Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Ctownbulls]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

Why? Because Rose is the player that needs to be coached harder. Do people really think that Jimmy thinks Noah or Taj needs to get coached tougher or need to get called out? I mean maybe he is referring to Niko, Pau or Doug but does coaching those players harder really impact the team mentality?

There is obviously more than one reason why the Hoiberg offense and general philosophy isn't working but it starts with the PG (and I don't want to hear that his philosophy is working because they are a .600 team, if you don't think that this team has issues than there is no point in discussing this). It starts with the so-called leader who still gets announced last in intros, still makes his BS pep talk pre-game and still has the ball in his hands at the end of the games.

There is already a rift between Jimmy and Rose. That has been documented and it is most likely true. The same way the rumors of VDN and Paxson and the rumors of Thibs and management became true. That tension has been building for a while and continued into training camp with Rose's comments about his contract (which we know Jimmy didn't appreciate). We get a new coach who implements a new fast paced offense that the PG doesn't run. Not only does he not run it he basically hasn't tried the entire season (except a few games) and stands in the corner. Does Hoiberg bench Rose for not only being historically awful but not running the offense? Does he reduce his minutes? Does he pull him aside and put him in his place in private or in the locker room? Quite the contrary. He publicly makes excuses for him. It has been years and years of Rose being coddled by the team. It has been years and years of Jimmy busting his ass. Yet, Rose is still getting announced last. Rose is still doing his pre-game pep talk to appear to be the leader and the alpha. Rose is still getting the ball at the end of games which honestly defies logic. Jimmy is fed up. He wants Hoiberg to call the guy out the same way that this board calls him out and goes crazy when we watch him play. Not saying that it has to be in public but how can everyone in the world see that Rose isn't pushing the ball, that Rose isn't playing aggressive and that Rose has held the team back while he is trying to "recover" and the only one who doesn't realize it is Rose. All Rose can say is that it is going to be scary when he gets his rhythm or when he gets his confidence. Why does everyone else needs to suffer during that process that looks like it may never end?

And as much as Noah loves Rose and would never say anything, he has alluded to the same with his comments. When he said the other night that, "the right people are leading this team". He was referring to the fact that Rose actually put forth effort and had a decent game. The whole team is conscious of what is going on.

If I was in Jimmy's shoes I would be pissed too. And that doesn't mean I agree with his comments. I don't think he should have gone public with his comments and I think he should have pulled Fred aside and individual players aside and kept it in house. But I appreciate him trying to be a leader. Somebody has to.

[Indomitable]

Sounds like ALL the vets sans Jimmy are OK with using the regular season to develop younger players and play at a level or two below max.

Time to revisit your sig again this playoffs.

That's much different than not executing the coach's gameplan, which was Jimmy's complaint.

Just taking the regular season lightly is bad enough, but this is worse.

He described a rudderless team pretty much.

Again, thats a bombastic, egotistical view from Jimmy.

Kind of reminds me of some Knicks posters a few years ago on the Knicks board. They would start threads stating that they were leaving the board and giving elaborate reasons why.

Sounds like Jimmy wants his voice heard. Too bad, no one is listening. Thats typically what happens when you speak with the express intent of having your own voice heard.

Vocal leadership.

Robert Parish agrees.

[Rerisen]

(Rose screed)

Odd thing about the on floor dynamic, I think Rose passes to Butler a lot more than Butler passes to Rose.

I see Rose being wide open a lot ,and Jimmy working on a 1v1, and he just hoists up a shot.

Not that Rose has really been efficient to be real trusted, but you've got to make the right basketball play.

[Indomitable]

Interesting quote from Butler today to the Media after Shootaround;

Butler said he's learning to be a leader. Said this is first team he's tried to be a leader on.

Said the same thing yesterday, I doubt there was malicious intent, and that he would probably be shocked by the blowback.

The guy is struggling to jumpstart this team. You don't put a hit piece on him in the paper, you bring him in - which Fred did - and try to resolve it with some positive momentum.

