OT- The Last Dance documentary

[bledredwine]

If you watched the episode he says that his mind wasn't there because it was on his dad. Not sure if true or not but MJ wasn't one to make excuses.

MJ is making **** up there. his mind didn't suddenly switch to his father at the same time that payton took on guarding him in game 4 in seattle. game 6 in chicago was father's day. and suggesting that he was thinking about his father during games and it caused him to play poorly...in the finals...doesn't make sense either

We can’t say if he’s making things up or not.

I will say this- if this Payton quote happened in the midst of the series, it would have looked very very bad for Gary afterwards.

Let’s also not forget that Jordan lair the clamp down, holding Payton to 1 point (and I forget if it was two or no assists) in the second half of a vital game later in the series.

Payton was DPOY, and an amazing defender.. I give him respect for that series, but Jordan was also going through a lot. Just look at his reaction after winning that chip compared to the prior two.

We can’t say how much of Jordan’s play was merely Payton vs himself. But I’ll tell you this- I would never bet on Payton as being consistently able to slow down to Jordan. If he could, that finals wouldn’t be the only time we hear about Payton’s defense on MJ.

[Red8911]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

[jc23]

That 94 team was really good, i forgot they had 3 all stars that year along with the guys they signed. Not to take anything away from New York and Houston but Chicago wins that year if MJ is playing. Now the next year with Grant leaving i doubt it.

[Shill]

I'm kind of shocked by how much praise this is getting. It's a great subject and a trove of footage, but I think a bunch of us could have put it together better. Why for example do they start with Krause getting all defensive about backstabbing and then not return to it in that episode or the next? Just poor story telling.

The point of that was to show the intensity of the playoffs beginning.

As for the backstabbing, that was the narrative that had been building because of how determined Krause was to break up the dynasty.

Within the context of the series, I thought that sequence was fine.

My only nitpick was glossing over the murderers of James Jordan. Perhaps they didn’t want to give them notoriety or have crazed fans harass their family, but they left it as some bizarre crime that was never explained.

[jc23]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

I was lucky enough to be at that game so if so i appreciate it. Probably not tho.

[Shill]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

I’ve always heard that theory, and I don’t buy it.

Throwing TWO games in the NBA finals would be madness.

No way they would screw around like that.

[troza]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

Doubt it. If I'm not mistaken (just by looking at the final score), the Bulls didn't get anything going their way. They played terribly.

And as someone said after: it was two games in a row.

That Seatle team is a bit underrated. 64 wins, Gary Payton and Kemp at excelent level, good shooters around them, good defense... it is just too bad that they couldn't get out of the Western Conference more than once in that decade, and right at the time they were about to face a 72 wins Bulls (that, unlike the 73 win Warriors, put all the pressure on themselfs saying that it didn't mean a thing without the ring).

That 94 team was really good, i forgot they had 3 all stars that year along with the guys they signed. Not to take anything away from New York and Houston but Chicago wins that year if MJ is playing. Now the next year with Grant leaving i doubt it.

Would Grant leave if the Bulls were champions?

For what I've read here, he left because of money... But would someone leave if the middle of a super dynasty?

And funny what if... What if Jordan didn't retire... could those 94 Bulls be the 72 win team? I doubt it but that's the year we got Longley, Kukoc and Kerr. And the best years of Pippen and Grant. Still... Armstrong in the point guard seems a level down from Ron Harper and we would have less rebounding and more scoring on the PF position.

[Jimako10]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

I’ve always heard that theory, and I don’t buy it.

Throwing TWO games in the NBA finals would be madness.

No way they would screw around like that.

They didn't throw it, but they took their foot off the gas after going up 3-0. They knew they had the title in the bag, so they lost some of their edge when they traveled to Seattle when it was more of a chore to finish the series. Seattle made some adjustments and were motivated to not get swept in the finals, though everyone expected it. Jordan actually had a good game 5, it was Pippen who stunk it up with a 5 for 20 shooting line, and a little Kerr who was 1 for 7 from deep.

[logical_art]

In the 12 head to head games regular vs GP prior to his second comeback, MJ averaged 32 points per game on 48.6% shooting and 9.3 FTAs per game.

He only shot 5/28 on threes in those games vs GP which suppressed his efficiency a little but other than it doesn't look like GP slowed him down.

