2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[TheSuzerain]

If Coby plays like Feb-March Coby and Hayes still outbeats him, then 100% draft Hayes.

Do people realize that Feb - March Coby and Zach Lavine can not reasonably co-exist together?

For the love of god, we need some passing out of our backcourt.

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

[Grodoboldo]

If Edwards slips (growing murmurs about this), does the board want the Bulls to take him?

Yes, count me in. He's the only prospect I'd pick over Hayes (at this time).

[MrSparkle]

If you're making the case that Coby will be outplayed by Hayes, and lose his starting spot, that's more reason to draft Hayes. I don't understand the logic of staying away from a player because he might be better than the current player on your roster. That's absurd.

Roster construction matters in the NBA more than people like to believe. The Sixers went BPA(well, on their board)regardless of position during the process and their roster is flawed. Charlotte has done the same thing and their roster is badly flawed. Phoenix has done it in the past. Orlando is currently still doing it.

At some point you have to draft for position or the glut catches up with you.

We have a glut of point guards yes, but almost none of those players are worth a damn in the grand scheme of things. Sato, Archie, Dunn(RFA), being disposable while White being the only PG with some future on this team. Roster construction does matter but when you have good talent that was acquired through the draft. You can just trade the excess position to fill out the roster if need be.

Besides we are still a young team. I wouldn't put too much stock on roster construction. Obviously it still a factor and we would need to fill out the roster so we could have a balanced roster so our young guys would not get restricted in playing like they normally would.

Our biggest issue is talent. if it wasn't we wouldn't have looked bad all of last year. I get injury was also a factor, But when we're all healthy early on in the season we were still losing to the likes of the Knicks, Cavs, and Hornets.

Yeah. I think roster construction is important from a development angle. I didn't think that buying a full-time PF & PG when Lauri and Coby made a whole lot of sense. Actually think that spending on a lower-tier backup for Otto or Zach would've made sense, because there is an established pecking order. Zach and Otto are obviously going to be better than whatever MLE or $15m FA you sign.

With Lauri and Coby, it was dangerous because Thad got benched despite (arguably) being a better player than Lauri, and Coby got benched by virtue of being a rookie despite being much more talented than Sato.

When drafting this high (#4), especially in an unclear draft, the fact is that you have a chance to draft an all-star. Two of the top-5 prospects are PGs, so you have to consider over-stacking the position and resolving it later. Fact is with 6 PGs, the Bulls still had arguably the worst PG rotation in the entire NBA.

You consider needs and personality in free agency; focus in on talent in the draft (all-star projection).

Everybody needs a playmaker who can score and defend. Even if you have a Giannis, Luka, Lebron ... it sure helps to have a second guy, even if they played a redundant position. Can you imagine the Bucks if Jabari never tore his ACL 2x and lived up to his potential/trajectory? Him and Giannis would be redundant PFs who handle the ball, with Giannis clearly being the better one, but I'm pretty sure they would've figured out a way to make it work (or traded Jabari for a way better return then letting him walk).

You've got 4 such guys (potentially) in this top-5. This draft projects a very low success rate. You're really just targeting that 1 guy who'll pan out from this crop. I'm sure Arturas is not worried about it conflicting with anybody else's position on this roster.

[FriedRise]

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[Jvaughn]

Do people realize that Feb - March Coby and Zach Lavine can not reasonably co-exist together?

For the love of god, we need some passing out of our backcourt.

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

He's not saying you don't need passers. He's saying if you have a backcourt of shoot first players, the other positions need to pick up the slack there. There is no rule that days your guards have to be your main facilitators. That's why the Nuggets offense with Jokic works. This is a big reason people here want to bring in players like Deni because they help ball movement on the offensive side when you have shoot first players. And I'd disagree that our biggest issue is our lacking of passing. Our biggest issue is that we only have Coby and Zach who can regularly create their own offense.

[MrFortune3]

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Sweet Jesus, please deliver me Deni to the Bulls.

[MrFortune3]

Do people realize that Feb - March Coby and Zach Lavine can not reasonably co-exist together?

For the love of god, we need some passing out of our backcourt.

