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Doug on "2014 Plan"

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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#121 » by kristov » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:36 pm

coldfish wrote:+Doug.

The 2014 plan is basically awful. Any casual review of the situation can see that. I'll take it a step further. Are the Bulls really going to amnesty Boozer? Really?


Assume that Boozer's salary is the Bulls capspace for 14/15. The Bulls amnesty Boozer and retain Deng with a deal starting at 9 million and would still have 7.8 million leftover plus the room exception.Total payroll salary cap + 2.75 million + 16.8 million.(x+19.55)
With Boozer the Bulls retain Deng and sign a similar player they used the room exception in the first scenario to the MMLE.Total payroll would be salary cap + 9 million + 3.25 million(x+12.25)
In the first scenario the bulls are spending an additional 7.3 million to get rid of Boozer.Assume a similar claim like Elton Brand's 2.1 million and then your talking only an additional 5.2 million to amnesty Boozer.Seems like a small price to pay to have flexibilty in 14/15.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#122 » by Concept Coop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:38 pm

Wingy wrote:
Concept Coop wrote:
Wingy wrote:I don't see why it's so hard to move for a star since that star is going to be making Omer 3rd year money or more.

Another item that's already been discussed - who is this guy we are signing outright that's going to make a significant difference in the next 2 years? I see no one in the next 2 FA classes that fits that bill...and to get that space we're losing Taj.


I just explained why it is so hard. It's 15 million towards our books that we have to navigate.


...yeah, 2 years from now when it's a trade asset in the year we want to be making trades..and before that it's a value contract.

You have to navigate it if your plan is 2014 FAs. Again...who are your 2014 FA targets?

It's not about player X - it's about being flexible. It doesn't have to be a free agent in 2014, it can be a trade, it can be any number of things.

Say the Knicks are dumping Melo at the deadline to avoid paying massive amounts in tax. If we can offer them some instant salary relief, we could have a shot. Asik offers them nothing in immediate salary relief, nor would another team be willing or able to take on a 15 million dollar contract at that point. If we have two 5 million dollar contracts, it is possible to find a 3rd team and make it work.

That is just one random example I pulled out of my head, but there are plenty of scenarios in which being flexible is a plus; in which a 15 million dollar Omer Asik is a negative.

The Bulls and Knicks BOTH let assets walk due to their final years. Do you think they were both wrong and just didn't understand as well as you do?
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#123 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:38 pm

coldfish wrote:+Doug.

The 2014 plan is basically awful.


The plan, that you have no idea what it is beyond the fact that it doesn't include Omer Asik, is awful? In between the day you wrote this, and the beginning of the 2014 season, there will pass two trade deadlines, two NBA drafts and two NBA free agent periods.

Any casual review of the situation can see that.


How about a detailed review?
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#124 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:42 pm

IMO, What I am observing is people are looking at through their own lens to justify what the Bulls are doing and that's what the Bulls FO is doing.
The other side might be doing the same thing too but what they are talking about is based on a little bit of history.
1. Bulls haven't signed a superstar in FA or have traded for one in the last 15 years for whatever reason. So, any plan depending on that has to be made super fail-proof rather than hope for the best or do what other teams have done before or assuming it will work this time.
2. The Bulls FO plan might work but it depends on too many variables which usually means something will go wrong.
3. The new CBA is being made a scapegoat for all kinds of Bulls non-moves or moves. There is a lot of truth in that but it is being over-justified for all kinds of Bulls FO action
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#125 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Concept Coop wrote:The Bulls and Knicks BOTH let assets walk due to their final years. Do you think they were both wrong and just didn't understand as well as you do?


First, I'm not happy we let Asik walk. Part of that is because I think he would have helped us contend in 2013-14, but what is done is done.

Second, you make a very good point, especially with regard to how the Lin situation evidences the overwhelming need for flexibility. Lin was going to be the Knicks starting point guard, unlike Asik. And more importantly, Lin - even on that contract - is highly likely to be a financial positive to any team that has him due to the demographic he attracts and the national sensation he caused. And despite this, and despite the fact that the Knicks have never shown any aversion to spending, and despite the fact that his loss outraged a huge section of their fan base, they let him walk.

