NBA Trade Thread #12

[Chi town]

The Lively glazing is insane right now. Words like "franchise cornerstone" are being thrown out about a run/open dunk/shotblocking center, as if you can't find that for the minimum easily. Obviously Lively is a good player but his skillset is nothing special, and factor in his health and you have a player who is being significantly overvalued.

This.

Coby was 25ppg post trade. He’s a worker. You don’t trade him for a rim running C.

[sco]

The Lively glazing is insane right now. Words like "franchise cornerstone" are being thrown out about a run/open dunk/shotblocking center, as if you can't find that for the minimum easily. Obviously Lively is a good player but his skillset is nothing special, and factor in his health and you have a player who is being significantly overvalued.

This.

Coby was 25ppg post trade. He’s a worker. You don’t trade him for a rim running C.

I generally agree in this case; however, I might change my mind if we draft someone like Coward or KJ who could step into the Coby role after next season and we'd have Huerter or Ayo hold down the fort this season.

My remaining Coby concerns are his defense which just seems too exploitable in the post season and his future price being $30M+ despite his defensive liabilities.

[Chi town]

The Lively glazing is insane right now. Words like "franchise cornerstone" are being thrown out about a run/open dunk/shotblocking center, as if you can't find that for the minimum easily. Obviously Lively is a good player but his skillset is nothing special, and factor in his health and you have a player who is being significantly overvalued.

This.

Coby was 25ppg post trade. He’s a worker. You don’t trade him for a rim running C.

I generally agree in this case; however, I might change my mind if we draft someone like Coward or KJ who could step into the Coby role after next season and we'd have Huerter or Ayo hold down the fort this season.

My remaining Coby concerns are his defense which just seems too exploitable in the post season and his future price being $30M+ despite his defensive liabilities.

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

[sco]

This.

Coby was 25ppg post trade. He’s a worker. You don’t trade him for a rim running C.

I generally agree in this case; however, I might change my mind if we draft someone like Coward or KJ who could step into the Coby role after next season and we'd have Huerter or Ayo hold down the fort this season.

My remaining Coby concerns are his defense which just seems too exploitable in the post season and his future price being $30M+ despite his defensive liabilities.

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

[Chi town]

I generally agree in this case; however, I might change my mind if we draft someone like Coward or KJ who could step into the Coby role after next season and we'd have Huerter or Ayo hold down the fort this season.

My remaining Coby concerns are his defense which just seems too exploitable in the post season and his future price being $30M+ despite his defensive liabilities.

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

I think we will be a Giddey led team with Coby as our scorer and Buz eventually as our #1. Def a defensive C over a Vuc KAT mismatch every possession.

[ChettheJet]

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

True, plenty of players on NBA rosters can thrown in 25 ppg. But not that many will get the minutes from a coach trying to win games if they're doing it at the expense of the other players on the floor. Coby scores within the offense, sure he puts up a few from the logo but for the most part he's not keeping the ball away from Giddey, Matas or Vuc, Josh gets those 15 assists from everybody including Coby. He's not like Cam Thomas in BRK, he can throw in 35 points before he breaks a sweat but the other 4 guys are left to just watch him. There's a difference

[sco]

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

I think we will be a Giddey led team with Coby as our scorer and Buz eventually as our #1. Def a defensive C over a Vuc KAT mismatch every possession.

I disagree. I think AK hasn't learned from the Vuc mistake and he'll repeat his mistake and choose a Sabonis or Queen over what EVERYBODY else sees.

I think the term "led" is the hard part of where we are. The more successful teams today have their lead ball handler as their top scorer. I agree that Giddey is our lead ball handler and that he won't be our best scorer. IMO, the reason that those other teams are having success is because in most cases their lead guy is their weakest defender and the other guys are all good defenders (I've said before that you can have ONLY one bad defender and still contend). For that to be the case with us, Giddey would need to become A LOT BETTER DEFENDER...while I was pleased with his improvement, it went from very bad to average at best...the next step is very hard. Our problem is that neither Giddey or (especially) Coby are good enough defenders to not require other guys to cover-up for them.

[sco]

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

True, plenty of players on NBA rosters can thrown in 25 ppg. But not that many will get the minutes from a coach trying to win games if they're doing it at the expense of the other players on the floor. Coby scores within the offense, sure he puts up a few from the logo but for the most part he's not keeping the ball away from Giddey, Matas or Vuc, Josh gets those 15 assists from everybody including Coby. He's not like Cam Thomas in BRK, he can throw in 35 points before he breaks a sweat but the other 4 guys are left to just watch him. There's a difference

Fair point, but per my post above this one, the problem I see is this team lacks enough defense to cover up for Coby and Giddey.

