Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Shill]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

Amazing defense:




And that basketball IQ, doe...

http://deadspin.com/andrea-bargnani-takes-one-of-the-stupidest-shots-in-nba-1486213056

[Proven_Winner]

I think Nikola is very different from Bargs. Nikola may not be a good defender but he's very active and he plays like he actually wants to be on the floor. He's also pretty smart and seems like a guy who actually wants to work and get better. I believe in Nikola because of Gar/Pax they wouldn't grab a guy if he was anything like Bargs and they absolutely love guys who work hard and they've been waiting for him for about 3 years so he will be fine.

[Proven_Winner]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

Amazing defense:




And that basketball IQ, doe...

http://deadspin.com/andrea-bargnani-takes-one-of-the-stupidest-shots-in-nba-1486213056

I love how he stops mid play to blame JR who did his job on defense.

[Mbrahv0528]

Who on earth is comparing Bargs to Mirotic? ? Such a lazy ass comparison. The two are nothing alike, save for the shooting aspect. .and being foreign. Reminds me of all the people on this board comparing Doug to any white person they could think of on draft day.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[League Circles]

I see Taj more as insurance against Noah getting injured or traded than I do against Mirotic being less than expected. It seems that Noah finally having a pretty healthy year (which required surgery following it!) has made people forget just how much of a health risk Noah is and how without him and Taj our defense wouldn't be very good at all when it mattered.

[Jcool0]

As someone who knows just about as much as anyone on this site what Thibodeau asks of his PF's, I have watched a fair amount of Mirotic and don't think he has it in him to play for Thibs at a high level. Maybe I am wrong and with some weight training and lots of work under Thibs he can turn it around. I hope so but I see Taj as an insurance policy against what I see as a rather likely scenario: Mirotic is just a better shooting Bargnani.

The next discussion is going to be someone saying that a better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I disagree on that.

I am pretty sure if Mirotic had a Bargnani like season of 18 ppg 5-6 rebounds per and 1.5 three per game everyone would be jumping for joy.

A better shooting Bargnani is a pretty good player. I'd take that. Didn't he average 20-21 ppg for a year or two?

Frankly, I don't see the comparison. Mirotic seems like a high energy player in the videos I've seen of him. He's always the first man down the court in transition, and seems to work hard on defense more often than not. Bargnani quickly developed a reputation for being lazy and not much of a hard worker. I don't get that with Mirotic.

He aveaged 21.8 points during the 2010-2011 season and 19.5 ppg during the 2011-2012 season. 07-08 averaged 10.8 ppg, 08-09 averaged 15.4 ppg and 09-10 averaged 17.2 ppg. So he was a good scorer just doesn't seem like he did much else.

[coldfish]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

I just have to note that the one thing that really struck me about Mirotic in the games I saw was his poor motor. Its not a lazy analysis at all. Mirotic has very poor defensive instincts and for the most part, just hangs around the perimeter on offense. His athletic numbers look awful to me. Slow footed and poor vertical. If anything, Bargnani looks to be the quicker of the two.

Maybe what I saw was all scheme and I might buy that for some of the issues, but you can't fake the slow footedness and low vertical that I saw.

To be honest, your description of Bargnani matched what I saw in Mirotic for the most part.

[Shill]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

I just have to note that the one thing that really struck me about Mirotic in the games I saw was his poor motor. Its not a lazy analysis at all. Mirotic has very poor defensive instincts and for the most part, just hangs around the perimeter on offense. His athletic numbers look awful to me. Slow footed and poor vertical. If anything, Bargnani looks to be the quicker of the two.

Maybe what I saw was all scheme and I might buy that for some of the issues, but you can't fake the slow footedness and low vertical that I saw.

To be honest, your description of Bargnani matched what I saw in Mirotic for the most part.

Interesting.

The scouting on him seems to contradict almost everything you said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaHc9Vp9wU[/youtube]


Not saying you're wrong, but perhaps you saw a couple outlier games. We were getting top 10 pick offers for him in a strong draft, and European scouting has come a long, long way.