Why? It literally could not have been because of the money. So there has to be a stand alone strategic reason.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#126 » by Concept Coop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:45 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:IMO, What I am observing is people are looking at through their own lens to justify what the Bulls are doing and that's what the Bulls FO is doing.
The other side might be doing the same thing too but what they are talking about is based on a little bit of history.
1. Bulls haven't signed a superstar in FA or have traded for one in the last 15 years for whatever reason. So, any plan depending on that has to be made super fail-proof rather than hope for the best or do what other teams have done before or assuming it will work this time.
2. The Bulls FO plan might work but it depends on too many variables which usually means something will go wrong.
3. The new CBA is being made a scapegoat for all kinds of Bulls non-moves or moves. There is a lot of truth in that but it is being over-justified for all kinds of Bulls FO action


Carlos Boozer and Ben Wallace were two very big signings.

What is this "Bulls FO Plan" you speak of? Do you have a copy I can look at?
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#127 » by kyrv » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:45 pm

DuckIII wrote:Here is my view of doug's article. Which is a dim view, though doug knows I respect him immensely as a sports writer.

Regarding his take on the Bulls' theoritical 2014 plan, even if you accept the theory of it (which is that the 2014 plan even exists, and if it does, means using the money on free agency rather than to facilitate trades, which are two very big assumptions), the numbers he uses to establish an absence of max capspace aren't even consistent with the existence of the plan. Here is his premise:

The theory goes that the Bulls will be maximum room under the cap in order to make a bunch of moves, however, it's unlikely to work out nearly so well in practice.


Here is the conclusion:

They'll have less than max cap room to fill out the team.


Here are his assumptions to reach it (with a presumed cap of $62 million):

That puts them at 39 million. Let's assume they keep Taj Gibson, now the salary is back up to 48-50 million.


(a) If the plan is to actually go after free agents, and get as much possible to do so, why would I assume the Bulls will retain Gibson at all rather than trade him for a cheaper asset (like a mid-first round pick, which he's presumably worth, or another young player with more years on his rookie deal yet to come)?

(b) Or, if that is is the plan, why would I assume that Taj's deal would be in the $10-$11 million range in that year (or in any year, frankly). For starters, that likely exceeds his market value. Which is admittedly a guess. But more importantly, if the Bulls are actually attacking a 2014 plan, they won't pay him that since it harms the plan.

(c) Or he gets $9 mil per (far more reasonable) and then the Bulls have $14 mil under the cap, which brings me to this:

Butler
Teague
2 rookies


Why am I assuming these contracts will all be on the books? The Bulls, if max space is their actual plan, will simply dump the next two first round picks, or Teague or Butler or some combination thereof, to reach their goal. They did this before when they packaged Hinrich and dumped a first to the Wizards. Prior to 2010, teams dumped first rounders to keep those salaries off the books. Its a standard strategy.

Again, its doug's assumption this is the plan, not mine. I'm just showing that if it IS the plan, the hurdles doug jumps to reach the conclusion that there will not be max space are, in my view, invalid and inconsistent with the assumption of the plan's existence.

Then doug names off possible free agents and says, essentially, "who knows?" Always a valid point regarding any plan. Such as with regard to the following supposedly superior plan:

Now instead of this, let's say the Bulls dumped Deng for Richard Jefferson and Harrison Barnes, a deal that was reportedly on the table. The Bulls would add Barnes and about four million in salary to this current core. All of a sudden things look a lot better. Maybe they also dumped Noah for Thomas Robinson, a deal that may have also been on the table, and they don't keep Taj Gibson and amnesty Boozer immediately.


