

Taj Gibson in no should should prevent us from getting Anthony. He is no Karl Malone. We could have Anthony and find another solid PF and ask them to paycut.

Just to note, if you go the capspace route, its not just Gibson.

As someone posted above me, the Bulls entire pitch is based around Melo to walk onto a title contender. Its a stretch to believe that a Bulls team with $22M in capspace is a contender. You literally have no PF on the roster. Some rookie or vet min guy isn't going to change the impression that it isn't a contender.

As such, going the full capspace route may give Melo more money but it takes away a lot of the reason for him accepting that money. If he is going to have to wait a year (and worry about if Rose is fully healthy), why not take the extra money and go back to NY, suck for a year and then hope that Phil can turn their capspace into gold?

[genbar]

I HAVE TRIED ALL OF THESE!

Sauces 'fish. Sauces.

[Sonny_D1]

There's no way the Bulls are trading Taj. I think it's stupid, but I just can't see a scenario where he's asked to come in and help "pitch" Melo and then turn around and trade him 1 week later. It's not happening, and we're not getting Melo. Yet another instance where this organization falls in love with a player and isn't willing to maximize their trade value.

I get that Taj is a NY guy and all but they didn't need to include him in their pitch. What they should have done is draft Payne (who will be better than Taj anyway), go into the meeting with Rose and Noah and offer Melo numerous scenarios where they keep Taj and offer up a S&T or dump Taj and sign Melo outright and go in with a Payne/Mirotic and possibly Gasol trio at PF.

Maybe it's just me but including Taj leads me to believe he isn't going anywhere (at least in a deal for Melo). As a result, their options are limited.

I don't think it's a case of us falling in love with our guy, I think it's a case where one of our major selling points is a complete roster. If we keep Taj and acquire Melo, we're going to assemble a real roster capable of competing now. I don't care what you think of Payne, he's not going to be a reliable starter in year 1. We need a real PF in order to contend with the likes of the Pacers, Miami, Spurs, OKC. And Taj is that guy. If we get rid of him, what makes us more attractive than Dallas or the Rockets? I think the Rockets are also major threats because of how complete their roster would look with Melo.

Here's the thing. If you really want a guy you have to be prepared with every possible scenario. You can still pitch the "complete" roster as the ideal plan but also a plan that's pretty darn close if we have to give him the max.

Because the way I see it, the only way to have a "complete" roster is for Melo to take $16-$18m. Now People are already talking about dumping Taj to have a chance here. So what have we really accomplished?

I just think you give yourself a better chance and more options not including Taj in the pitch. Now you've pretty much backed yourself in a corner where you're forced to keep Taj because your main selling point was a "complete" roster. Besides, the selling point should always be a big 3 with a stable of solid role players. The Bulls tried to turn this into a Big 3.75 and it's going to backfire in the end.

[inescape]

I think our best chance is to offer an ETO after the 3rd year and promise him the super max for the next 5 if he accepts less now. Yeah it is illegal and yeah it will hurt the last 2 years of that deal but that essentially gives Melo all his money and lets us win now. What other play do we have?