[coldfish]

Interesting.

The scouting on him seems to contradict almost everything you said.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaHc9Vp9wU[/youtube]


Not saying you're wrong, but perhaps you saw a couple outlier games. We were getting top 10 pick offers for him in a strong draft, and European scouting has come a long, long way.

That's possible. Everyone has a bad game or two. Maybe that's what I caught.

[Ice the knees]

One of Bargnani's problems was that he was only a shooter. He doesn't/didn't have the ball skills or post skill that Mirotic already has.

Add in the 'aggression/intensity' Mirotic displays on the court and these two aren't similar at all as prospects.

It's not surprising at this point just how underrated a prospect Nikola has become on this board.

Let's also not forget that Bargnani has zero motor, poor basketball IQ and lacks serious intangibles on both sides of the ball. I don't even see how the two are comparable aside from the lazy link that they're two tall PF's who can shoot threes.

Mirotic will do fine under Thibs.

I just have to note that the one thing that really struck me about Mirotic in the games I saw was his poor motor. Its not a lazy analysis at all. Mirotic has very poor defensive instincts and for the most part, just hangs around the perimeter on offense. His athletic numbers look awful to me. Slow footed and poor vertical. If anything, Bargnani looks to be the quicker of the two.

Maybe what I saw was all scheme and I might buy that for some of the issues, but you can't fake the slow footedness and low vertical that I saw.

To be honest, your description of Bargnani matched what I saw in Mirotic for the most part.

Low motor? With mirotic I see a player that sprints the floor. I actually was most impressed with his ability to get out and hustle even if he looks like he's stuck in sand. Don't agree with the low motor thing. I actually am comfortable arguing the exact opposite. He seems to play very hard and like Doug had the ability to slow the game down for himself

[Rerisen]

Waiters: He has had a PER of 13.7 and 14.0. TS% of 49.2% and 50.8%. He is a known headcase. As he plays now, you don't want him on your team.

He does have some skills that might be able to get polished into a productive NBA player but as a Tyrus Thomas type headcase, you have to strongly question if that is going to happen.

Can people see why some posters aren't too enthralled about trading for him?

Right now Waiters is like a poor man's version of Lance Stephenson. You get the attitude problems but none of the helpful team playmaking (rather more selfish attitude on offense actually) nor the high efficiency scoring.

For me, I'd far rather have had Stehpenson and Taj than Waiters and Gasol.

But Waiters is 22, so you'd have to bet on that he would make that same next progression that Stephenson made his last season at 23. I think that's a dubious thing to count on, a gamble, when the team is already in a gamble position with McDermott and Mirotic this year, to provide the needed offense.

[NecessaryEvil]

This is not your typical rookie. Though he must adjust to the pace of the NBA game and rigors of an 82-game season, not to mention learn a system and opponents, Mirotic, 23, has a wealth of big-game experience in Euroleague competition with Real Madrid.

"To me, it's similar in some ways to Omer (Asik)," Thibodeau said. "Omer was not your typical rookie either. He had been in a lot of big international games. "Nikola will have to get used to the speed and strength of the NBA game. There are different rules. There will be an adjustment there. What I'm anticipating is he will get better as the season goes along."

Thibodeau said Mirotic's defensive issues were overstated, citing his "good body position" against power forwards. General manager Gar Forman believes Mirotic's shooting can provide floor spacing and singled out his "high basketball IQ and good motor.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ba ... 9210.story



Niko's gonna be good. Give us Waiters.

[DRoseCantStop]

Do not want Waiters.

[Mech Engineer]

I see Taj more as insurance against Noah getting injured or traded than I do against Mirotic being less than expected. It seems that Noah finally having a pretty healthy year (which required surgery following it!) has made people forget just how much of a health risk Noah is and how without him and Taj our defense wouldn't be very good at all when it mattered.