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

No. I’m saying if you have 2 shooters in Coby and Zach that it makes sense to ensure your SF can create and open up the offense for others.
Nothing mandates the back court being the only creators.
Also, part of the reason they don’t “pass” is cause they have to shoot because no one else will aggressively seek to take open looks.

You can have the best passing PG in the league, if no one takes and makes the shots you end up with a bunch dribbling.

[Southpaw]

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Deni on the Bulls would be a nice Christmas gift haha.

On another topic, 2 of the top 3 players in the finals are bigs. You can even argue that Lebron is currently a big. But they'd need to have perimeter skills (playmaking/passing for Bam, ball handling/shooting for AD and everything for Lebron). With this in mind, does this make Wiseman a better prospect? He seems to have a solid shooting form and has some passing skills.

[drosereturn]

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Deni on the Bulls would be a nice Christmas gift haha.

On another topic, 2 of the top 3 players in the finals are bigs. You can even argue that Lebron is currently a big. But they'd need to have perimeter skills (playmaking/passing for Bam, ball handling/shooting for AD and everything for Lebron). With this in mind, does this make Wiseman a better prospect? He seems to have a solid shooting form and has some passing skills.

fk it. im picking Deni although I said he was overrated. I mean one of Wiseman/Deni will fall so cant complain.
I just realized tel aviv was a top Euroleague team which explains why Deni sucked there and had 10 minutes per game.
I thought Doncic was a bust and Deni has similar athletic limitations but as long as they have burst speed, im ok with them not being westbrooks. Deni claims he can play 1-4 and I buy that bc he is a homeless mans Doncic. What can go wrong?
Unlike that terrible Hayes fit wise, his versatility is as good as Doncic which is a huge plus. White and Lavine should be thankful their career savior is coming bc he rarely takes away usage.

Roll with Deni/Lavine/Porter/Lauri/Carter with White 6th man and if Deni is any good they should easily make the 8th seed.
One of the starters will always be injured whether its Porter or Carter so White will start half of those games as pg.
AD defected meaning its impossible to get a tier 1 fa so probably settle with two of Hayward/Griffin/Derozan on 3yr/60 deals.

[CjayC]

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Deni on the Bulls would be a nice Christmas gift haha.

On another topic, 2 of the top 3 players in the finals are bigs. You can even argue that Lebron is currently a big. But they'd need to have perimeter skills (playmaking/passing for Bam, ball handling/shooting for AD and everything for Lebron). With this in mind, does this make Wiseman a better prospect? He seems to have a solid shooting form and has some passing skills.

fk it. im picking Deni although I said he was overrated. I mean one of Wiseman/Deni will fall so cant complain.
I just realized tel aviv was a top Euroleague team which explains why Deni sucked there and had 10 minutes per game.
I thought Doncic was a bust and Deni has similar athletic limitations but as long as they have burst speed, im ok with them not being westbrooks. Deni claims he can play 1-4 and I buy that bc he is a homeless mans Doncic. What can go wrong?
Unlike that terrible Hayes fit wise, his versatility is as good as Doncic which is a huge plus. White and Lavine should be thankful their career savior is coming bc he rarely takes away usage.

Roll with Deni/Lavine/Porter/Lauri/Carter with White 6th man and if Deni is any good they should easily make the 8th seed.
One of the starters will always be injured whether its Porter or Carter so White will start half of those games as pg.
AD defected meaning its impossible to get a tier 1 fa so probably settle with two of Hayward/Griffin/Derozan on 3yr/60 deals.

I'd say Deni's comfortably a better run and jump athlete than Luka, and within the general scope of the NBA for his size I'd say Deni's closer to the + end of athletes, than the average end.

Luka's leaps and bounds better at things that are more difficult to put into words."Craft".... Ball handling, Footwork, quick twitchiness and lateral agility. I get that you say "homeless version", but I don't really see a comparison in terms of playstyle. Deni will be at his best in transition where he can pass, pull up, even run & catch an oop when he doesn't have the ball, but his half court game on-ball game will need work.

[The Box Office]

Do people realize that Feb - March Coby and Zach Lavine can not reasonably co-exist together?