FO is undermining Fred by lashing back out at Jimmy via KC.

I agree about the Front Office

[MrSparkle]

Well, I'm interested in seeing what happens.

Personally, I'm glad something was said publicly, because all our suspicions are confirmed. The team is breaking plays and taking nights off, from top-to-bottom, and the coach isn't reprimanding it.

I agree that Jimmy isn't gonna help the team if everybody hates him... but right now, Niko, Snell, Moore and the FO's lack of perimeter-options are kinda frustrating me... and the Rose enigma has obviously been wearing us out.

[BeatDaCavs420]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

Why? Because Rose is the player that needs to be coached harder. Do people really think that Jimmy thinks Noah or Taj needs to get coached tougher or need to get called out? I mean maybe he is referring to Niko, Pau or Doug but does coaching those players harder really impact the team mentality?

There is obviously more than one reason why the Hoiberg offense and general philosophy isn't working but it starts with the PG (and I don't want to hear that his philosophy is working because they are a .600 team, if you don't think that this team has issues than there is no point in discussing this). It starts with the so-called leader who still gets announced last in intros, still makes his BS pep talk pre-game and still has the ball in his hands at the end of the games.

There is already a rift between Jimmy and Rose. That has been documented and it is most likely true. The same way the rumors of VDN and Paxson and the rumors of Thibs and management became true. That tension has been building for a while and continued into training camp with Rose's comments about his contract (which we know Jimmy didn't appreciate). We get a new coach who implements a new fast paced offense that the PG doesn't run. Not only does he not run it he basically hasn't tried the entire season (except a few games) and stands in the corner. Does Hoiberg bench Rose for not only being historically awful but not running the offense? Does he reduce his minutes? Does he pull him aside and put him in his place in private or in the locker room? Quite the contrary. He publicly makes excuses for him. It has been years and years of Rose being coddled by the team. It has been years and years of Jimmy busting his ass. Yet, Rose is still getting announced last. Rose is still doing his pre-game pep talk to appear to be the leader and the alpha. Rose is still getting the ball at the end of games which honestly defies logic. Jimmy is fed up. He wants Hoiberg to call the guy out the same way that this board calls him out and goes crazy when we watch him play. Not saying that it has to be in public but how can everyone in the world see that Rose isn't pushing the ball, that Rose isn't playing aggressive and that Rose has held the team back while he is trying to "recover" and the only one who doesn't realize it is Rose. All Rose can say is that it is going to be scary when he gets his rhythm or when he gets his confidence. Why does everyone else needs to suffer during that process that looks like it may never end?

And as much as Noah loves Rose and would never say anything, he has alluded to the same with his comments. When he said the other night that, "the right people are leading this team". He was referring to the fact that Rose actually put forth effort and had a decent game. The whole team is conscious of what is going on.

If I was in Jimmy's shoes I would be pissed too. And that doesn't mean I agree with his comments. I don't think he should have gone public with his comments and I think he should have pulled Fred aside and individual players aside and kept it in house. But I appreciate him trying to be a leader. Somebody has to.

This is a great post sir

[NeckOfOladipo]

Does someone even remember all the leaked passive-aggressive fights our FO had with people?

What is the passive or aggressive fight here?

The "fight" seems to be Jimmy versus the rest of the team. A fight that Jimmy has picked and is constantly stoking the fire on.

Jimmy called his own self out, is he fighting with himself too?

The guy wants a lazy insubordinate team to play harder and a laid back passive coach to try harder to make them do it.

He's picked the right fight exactly, just went about fighting it in a bad way in this case.

Oh, COME ON.

LOL

You don't actually Jimmy's "myself included" lazily tacked on the end of his childish tirade was "calling himself out," do you? That reminds me of people who think putting "no offense" at the end of something automatically makes it less offensive.