It is just pure suicide for the Bulls to trade Taj when you have Noah and Gasol as your Centers/experienced big men. Both of them are injury prone and not having an insurance policy is going to kill the Bulls. It is one thing to trade Taj for getting Love on the Bulls but trading Taj for crap like Waiters/Martin is not even balancing. The Bulls are going to get players who are mediocre at other positions just for balancing the roster on paper.

The Bulls are not going to win anything with 2 or 3 rookie types/mediocre players at the wing positions. They need to overwhelm using the front-court.

Right now, Mirotic is an unknown for a minimum of a year including the post-season. The Bulls are already getting 4 to 5 new players into the rotation(Gasol, McDermott, Mirotic, Derrick, Brooks). It is a lot of people to plug-in into the rotation. Getting a low IQ/non-winning player like Waiters or another weakling like Martin is killing more continuity.

If the Bulls are rebuilding with a shot creating SG to balance out the roster, they better trade for somebody more talented like Klay Thompson in the future/draft someone else or look for a trade rather than losing more talent like Taj for mediocre talent like Waiters. Taj's value is definitely more than Waiters/Martin type guys and it is a panic move to lose Taj for those guys.

[NecessaryEvil]

Just 22 years old, drafted 4th two years ago. Give me the kid with the upside that wants to be a starting 2 guard in the L with the skills to do that and more.

Aug 23 can't get here soon enough...

[kurtatx]

I see Taj more as insurance against Noah getting injured or traded than I do against Mirotic being less than expected. It seems that Noah finally having a pretty healthy year (which required surgery following it!) has made people forget just how much of a health risk Noah is and how without him and Taj our defense wouldn't be very good at all when it mattered.

It is just pure suicide for the Bulls to trade Taj when you have Noah and Gasol as your Centers/experienced big men. Both of them are injury prone and not having an insurance policy is going to kill the Bulls. It is one thing to trade Taj for getting Love on the Bulls but trading Taj for crap like Waiters/Martin is not even balancing. The Bulls are going to get players who are mediocre at other positions just for balancing the roster on paper.

The Bulls are not going to win anything with 2 or 3 rookie types/mediocre players at the wing positions. They need to overwhelm using the front-court.

Right now, Mirotic is an unknown for a minimum of a year including the post-season. The Bulls are already getting 4 to 5 new players into the rotation(Gasol, McDermott, Mirotic, Derrick, Brooks). It is a lot of people to plug-in into the rotation. Getting a low IQ/non-winning player like Waiters or another weakling like Martin is killing more continuity.

If the Bulls are rebuilding with a shot creating SG to balance out the roster, they better trade for somebody more talented like Klay Thompson in the future/draft someone else or look for a trade rather than losing more talent like Taj for mediocre talent like Waiters. Taj's value is definitely more than Waiters/Martin type guys and it is a panic move to lose Taj for those guys.

You run a big risk when you go the "insurance" route. Insurance costs you quality of the starting five. Add Kevin Love, let players rest in the weak east, and you are unlikely to have to worry about injuries.

Honestly, though, we have to get past this constant fear of injuries. You can't have a complete contingency plan at every position in this league and expect to be any good. You just can't. We have two at the 4/5. Move Taj for a better starting five.

[NecessaryEvil]

If the Bulls are rebuilding with a shot creating SG to balance out the roster, they better trade for somebody more talented like Klay Thompson in the future/draft someone else or look for a trade rather than losing more talent like Taj for mediocre talent like Waiters. Taj's value is definitely more than Waiters/Martin type guys and it is a panic move to lose Taj for those guys.

If you think Taj can nab you a Klay Thompson type player, then nothing else more needs to be said.

If Taj was giving you the chance to get a better SG than Waiters or Martin, I'm quite positive we would of heard about it by now. He just had his best season in the L. Where are the offers?

Nobody's giving up Beal, Thompson, Oladipo, etc. like talents for a 29 year old BACKUP pf.

I think you guys are getting his true value twisted. Hell a good majority didn't even want to move him from Aaron Afflalo.