For the love of god, we need some passing out of our backcourt.

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

Personally, I wouldn't bother with them. Yeah, it's hilarious.

Coby White is an undersized shooting guard. Who is a ball hog. That's all he is. The Gilbert Arena projections are stupid. Gilbert Arenas himself doesn't win anyway. Look at Damian Lilliard. How is that working out for him? He can't win either.

Jamal Murray? GTFO. Coby White and Murray are nothing alike. If I was Denver, I would build that team around Jokic. Not Jamal Murray. No disrespect to Jamal, but hell no, I wouldn't build around an undersized shooting guard.

[Bulldog23]

I hope the Bulls secure a pick between 15 to 20. Get a wing that can develop into 3D guy.

[rtblues]

My updated draft wish list at #4 is now:
A. Issac Okoro
B. Killian Hayes
C. Devin Vessell
D. Deni Avdija

I am also seriously downgrading on Ball, Wiseman and Edwards.
That is all...

[Jcool0]

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

Personally, I wouldn't bother with them. Yeah, it's hilarious.

Coby White is an undersized shooting guard. Who is a ball hog. That's all he is. The Gilbert Arena projections are stupid. Gilbert Arenas himself doesn't win anyway. Look at Damian Lilliard. How is that working out for him? He can't win either.

Jamal Murray? GTFO. Coby White and Murray are nothing alike. If I was Denver, I would build that team around Jokic. Not Jamal Murray. No disrespect to Jamal, but hell no, I wouldn't build around an undersized shooting guard.

What? Lillard cant win? He has played in 55 playoff games including the Western Conference Finals last year. Clearly he can win.

[gobullschi]

My updated draft wish list at #4 is now:
A. Issac Okoro
B. Killian Hayes
C. Devin Vessell
D. Deni Avdija

I am also seriously downgrading on Ball, Wiseman and Edwards.
That is all...

I’ll be playing close attention to Isaac Okoro’s measurements. My eyes see a guy who is closer to 6’4 with average length, which is awful for a wing. If he measures 6’6 without shoes than I’ll spend more time evaluating him.

Are you saying you have those 4 guys over Ball, Wiseman, & Edwards?

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Do people realize that Feb - March Coby and Zach Lavine can not reasonably co-exist together?

For the love of god, we need some passing out of our backcourt.

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

Bulls were 19th in the league in passes made per game.
Bulls were 23rd in the league in assists per game.

Bulls were 27th in the league in points scored per game.
Bulls were 26th in the league in field goal percentage.

The offense needs a ton of fixing, but to me the biggest issue is guys simply can't score on this team. There is very little shot creating ability and shot making ability in the lineup. WCJ can't do it, Lauri can't do it, Dunn can't do it, Sato can't do it. Lavine and White are probably the only two guys that can create for themselves, or create off a pick and roll. That's about it. I don't understand the logic that these two don't work together. Coby will certainly work within the offense given to him.

A good offensive creator would certainly help the offense, but a lot of things would help the offense. It's a dumpster fire. I'm not sure limiting the 2 best offensive weapons is the way to go.

[TheSuzerain]

That's what point forwards are for. If the backcourt can't pass then the F can.
Realistically though, the issue isn't a lack of passing, the issue is that no other bulls were aggressively looking for their shot. Just standing around waiting for Zach or Coby to create one for them. Well, let me correct myself, no Bulls with a massively bright future with the team were aggressively looking for their shot.

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

Bulls were 19th in the league in passes made per game.
Bulls were 23rd in the league in assists per game.

Bulls were 27th in the league in points scored per game.
Bulls were 26th in the league in field goal percentage.

The offense needs a ton of fixing, but to me the biggest issue is guys simply can't score on this team. There is very little shot creating ability and shot making ability in the lineup. WCJ can't do it, Lauri can't do it, Dunn can't do it, Sato can't do it. Lavine and White are probably the only two guys that can create for themselves, or create off a pick and roll. That's about it. I don't understand the logic that these two don't work together. Coby will certainly work within the offense given to him.