[Chi town]

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

True, plenty of players on NBA rosters can thrown in 25 ppg. But not that many will get the minutes from a coach trying to win games if they're doing it at the expense of the other players on the floor. Coby scores within the offense, sure he puts up a few from the logo but for the most part he's not keeping the ball away from Giddey, Matas or Vuc, Josh gets those 15 assists from everybody including Coby. He's not like Cam Thomas in BRK, he can throw in 35 points before he breaks a sweat but the other 4 guys are left to just watch him. There's a difference

Fair point, but per my post above this one, the problem I see is this team lacks enough defense to cover up for Coby and Giddey.

I think Buz will be a really good defender. Maybe 3 team all NBA defense a couple times. His IQ length and edge are that good. We need one more ideally better than him and a rim protector.

Giddey was average end of last year. Coby wasn’t good but I also think both of them level up with an average defensive C.

Vuc is literally the worst defensive C in the league. He only makes those two even worse. Give them some help and I don’t think we’d be talking about it much. This is why I want Noa or Coward. Both level up the wing defense big time with their length and activity.

[sco]

True, plenty of players on NBA rosters can thrown in 25 ppg. But not that many will get the minutes from a coach trying to win games if they're doing it at the expense of the other players on the floor. Coby scores within the offense, sure he puts up a few from the logo but for the most part he's not keeping the ball away from Giddey, Matas or Vuc, Josh gets those 15 assists from everybody including Coby. He's not like Cam Thomas in BRK, he can throw in 35 points before he breaks a sweat but the other 4 guys are left to just watch him. There's a difference

Fair point, but per my post above this one, the problem I see is this team lacks enough defense to cover up for Coby and Giddey.

I think Buz will be a really good defender. Maybe 3 team all NBA defense a couple times. His IQ length and edge are that good. We need one more ideally better than him and a rim protector.

Giddey was average end of last year. Coby wasn’t good but I also think both of them level up with an average defensive C.

Vuc is literally the worst defensive C in the league. He only makes those two even worse. Give them some help and I don’t think we’d be talking about it much. This is why I want Noa or Coward. Both level up the wing defense big time with their length and activity.

Totally agree. That said. I still think AK will replace Vuc with...Vuc (just with a different name on his jersey like Sabonis or Queen).

[Chi town]

Fair point, but per my post above this one, the problem I see is this team lacks enough defense to cover up for Coby and Giddey.

I think Buz will be a really good defender. Maybe 3 team all NBA defense a couple times. His IQ length and edge are that good. We need one more ideally better than him and a rim protector.

Giddey was average end of last year. Coby wasn’t good but I also think both of them level up with an average defensive C.

Vuc is literally the worst defensive C in the league. He only makes those two even worse. Give them some help and I don’t think we’d be talking about it much. This is why I want Noa or Coward. Both level up the wing defense big time with their length and activity.

Totally agree. That said. I still think AK will replace Vuc with...Vuc (just with a different name on his jersey like Sabonis or Queen).

I don’t. I think Billy has him convinced in playing fast and with two way players.

Guddey gets a lob threat that can also run and protect the rim and this offense levels up.

[sco]

I think Buz will be a really good defender. Maybe 3 team all NBA defense a couple times. His IQ length and edge are that good. We need one more ideally better than him and a rim protector.

Giddey was average end of last year. Coby wasn’t good but I also think both of them level up with an average defensive C.

Vuc is literally the worst defensive C in the league. He only makes those two even worse. Give them some help and I don’t think we’d be talking about it much. This is why I want Noa or Coward. Both level up the wing defense big time with their length and activity.

Totally agree. That said. I still think AK will replace Vuc with...Vuc (just with a different name on his jersey like Sabonis or Queen).

I don’t. I think Billy has him convinced in playing fast and with two way players.

Guddey gets a lob threat that can also run and protect the rim and this offense levels up.

I like your optimism.

[Tetlak]

I generally agree in this case; however, I might change my mind if we draft someone like Coward or KJ who could step into the Coby role after next season and we'd have Huerter or Ayo hold down the fort this season.

My remaining Coby concerns are his defense which just seems too exploitable in the post season and his future price being $30M+ despite his defensive liabilities.

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

Just to be fair:
- Anybody can score with enough volume, sure. Few can score with volume at 60 TS like Coby did this past season.
- Coby is bigger than Brunson, but I understand and agree with your point. We just dont have it nearly as bad with Coby.

[sco]

Coward KJ and Ayo will never sniff 25ppg. They don’t have the on ball juice.

I think Coby with an elite defender next to him like Coward and a rim protector C and his D would be covered well and improve.