[troza]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

I’ve always heard that theory, and I don’t buy it.

Throwing TWO games in the NBA finals would be madness.

No way they would screw around like that.

They didn't throw it, but they took their foot off the gas after going up 3-0. They knew they had the title in the bag, so they lost some of their edge when they traveled to Seattle when it was more of a chore to finish the series. Seattle made some adjustments and were motivated to not get swept in the finals, though everyone expected it. Jordan actually had a good game 5, it was Pippen who stunk it up with a 5 for 20 shooting line, and a little Kerr who was 1 for 7 from deep.

Tooking their foot off the gas was never a thing for the Bulls but it is more logical than giving games away.

Still... there are better reasons:
- The injury of Ron Harper messing up our ability to defend while we were not having good games on offense (game 3 we did have a good offensive game so we didn't miss Ron Harper);
- Seatle was better than people give them credit. Playing at home, being a very good team with good players that didn't quit with the ability to defend well and with some matchup advantages vs us and it seems that they finally got some adjustments right;
- The fact that the 72 win Bulls and the 73 win Warriors didn't play as expected in the finals of those seasons, maybe the fatigue was a factor? The pressure? I don't know but we might see if another team goes for the record again.

[MrSparkle]

Anyone think the Bulls threw game 4 against Seattle in order to finish them off at home on Father’s Day?

I’ve always heard that theory, and I don’t buy it.

Throwing TWO games in the NBA finals would be madness.

No way they would screw around like that.

They didn't throw it, but they took their foot off the gas after going up 3-0. They knew they had the title in the bag, so they lost some of their edge when they traveled to Seattle when it was more of a chore to finish the series. Seattle made some adjustments and were motivated to not get swept in the finals, though everyone expected it. Jordan actually had a good game 5, it was Pippen who stunk it up with a 5 for 20 shooting line, and a little Kerr who was 1 for 7 from deep.

Makes sense to me.

[Red8911]

I’m glad they talked about that whole theory that MJ retired because of a gambling suspension. This has been going around for a while now and anti Jordan/ lebron fans actually believe it. I’m glad they shut down that rumor. As one guy in the documentary stated, there’s no way they suspend the greatest player in sports. That was the last thing the NBA wanted for MJ to retire during his prime.

[nas27]

I thought the ending of episode 7 was probably the most impactful moment of the entire series thus far. The dichotomy of being a leader and pushing his teammates but yet not being beloved by them due to the way he did it. That was incredibly interesting, especially that it seemed to really affect Jordan. You wouldn't necessarily expect him to care what they thought, but yet he did.

[Licensed to Il]

I find it charming that Gary Payton brags about how well he guarded Jordan after losing to him in the finals. And that Jordan laughs out loud at the notion that anyone guarded him well, despite statistical evidence that Payton did impact MJ’s efficiency. Two alphas will never agree. Obviously one of those “alphas” is capitalized and one is lower case.

[logical_art]

I find it charming that Gary Payton brags about how well he guarded Jordan after losing to him in the finals. And that Jordan laughs out loud at the notion that anyone guarded him well, despite statistical evidence that Payton did impact MJ’s efficiency. Two alphas will never agree. Obviously one of those “alphas” is capitalized and one is lower case.

Look at the career h2h numbers above. Jordan scored 32 points per game vs GP on 49% shooting.

[nitetrain8603]

In fairness, Jordan's points and efficiency went way down when Payton guarded him the last 3 games of the series, so he wasn't exactly wrong with his assessment.

If you watched the episode he says that his mind wasn't there because it was on his dad. Not sure if true or not but MJ wasn't one to make excuses.

MJ is making **** up there. his mind didn't suddenly switch to his father at the same time that payton took on guarding him in game 4 in seattle. game 6 in chicago was father's day. and suggesting that he was thinking about his father during games and it caused him to play poorly...in the finals...doesn't make sense either

I disagree. I think it was moreso, I'm about to accomplish this, but my dad isn't here. My dad's always been here with me for when I won.