A good offensive creator would certainly help the offense, but a lot of things would help the offense. It's a dumpster fire. I'm not sure limiting the 2 best offensive weapons is the way to go.

The best way to help limited offensive players score is to pair them with an actual capable distributor.

Asking Lauri and WCJ to create their own offense is really stupid. We need to get them good looks in system. That goes for Otto too. That's where most offensive efficiency comes from.

Any offense which features White/Lavine as the engines of the offense is going to suck out loud. We need an actual offensive playmaker to pull the strings. Lavine belongs in a 2nd option role where's he's not the lead on-ball initiator (except in spurts). White doesn't belong in a starting line-up at all right now. He's a clear liability on offense until he shows otherwise.

Do people not watch the playoffs? Passing, ball movement, and decision-making are absolutely essential components of modern NBA offenses. The need for passing in your team might be at an all-time high.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

A lack of passing is literally the biggest issue the Bulls have. And it starts in the backcourt.

Your mind set reminds me of GarPax who thought if they could just gather enough shooters, the offense would be effective. How's that working out for us?

Bulls were 19th in the league in passes made per game.
Bulls were 23rd in the league in assists per game.

Bulls were 27th in the league in points scored per game.
Bulls were 26th in the league in field goal percentage.

The offense needs a ton of fixing, but to me the biggest issue is guys simply can't score on this team. There is very little shot creating ability and shot making ability in the lineup. WCJ can't do it, Lauri can't do it, Dunn can't do it, Sato can't do it. Lavine and White are probably the only two guys that can create for themselves, or create off a pick and roll. That's about it. I don't understand the logic that these two don't work together. Coby will certainly work within the offense given to him.

A good offensive creator would certainly help the offense, but a lot of things would help the offense. It's a dumpster fire. I'm not sure limiting the 2 best offensive weapons is the way to go.

The best way to help limited offensive players score is to pair them with an actual capable distributor.

Asking Lauri and WCJ to create their own offense is really stupid. We need to get them good looks in system. That goes for Otto too. That's where most offensive efficiency comes from.

Any offense which features White/Lavine as the engines of the offense is going to suck out loud. We need an actual offensive playmaker to pull the strings. Lavine belongs in a 2nd option role where's he's not the lead on-ball initiator (except in spurts). White doesn't belong in a starting line-up at all right now. He's a clear liability on offense until he shows otherwise.

Do people not watch the playoffs? Passing, ball movement, and decision-making are absolutely essential components of modern NBA offenses. The need for passing in your team might be at an all-time high.

Yeah I guess I disagree with this approach. To me, this is the James Harden offense, or the Lebron offense, where one guy is setting everything up. It's so difficult to find that one guy, that can create, not be a defensive liability, and score. That's an all nba player.

When I watch Miami or Boston or Denver, they have multiple guys creating and ball movement, like you said. The Bulls don't have a Harden or James, but they have a couple guys that can help create. They should go this route, and likely will.

[TheSuzerain]

Bulls were 19th in the league in passes made per game.
Bulls were 23rd in the league in assists per game.

Bulls were 27th in the league in points scored per game.
Bulls were 26th in the league in field goal percentage.

The offense needs a ton of fixing, but to me the biggest issue is guys simply can't score on this team. There is very little shot creating ability and shot making ability in the lineup. WCJ can't do it, Lauri can't do it, Dunn can't do it, Sato can't do it. Lavine and White are probably the only two guys that can create for themselves, or create off a pick and roll. That's about it. I don't understand the logic that these two don't work together. Coby will certainly work within the offense given to him.

A good offensive creator would certainly help the offense, but a lot of things would help the offense. It's a dumpster fire. I'm not sure limiting the 2 best offensive weapons is the way to go.

The best way to help limited offensive players score is to pair them with an actual capable distributor.

Asking Lauri and WCJ to create their own offense is really stupid. We need to get them good looks in system. That goes for Otto too. That's where most offensive efficiency comes from.

Any offense which features White/Lavine as the engines of the offense is going to suck out loud. We need an actual offensive playmaker to pull the strings. Lavine belongs in a 2nd option role where's he's not the lead on-ball initiator (except in spurts). White doesn't belong in a starting line-up at all right now. He's a clear liability on offense until he shows otherwise.