I feel like pretty much anyone can score 25ppg when put in the role of #1 scoring option with the ball in his hands. Last season we were a team of guys who were reluctant shooters except Coby (and Vuc). I don't want to diminish Coby's improvement, but after watching the Knicks get beat because Indy kept targeting Brunson and KAT, I feel like a Coby led team can't do anything in the playoffs.

Just to be fair:
- Anybody can score with enough volume, sure. Few can score with volume at 60 TS like Coby did this past season.
- Coby is bigger than Brunson, but I understand and agree with your point. We just dont have it nearly as bad with Coby.

I'd like you to be right, but IMO Brunson is actually a better defender than Coby. And I'm not saying Coby isn't a good offensive NBA player and relatively efficient, and I love his work ethic. I don't expect a title next season, but I do expect Coby to have a good enough season to make us regret "paying up" to keep him, and I fully expect us to keep him.

[NocioniHomie]

If Giannis asks out and is traded - how much do you think can be extracted from Portland for the rights to their pick back?

Currently they have no control of their first rounders through 28-29 season
They can't swap with Milwaukee in 28 if they make the playoffs

If AKME is savvy - which we all question - this has to be leveraged against them.

I've seen the Houston boards throw Anfernee Simons name around as trade option. Doesn't make sense why teams consider him better than Coby $25M expiring vs. $13M and Coby has been consistently more productive - anyway

Some combination of Reed, Whitmore, Jabari, #10 going out for Simons. The Bulls sending Portland Pick back and expirings (Huerter, Collins) to help Houston facilitate.

Giannis' decision should have immediate impact on Bulls' workable assets and that's expected to be first domino of offseason

[Dez]

The Lively glazing is insane right now. Words like "franchise cornerstone" are being thrown out about a run/open dunk/shotblocking center, as if you can't find that for the minimum easily. Obviously Lively is a good player but his skillset is nothing special, and factor in his health and you have a player who is being significantly overvalued.

This.

Coby was 25ppg post trade. He’s a worker. You don’t trade him for a rim running C.

He's an UFA about to be overpaid, he doesn't have the value you think.

Give me Lively all day, every day.

[Infinity2152]

The Lively glazing is insane right now. Words like "franchise cornerstone" are being thrown out about a run/open dunk/shotblocking center, as if you can't find that for the minimum easily. Obviously Lively is a good player but his skillset is nothing special, and factor in his health and you have a player who is being significantly overvalued.

This is pretty much where I am. Lively's like a rookie who shows potential. His potential does not look like Embid or Jokic. His health issues lower his trade value, even though I'd still take him, they have to lower his value. Coby has played much more, at a pretty high level.

All this trading AD is just people making up things that don't exist. lakers could trade Luka. Celtics could trade Tatum. Anybody COULD trade anybody., but AD is currently not in any trade rumors. Like at all. They JUST got him. Let's not create AD trades out of thin air. The $60 mill often injured guy will be the hardest to move.

They will have 5 good bigs if they draft Flagg. They have 1 good guard and he's out for the season. Regardless of if it's for Coby, highly likely one or two of those big men get moved for a guard. AD and Flagg are the least likely. So what better $5-$12 mill guards are they getting for Gafford or Lively, that would be considered so much better than Coby that Coby isn't even an option? Both are bench players so far in their careers basically.

[Infinity2152]

If we can't agree in here whether Ball/White for Washington/Lively is a fair deal, surely there are people on that side who would feel the same way. The actual decision makers for the Mavs could be on either side, which is why you make offers. Let's look at best case for both side:

Mavs get Ball/White: Ball is healthy the next two years and is an absolute steal of a player, a legit starter for $10 mill. Sixth Man when Kyrie returns.
White has a great season and Kings re-sign him. They can sign him over the cap because he's already on the team. He's their
new long term SG.
2026 team: Irving, White, Klay Thompson, Flagg, AD with Ball, maybe re-signed Gafford on the bench

Bulls get Washington/Lively: Bulls sign Tre Jones to 3 yrs/$8 mill AAV to replace Ball
Lively is healthy the next two years, fits well with the young guys, we extend our center for the next 6 years
Washington fits in well, thrives next to Matas
Draft good/great rookie in 2025
Williams, Terry or Phillips: 2 become good role players

Summer 2026 we'd have Giddey, 2025 rookie, 2026 rookie, Matas, Washington, Lively, Williams, Phillips and a TON of cap

What's the worst case for us giving up Ball and White for Washington/Lively? Really?

[NocioniHomie]

Seen Cavs boards proposing Okoro for Lonzo, but not thinking that's enough for Bulls to move on Lonzo

[dawhizz]

Not sure about the appetite on either side for another Sacramento trade, but what about a straight swap of Ayo for Keegan Murray? Bulls get a three point shooter at the 3 and eases their guard glut a bit, and Sacramento gets a guy who can play PG and give them some defensive grit.