Jimmy is our best player. He's great. He's an elite defender, and he creates a lot for us. However, he needs to reign this sh*t in really quickly. He's not what he's acting like he is. This is very, very arrogant speak for last year's MIP

[Indomitable]

Some of it could be self-serving, to be honest. He was frustrated, no doubt about it and I agree with his frustration. But let's be honest here; not warming up with the team, cursing at coaches, disrupting film sessions and calling names to the media isn't good leadership. It comes off as selfish and that's not how you get guys to buy in.

Agree- except the warming up thing- who gives a rats behind where or how a guy warms up for a game? That seems like a petty complaint. Let's not overlook the fact that Jimmy is also not the first person to try the 'A-Hole' leadership style. Plenty of famous men have tried a similar style- Jordan (well before he won his first MVP), Steve Jobs, Trump, Zuckerburg, etc. Wouldn't want to work for any of those guys- but it's not without precedent.

I think the warming up thing goes along with him not going to the team building in Napa. So it carries some weight. A-hole leaders may be effective short term, but it's not a good long term strategy. People get burnt out by that stuff and eventually, you have to learn how to positively motivate people as well. That's where he can really grow as a leader. Build people up, which Derrick actually does a really good job of (same with Jo).

Jordan was force to scale it back and the rest of the people were their own Bosse(Jobs....)s. Jimmy needs consent to lead. You can be an ass and expect people to follow you. Especially today

[MrSparkle]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

Why? Because Rose is the player that needs to be coached harder. Do people really think that Jimmy thinks Noah or Taj needs to get coached tougher or need to get called out? I mean maybe he is referring to Niko, Pau or Doug but does coaching those players harder really impact the team mentality?

There is obviously more than one reason why the Hoiberg offense and general philosophy isn't working but it starts with the PG (and I don't want to hear that his philosophy is working because they are a .600 team, if you don't think that this team has issues than there is no point in discussing this). It starts with the so-called leader who still gets announced last in intros, still makes his BS pep talk pre-game and still has the ball in his hands at the end of the games.

There is already a rift between Jimmy and Rose. That has been documented and it is most likely true. The same way the rumors of VDN and Paxson and the rumors of Thibs and management became true. That tension has been building for a while and continued into training camp with Rose's comments about his contract (which we know Jimmy didn't appreciate). We get a new coach who implements a new fast paced offense that the PG doesn't run. Not only does he not run it he basically hasn't tried the entire season (except a few games) and stands in the corner. Does Hoiberg bench Rose for not only being historically awful but not running the offense? Does he reduce his minutes? Does he pull him aside and put him in his place in private or in the locker room? Quite the contrary. He publicly makes excuses for him. It has been years and years of Rose being coddled by the team. It has been years and years of Jimmy busting his ass. Yet, Rose is still getting announced last. Rose is still doing his pre-game pep talk to appear to be the leader and the alpha. Rose is still getting the ball at the end of games which honestly defies logic. Jimmy is fed up. He wants Hoiberg to call the guy out the same way that this board calls him out and goes crazy when we watch him play. Not saying that it has to be in public but how can everyone in the world see that Rose isn't pushing the ball, that Rose isn't playing aggressive and that Rose has held the team back while he is trying to "recover" and the only one who doesn't realize it is Rose. All Rose can say is that it is going to be scary when he gets his rhythm or when he gets his confidence. Why does everyone else needs to suffer during that process that looks like it may never end?

And as much as Noah loves Rose and would never say anything, he has alluded to the same with his comments. When he said the other night that, "the right people are leading this team". He was referring to the fact that Rose actually put forth effort and had a decent game. The whole team is conscious of what is going on.

If I was in Jimmy's shoes I would be pissed too. And that doesn't mean I agree with his comments. I don't think he should have gone public with his comments and I think he should have pulled Fred aside and individual players aside and kept it in house. But I appreciate him trying to be a leader. Somebody has to.

Best theory IMO. It's the same thought I've had, though I feel it spreads to the rest of the team.

I don't get the vibe that anybody dislikes each other; there's a brotherly relationship IMO. It's just immense frustration, and that's why it's seeping out like this.