Do people not watch the playoffs? Passing, ball movement, and decision-making are absolutely essential components of modern NBA offenses. The need for passing in your team might be at an all-time high.

Yeah I guess I disagree with this approach. To me, this is the James Harden offense, or the Lebron offense, where one guy is setting everything up. It's so difficult to find that one guy, that can create, not be a defensive liability, and score. That's an all nba player.

When I watch Miami or Boston or Denver, they have multiple guys creating and ball movement, like you said. The Bulls don't have a Harden or James, but they have a couple guys that can help create. They should go this route, and likely will.

We don't have anybody who can help create though (other than for themselves). Even in the team-concept approach like Miami, you need good passers spread throughout the roster. We have no good passers other than maybe Sato who is hardly a creative force.

Butler, Dragic, Iggy, and probably Herro are better passers than anybody we've got.
Smart, Kemba, and Tatum (he impressed me with his passing this playoffs) same thing.
Monte Morris, Jokic (he's close to that Harden/Doncic tier as a playmaking hub), and Murray same thing

Maybe White and WCJ can grow to reach a decent enough level as a passer to fit into a team concept, but neither are overly gifted. Lavine? How many times does the guy have to show he's not a capable playmaker for that to finally sink in for some of you. You're like battered house-wives. Season 7! This is the year Lavine's IQ and vision will develop!

This all goes back to why we really should take Hayes. He'll immediately be the best passer on the team.

[drosereturn]

Bulls were 19th in the league in passes made per game.
Bulls were 23rd in the league in assists per game.

Bulls were 27th in the league in points scored per game.
Bulls were 26th in the league in field goal percentage.

The offense needs a ton of fixing, but to me the biggest issue is guys simply can't score on this team. There is very little shot creating ability and shot making ability in the lineup. WCJ can't do it, Lauri can't do it, Dunn can't do it, Sato can't do it. Lavine and White are probably the only two guys that can create for themselves, or create off a pick and roll. That's about it. I don't understand the logic that these two don't work together. Coby will certainly work within the offense given to him.

A good offensive creator would certainly help the offense, but a lot of things would help the offense. It's a dumpster fire. I'm not sure limiting the 2 best offensive weapons is the way to go.

The best way to help limited offensive players score is to pair them with an actual capable distributor.

Asking Lauri and WCJ to create their own offense is really stupid. We need to get them good looks in system. That goes for Otto too. That's where most offensive efficiency comes from.

Any offense which features White/Lavine as the engines of the offense is going to suck out loud. We need an actual offensive playmaker to pull the strings. Lavine belongs in a 2nd option role where's he's not the lead on-ball initiator (except in spurts). White doesn't belong in a starting line-up at all right now. He's a clear liability on offense until he shows otherwise.

Do people not watch the playoffs? Passing, ball movement, and decision-making are absolutely essential components of modern NBA offenses. The need for passing in your team might be at an all-time high.

Yeah I guess I disagree with this approach. To me, this is the James Harden offense, or the Lebron offense, where one guy is setting everything up. It's so difficult to find that one guy, that can create, not be a defensive liability, and score. That's an all nba player.

When I watch Miami or Boston or Denver, they have multiple guys creating and ball movement, like you said. The Bulls don't have a Harden or James, but they have a couple guys that can help create. They should go this route, and likely will.

Common misconception. You dont need a Harden, Lebron type where one guy is doing everything.
But the problem is we dont have a lebron and each player esp Lavine and White sucks so hard not even looking to pass its impossible to even imitate the Heat who all developed to pass well although they werent born like Luka. Garpax and Boylen had the exact same thought as you which was why they kept all ining at those 2 players and take the easy way bc they could iso and do their own stuff very inefficiently. Again, if Butler was on this team, you would have claimed he should dominate the ball but todays Miami shows why having multiple ball handlers is much better esp Bam emerging as the best passer.
The condition to this is every player has to be selfless but all Lavine and White cares abt is awards and scoring pts they might prefer to stat pad affecting Lauri to give up.