The "who knows?" assumptions: (1) The first deal was even on the table at all, as reported; (2) that deal, if available, was completely without regard to who was going to be available when GS picked (i.e., if Barnes was there, as he was, GS still would have done it); (3) even more tenuously, the completely unrumored Noah for Robinson deal was available; and (4) most importantly, that Robinson and Barnes are equal to or better than Noah and Deng (which is a huge leap, given the statistical likelihood of success for any lottery pick) or that they even pan out as players of value at all.

Moreover, this speculative plan includes the use of capspace, which doug's criticism of the alleged current plan claims is not valuable because we likely won't get anyone. And if we won't get anyone, as an assumption, I'd rather have Deng and Noah at that stage than Barnes and Robinson, plus a 2013-14 plan that doesn't intentionally waste one fully healthy year of Rose's career (which doug's plan requires).

Final assumption:

If you were really playing for 2014 which of those situations is really better? The second one, it's not even close.


Which is that the "2104" plan completely ignores trying to win in 2013-14, which it obviously is not. Which is why the Bulls aren't trading Noah and Deng for lottery picks. It is not only illogical for the Bulls to burn 2 years of Rose's career, but it is also clearly not the plan. And you'd have to assume it to be the plan for any of this to make sense. Yes, the Bulls appear to have a plan that involves 2014, but it is not one geared to completely sacrifice Rose's next fully healthy year when all indications are that they will still be in a position to field a contending team that year.

In short, the 2014 plan is equivalent to the underwear gnome plan

1: Make it to 2014
2: ????
3: Championship


Which renders it identical to Doug's plan, only with less question marks, since Noah and Deng are known commodities.


This is long but more than well worth the full quote.

I can't disagree with a thing, but maybe we have a point-counterpoint and someone can detail if and where Duck is missing the mark. I think the summary would be, if I'm reading both correctly, we're making an assumption of what the 2014 plan is, and then claiming they won't follow their own plan, which is not really likely.

Also- good stuff concept coop.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#128 » by Wingy » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:45 pm

thunderspirit wrote:
Concept Coop wrote:
Wingy wrote:I don't see why it's so hard to move for a star since that star is going to be making Omer 3rd year money or more.

Another item that's already been discussed - who is this guy we are signing outright that's going to make a significant difference in the next 2 years? I see no one in the next 2 FA classes that fits that bill...and to get that space we're losing Taj.


I just explained why it is so hard. It's 15 million towards our books that we have to navigate.


...and, any time a team is above the tax apron, that team cannot execute a sign-and-trade to acquire a player. Nor can a team execute a sign-and-trade that takes them above that apron amount.

Essentially, a team above the tax apron loses the avenue by which nearly every star player has been dealt in the past decade or so -- the sign-and-trade.


I don't know if that was from the CBA or what, but that makes sense to me now vs. how Concept has been explaining it. I think the application of the NJ case is what's been throwing me off and think I see the disconnect.

I believe that rule applies to them now with the acquisition of Johnson and re-upping Humphries.

Before they shocked the world with Johnson, I believe they did have the space to sign him outright (which could in itself be inaccurate, and if he were even a FA), so I didn't see how the rule was holding up a trade prior to those circumstances. I would understand how that's applicable now.

I'm sure you guys have added up the numbers, but I'd rather look at it myself, but with this clarification I see where you're coming from now.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#129 » by kyrv » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:48 pm

Concept Coop wrote:It's not about player X - it's about being flexible. It doesn't have to be a free agent in 2014, it can be a trade, it can be any number of things.
...


This is the disconnect, hopefully we can clarify this as we go in circles otherwise. Maybe we all have to sig it.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#130 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:50 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:1. Bulls haven't signed a superstar in FA or have traded for one in the last 15 years for whatever reason. So, any plan depending on that has to be made super fail-proof rather than hope for the best or do what other teams have done before or assuming it will work this time.


I'm sick to death of this oversimplification of free agency, which assumes all context is identical when that is very much not the case. Regardless, the last time the team geared up for free agency, their acquisitions helped considerably in vaulting them from barely a playoff team to an immediate title contender. "Superstars" or not.