[burlydee]

Am I the only one who doesn't care that Jimmy used profanity? He's a grown ass man, and occasionally frustrated people are going to have outbursts. No work environment is all sunshine and rainbows.

Do you curse your bosses out?

No, I don't, but the circumstances are different. I'm in the military, while Butler is in the NBA. And the report never said he cursed them out, it said he used profanity, so it could have been in the form of an adjective. Like, "We need to play f---ing harder!" NBA players swear all the time, so it's part of the culture. There are plenty of work situations though where people rub each other the wrong way or have disagreements, and they still do excellent work.

Michael Jordan used to tell his teammates that if they didn't give their all in practice then he would kick their ass. I'm sure that he cursed out Phil Jackson when Jackson told Steve Kerr to play tough defense on Jordan and didn't call any fouls. These guys spend a lot of time together and when losses happen certain outbursts are inevitable. It's not the end of the world.

I agree its not the end of the world but I think using profanity at your new coach and the recent media outburst, is a supreme sign of disrespect. I would love to hear the context of his comments. Swearing in a film session and swearing on the court are two diferent things. Telling someone how to do their job usually doesn't come off well. MJ and Phil Jackson spent years together, even before Phil became coach. There was a relationship. Jimmy and Hoiberg don't strike me as being particularly close. He shouldn't have went to the media with this. Not the end of the world, but it isn't normal either. I was watching the Raps-Kings game last night and they started talking about it. If this stuff was happening all the time it wouldn't be fodder for local news broadcasts.

[NeckOfOladipo]

The team is not functioning together, but let's assume the info in the report is true. You're okay with it?

Ideally, you don't want those things to happen, but I think they probably aren't that uncommon, from other guys beside just Jimmy too. The team didn't punish him for them, that we know of, so they can't have been seen as that disruptive.

He should simmer down a bit, and when this leadership transition plays out, one way or the other, he probably will.

But we are still in a transition phase right now I think. To see if Jimmy can become the team leader or if it will just lead to more turmoil.

There is not really a situation where Jimmy's tone/message/emphasis will work, considering that he is not a superstar player. Hell, most of the superstars in this league would see negative returns saying what he said.

[NeckOfOladipo]

Am I the only one who doesn't care that Jimmy used profanity? He's a grown ass man, and occasionally frustrated people are going to have outbursts. No work environment is all sunshine and rainbows.

Do you curse your bosses out?

No, I don't, but the circumstances are different. I'm in the military, while Butler is in the NBA. And the report never said he cursed them out, it said he used profanity, so it could have been in the form of an adjective. Like, "We need to play f---ing harder!" NBA players swear all the time, so it's part of the culture. There are plenty of work situations though where people rub each other the wrong way or have disagreements, and they still do excellent work.

Michael Jordan used to tell his teammates that if they didn't give their all in practice then he would kick their ass. I'm sure that he cursed out Phil Jackson when Jackson told Steve Kerr to play tough defense on Jordan and didn't call any fouls. These guys spend a lot of time together and when losses happen certain outbursts are inevitable. It's not the end of the world.

Are you another person who doesn't understand the monumental gap in privilege and skill between Butler and Jordan?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Indomitable]

No way Jimmy wants to be traded or is asking for a trade. He just resigned. He knew about Fred when he resigned.

I really think this all boils down to Rose.

EXPLAIN pls

The assumptions in this thread are wild. WHY does this boil down to rose?

Why? Because Rose is the player that needs to be coached harder. Do people really think that Jimmy thinks Noah or Taj needs to get coached tougher or need to get called out? I mean maybe he is referring to Niko, Pau or Doug but does coaching those players harder really impact the team mentality?

There is obviously more than one reason why the Hoiberg offense and general philosophy isn't working but it starts with the PG (and I don't want to hear that his philosophy is working because they are a .600 team, if you don't think that this team has issues than there is no point in discussing this). It starts with the so-called leader who still gets announced last in intros, still makes his BS pep talk pre-game and still has the ball in his hands at the end of the games.