Just say you don't want to trade him REGARDLESS of the offer lol. I'd rather hear that than more of this non-sense about his actual value, which apparently isn't very high at all.

[kurtatx]

If the Bulls are rebuilding with a shot creating SG to balance out the roster, they better trade for somebody more talented like Klay Thompson in the future/draft someone else or look for a trade rather than losing more talent like Taj for mediocre talent like Waiters. Taj's value is definitely more than Waiters/Martin type guys and it is a panic move to lose Taj for those guys.

If you think Taj can nab you a Klay Thompson type player, then nothing else more needs to be said.

If Taj was giving you the chance to get a better SG than Waiters or Martin, I'm quite positive we would of heard about it by now. He just had his best season in the L. Where are the offers?

Nobody's giving up Beal, Thompson, Oladipo, etc. like talents for a 29 year old BACKUP pf.

I think you guys are getting his true value twisted.

Just say you don't want to trade him REGARDLESS of the offer lol. I'd rather hear that than more of this non-sense about his actual value, which apparently isn't very high at all.

I hope you are wrong, but I know you're not. Taj is a 29 year old "guy" at this point. His value diminishes every second he is not moved. I only hope we aren't too late.

[Mech Engineer]

I see Taj more as insurance against Noah getting injured or traded than I do against Mirotic being less than expected. It seems that Noah finally having a pretty healthy year (which required surgery following it!) has made people forget just how much of a health risk Noah is and how without him and Taj our defense wouldn't be very good at all when it mattered.

It is just pure suicide for the Bulls to trade Taj when you have Noah and Gasol as your Centers/experienced big men. Both of them are injury prone and not having an insurance policy is going to kill the Bulls. It is one thing to trade Taj for getting Love on the Bulls but trading Taj for crap like Waiters/Martin is not even balancing. The Bulls are going to get players who are mediocre at other positions just for balancing the roster on paper.

The Bulls are not going to win anything with 2 or 3 rookie types/mediocre players at the wing positions. They need to overwhelm using the front-court.

Right now, Mirotic is an unknown for a minimum of a year including the post-season. The Bulls are already getting 4 to 5 new players into the rotation(Gasol, McDermott, Mirotic, Derrick, Brooks). It is a lot of people to plug-in into the rotation. Getting a low IQ/non-winning player like Waiters or another weakling like Martin is killing more continuity.

If the Bulls are rebuilding with a shot creating SG to balance out the roster, they better trade for somebody more talented like Klay Thompson in the future/draft someone else or look for a trade rather than losing more talent like Taj for mediocre talent like Waiters. Taj's value is definitely more than Waiters/Martin type guys and it is a panic move to lose Taj for those guys.

You run a big risk when you go the "insurance" route. Insurance costs you quality of the starting five. Add Kevin Love, let players rest in the weak east, and you are unlikely to have to worry about injuries.

Honestly, though, we have to get past this constant fear of injuries. You can't have a complete contingency plan at every position in this league and expect to be any good. You just can't. We have two at the 4/5. Move Taj for a better starting five.

That's a great bold statement to make. But, it is the reality of the Bulls. The Bulls have lost 3 to 4 years of contention due to injuries. And, Joakim has been one of the main guys who has been regularly injured. You cannot deny that and say it is living in fear. And, Gasol is an 1 to 2 year stop-gap. Noah is older, has more mileage and although he has improved his game, it is not realistic to trust him to be healthy if he plays big minutes. All this great starting five is on paper. If you find a top 20 player, that is all great to plug-in.

The big picture of the Bulls is they have lost too much talent/depth due to injuries, chasing for Melo, Boozer/Deng's cap killing contracts. They just refilled their roster to resemble a decent team. You lose more talent to get mediocre guys and then you are back to the same position as the last few years.

[NecessaryEvil]

I hope you are wrong, but I know you're not. Taj is a 29 year old "guy" at this point. His value diminishes every second he is not moved. I only hope we aren't too late.

Did the same thing with Deng and literally got nothing for him.