2. The Bulls FO plan might work but it depends on too many variables which usually means something will go wrong.


As opposed to which alternative plan? doug's? What is the plan that doesn't depend on luck, variables, etc. I caution you to answer, because if you are aware of such a plan, you should not make it public and instead take it directly to an NBA front office and get yourself a sweet job.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#131 » by Bruteque » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:50 pm

Rerisen wrote:
Concept Coop wrote:If Barnes doesn't become Deng, you set yourself back. Deng is not a negative contract - when we are ready to move him, we can do so. No point in setting the team back and taking on so much risk at this stage in the process.


You have to take risk. There is no path to a title without it.

The Bulls are not going to out value Miami and beat them through Free Agency paying market value to a whole team of players, while also spending considerably less.

Just not going to happen.


Yeah, I think it is crucial to keep in mind risk for added value for this discussion. There is a very limited supply of King-Kahn-Petrie to go around in the league. Outside of that, there is no safe way to add value. You don't win trade/add value dealing in assets with firmly established value. Such transactions are essentially lateral by definition. You want to win trade/add value, you have to deal in assets whose values are not yet firmly established.

Sadly, I think that the Bulls have just turned down one of the safer bets to add value in not hedging on Asik being an elite starting 5 (by matching Asik and flipping Noah in a safe established-value-for-established-value trade).

The disconnect between the fans and the FO in risk management is actually pretty predictable. Both the fans and the FO want to go for it. We all want to make moves which maximize the Bulls' chance of reaching it. It's just that for the fans it is the championship and for Reinsdorf's team it is 1.5 rounds of playoffs.

With Rose-Noah-Deng-Boozer on the books, I think that Reinsdorf is very confident that conservative signings/trades dealing in well established value will virtually guarantee that the team reaches "it." Once Deng is gone, Boozer is moveable, and unknowns like Mirotic and 'Cats pick enter the equation, then there will be too many unknowns to play it safe, and GarPax may be able to sell Reinsdorf on some high-risk-high-reward scenarios to gun for the fans' "it." Hence, Plan 2014.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#132 » by jumpmanjay » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:52 pm

just some questions in my head- i dont have any answers, but just some things to think about

-many want kevin love. i do as well...but does this mean we get rid of taj? what would happen if we had the chance to get mirotic over when kevin love undoubtedly professes his desire to be traded to chicago?
-say we do want to get kevin love. who would we even trade for him? say you traded deng and some pieces/picks for him...who then is your SF?
-we have all been clamoring for a legit SG. if we acquire one in trade, who goes? doesnt that leave holes elsewhere? who is even a legit SG that has upside (ie not old like wade and kobe will be in 2014) and is available?

i doubt there really is a 2014 plan. i think a 2015 or 2016 plan is much better (and much more likely), to be honest. in 2015/16, we will:

-(hopefully) have mirotic
-still have a 26-27 year old drose
-have a high lotto pick from charlotte (SG?)
-noah on the final year of his contract
-maybe have signed deng (30-31) to a 2 year contract...so then we could get durant in 2016

so something like

rose
lotto sg
durant
mirotic
noah

could be trotted out in 2016.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#133 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:54 pm

kyrv wrote:I think the summary would be, if I'm reading both correctly, we're making an assumption of what the 2014 plan is, and then claiming they won't follow their own plan, which is not really likely.


That is a very good short summary of my primary point, yes.

1. State goal of plan.
2. Establish a supposed factual basis that would only exist if the plan is not followed.
3. Conclude that plan won't work as a result.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#134 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:55 pm

Concept Coop wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:IMO, What I am observing is people are looking at through their own lens to justify what the Bulls are doing and that's what the Bulls FO is doing.
The other side might be doing the same thing too but what they are talking about is based on a little bit of history.
1. Bulls haven't signed a superstar in FA or have traded for one in the last 15 years for whatever reason. So, any plan depending on that has to be made super fail-proof rather than hope for the best or do what other teams have done before or assuming it will work this time.
2. The Bulls FO plan might work but it depends on too many variables which usually means something will go wrong.
3. The new CBA is being made a scapegoat for all kinds of Bulls non-moves or moves. There is a lot of truth in that but it is being over-justified for all kinds of Bulls FO action


Carlos Boozer and Ben Wallace were two very big signings.