There is already a rift between Jimmy and Rose. That has been documented and it is most likely true. The same way the rumors of VDN and Paxson and the rumors of Thibs and management became true. That tension has been building for a while and continued into training camp with Rose's comments about his contract (which we know Jimmy didn't appreciate). We get a new coach who implements a new fast paced offense that the PG doesn't run. Not only does he not run it he basically hasn't tried the entire season (except a few games) and stands in the corner. Does Hoiberg bench Rose for not only being historically awful but not running the offense? Does he reduce his minutes? Does he pull him aside and put him in his place in private or in the locker room? Quite the contrary. He publicly makes excuses for him. It has been years and years of Rose being coddled by the team. It has been years and years of Jimmy busting his ass. Yet, Rose is still getting announced last. Rose is still doing his pre-game pep talk to appear to be the leader and the alpha. Rose is still getting the ball at the end of games which honestly defies logic. Jimmy is fed up. He wants Hoiberg to call the guy out the same way that this board calls him out and goes crazy when we watch him play. Not saying that it has to be in public but how can everyone in the world see that Rose isn't pushing the ball, that Rose isn't playing aggressive and that Rose has held the team back while he is trying to "recover" and the only one who doesn't realize it is Rose. All Rose can say is that it is going to be scary when he gets his rhythm or when he gets his confidence. Why does everyone else needs to suffer during that process that looks like it may never end?

And as much as Noah loves Rose and would never say anything, he has alluded to the same with his comments. When he said the other night that, "the right people are leading this team". He was referring to the fact that Rose actually put forth effort and had a decent game. The whole team is conscious of what is going on.

If I was in Jimmy's shoes I would be pissed too. And that doesn't mean I agree with his comments. I don't think he should have gone public with his comments and I think he should have pulled Fred aside and individual players aside and kept it in house. But I appreciate him trying to be a leader. Somebody has to.

Wow you have a lot of anger

[RebuildaBulls]

I don't really like Butlers leadership style but let's hope it works and they respond

And Butler is no Jordan he can't rule with an Iron fist. The guy thinks he's bigger than he really is

[bennjuiced34]

Well there has to be a leadership balance. If Jimmy is insistent that he's willing to be the bad cop, we need a good cop. That's how Michael and Scottie did it. Whether it's Rose or Jo, one of those two has to balance out what Jimmy is doing.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[Ice Man]

Are you another person who doesn't understand the monumental gap in privilege and skill between Butler and Jordan?

Jimmy understands the difference. He hasn't punched Doug in the head. Or thrown a ball into Noah's face.

[Indomitable]

The team is not functioning together, but let's assume the info in the report is true. You're okay with it?

Ideally, you don't want those things to happen, but I think they probably aren't that uncommon, from other guys beside just Jimmy too. The team didn't punish him for them, that we know of, so they can't have been seen as that disruptive.

He should simmer down a bit, and when this leadership transition plays out, one way or the other, he probably will.

But we are still in a transition phase right now I think. To see if Jimmy can become the team leader or if it will just lead to more turmoil.

There is not really a situation where Jimmy's tone/message/emphasis will work, considering that he is not a superstar player. Hell, most of the superstars in this league would see negative returns saying what he said.

Pretty much

[bennjuiced34]

And if Jimmy is going to be the alpha, the team has to buy into it. Interesting dynamic happening right now.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[RebuildaBulls]

Jimmy obviously didn't have full authority and calling out Fred and the team was his coup, or government takeover

[musiqsoulchild]

Are you another person who doesn't understand the monumental gap in privilege and skill between Butler and Jordan?

Jimmy understands the difference. He hasn't punched Doug in the head. Or thrown a ball into Noah's face.

There is also a monumental difference between the game in the 1980's-1990's to the game we have now.

If you are not playing, you are expected to show up in a suit. You cant use gay slurs or any slurs against anybody without consequences. And you cant mug people on court.

Well you can, but then you end up destroying a championship core - see Indiana Pacers at Detroit Palace.