[Big Pippen]

Ep 7-8 Thoughts:

- Still loving the old footage and current interviews, the doc has done a good job recapturing the aura and dominance of the dynasty team
- Would pay good money to simply watch the space jam pickup game footage
- Still find the chronology and jumps annoying.. just want more of the 98 team to be honest
- Perdue nailed what MJ was like, with the quote about how he made them better players, by being an a hole
- MJ manufacturing a grudge/beef with BJ Armstrong, lol.. another interview revealed they had pancakes together, MJ gonna be MJ
- opening cut of testy Krause blowing up at Craig Saeger, what a drama queen. Also Krause’s comment on “all the kids in Europe fight over who gets #7” sigh... dude couldnt get out of his own way
- Pippen.. should have just said “sitting out vs NY was a mistake, I should not have done it, it just hurt my pride... no one would fault him for saying that
- I had zero anticipation this doc would reveal anything I didnt know, but it is helping me understand Jordan better
- Why is Ahmad Rashad ripped? Good for him

[nitetrain8603]

I thought the ending of episode 7 was probably the most impactful moment of the entire series thus far. The dichotomy of being a leader and pushing his teammates but yet not being beloved by them due to the way he did it. That was incredibly interesting, especially that it seemed to really affect Jordan. You wouldn't necessarily expect him to care what they thought, but yet he did.

Yeah, it's one of the few times, he breaks the "MJ aura" where nothing else matters, and you're not going to get him off his game. Seems like he was so driven to win and bring his teammates along with him, and they did. What was the cost though? I mean, damn near everyone called him an **** and implied he was awful to be around. I felt bad for him.

[HomoSapien]

Would Grant leave if the Bulls were champions?

For what I've read here, he left because of money... But would someone leave if the middle of a super dynasty?

And funny what if... What if Jordan didn't retire... could those 94 Bulls be the 72 win team? I doubt it but that's the year we got Longley, Kukoc and Kerr. And the best years of Pippen and Grant. Still... Armstrong in the point guard seems a level down from Ron Harper and we would have less rebounding and more scoring on the PF position.

Years ago I heard Grant say in an interview that if he knew Jordan was going to come back he never would have left. Who knows if that'd actually be the case, but like you said, very few people leave dynasty-level teams.

Mental fatigue aside, I think there'd be a good chance that 93-94 Bulls + Jordan would win 70 games. I mean, without Jordan they won 55 games and I think you can make a case that MJ is worth an additional 15 wins. That team was the perfect blend of the old dynasty guys but was rejuvenated a bit with guys like Kerr, Wennington, and Longley. Harper's definitely better defensively than BJ, but prime BJ Armstrong is a better overall player than 96 Harper. The depth on that team with Jordan would just be insane:

C. Cartwright/Longley/Perdue
PF.Grant/S.Williams/Wennington/Blount
SF.Pippen/Kukoc/Buechler
SG.Jordan/Myers?
PG.Armstrong/Kerr/Paxson

That team just seems so dangerous.

[logical_art]

Would Grant leave if the Bulls were champions?

For what I've read here, he left because of money... But would someone leave if the middle of a super dynasty?

And funny what if... What if Jordan didn't retire... could those 94 Bulls be the 72 win team? I doubt it but that's the year we got Longley, Kukoc and Kerr. And the best years of Pippen and Grant. Still... Armstrong in the point guard seems a level down from Ron Harper and we would have less rebounding and more scoring on the PF position.

Years ago I heard Grant say in an interview that if he knew Jordan was going to come back he never would have left. Who knows if that'd actually be the case, but like you said, very few people leave dynasty-level teams.

Mental fatigue aside, I think there'd be a good chance that 93-94 Bulls + Jordan would win 70 games. I mean, without Jordan they won 55 games and I think you can make a case that MJ is worth an additional 15 wins. That team was the perfect blend of the old dynasty guys but was rejuvenated a bit with guys like Kerr, Wennington, and Longley. Harper's definitely better defensively than BJ, but prime BJ Armstrong is a better overall player than 96 Harper. The depth on that team with Jordan would just be insane:

C. Cartwright/Longley/Perdue
PF.Grant/Wennington/Blount
SF.Pippen/Kukoc/Buechler
SG.Jordan/Myers?
PG.Armstrong/Kerr/Paxson

That team just seems so dangerous.

I have little doubt that the Bulls with Grant and MJ win those two years MJ was gone. I do wonder if Dennis or Grant would have been better for that last three peat. They could actually have had both and played Grant at center, which would have been pretty lethal.