What is this "Bulls FO Plan" you speak of? Do you have a copy I can look at?


C'mon...I don't hate Boozer and I would love for him to succeed and I do think he is a pretty good player. But, in the big picture...he has been an absolute failure and so was Ben Wallace. I didn't mean just signing some player for big money. And, I don't mean LeBron either. That was once in a lifetime thing. Trading for a player like Gasol, Garnett who were a big piece in winning or contending.

I wish I knew the plan...To say in one sentence ...their plan is "long term flexibility" as Gar said. Aren't you detailing out one or more versions of that plan.???
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#135 » by The Bear Jew » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:55 pm

I've been saying all along that 2014 is a pipe dream. It makes no sense clearing space for a free agency that doesn't provide any guarantee or likelihood that we'll get a star. We'll need to get creative.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#136 » by BULLHITTER » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:56 pm

So there has to be a stand alone strategic reason.


.02.....idk, "strategic" can have multple inferences, but imo the idea of letting him walk for "political" reasons is quite likely as well. the knicks have 2 big money stars to placate (rightly or wrongly), and a veteran in kidd coming in; additionally, i think the knicks may not have been confident the team would embrace lin as a starter (negative press has power in ny, unlike chi), and only being exacerbated by the acquisition of the HOF'er kidd. couple that with the houston offer, AND the knicks not being averse to spending, i'd reason they figured they could get somebody to play the position as well as lin, sacrifice the off court residual income and keep peace in the house.

they look to be adding defensive role guys which can only help. politically speaking, stability would have to be (assuming the knick folk aren't blind) a high priority after their playoff appearance. a conflict by jealous superstars early in the season over lin's dollars couldn't turn out well.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#137 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:00 pm

DuckIII wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:1. Bulls haven't signed a superstar in FA or have traded for one in the last 15 years for whatever reason. So, any plan depending on that has to be made super fail-proof rather than hope for the best or do what other teams have done before or assuming it will work this time.


I'm sick to death of this oversimplification of free agency, which assumes all context is identical when that is very much not the case. Regardless, the last time the team geared up for free agency, their acquisitions helped considerably in vaulting them from barely a playoff team to an immediate title contender. "Superstars" or not.

Nobody said that..that's your assumption. What I am saying is this is the truth for most NBA teams. I did say that it is for whatever reason(Bulls fault or not). Please don't assume that everybody is just trying to blame the Bulls FO for every failure in FA/trade not happening. The reality is that signing a superstar in FA is very less likely to succeed because of the availability of those guys and trading for them involves a lot of luck and planning(means a collection of assets).

2. The Bulls FO plan might work but it depends on too many variables which usually means something will go wrong.


As opposed to which alternative plan? doug's? What is the plan that doesn't depend on luck, variables, etc. I caution you to answer, because if you are aware of such a plan, you should not make it public and instead take it directly to an NBA front office and get yourself a sweet job.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#138 » by Concept Coop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:00 pm

Bruteque wrote:It's just that for the fans it is the championship and for Reinsdorf's team it is 1.5 rounds of playoffs.

What you mean is:
"Fans (I) know what to do to win a championship - ownership doesn't."

That is silly to me. The Bulls FO has done a great job and clearly wants to win a championship more than us fans do - it's just enjoyment for us. To them, it's much more.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#139 » by dougthonus » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:00 pm

As opposed to which alternative plan? doug's? What is the plan that doesn't depend on luck, variables, etc. I caution you to answer, because if you are aware of such a plan, you should not make it public and instead take it directly to an NBA front office and get yourself a sweet job.


To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the Bulls should blow up the whole roster in order to tank and compete in 2014. I'm suggesting that the Bulls should either have gone for it in 2014 or looked to maximize their talent now.

What they have presently done is taken a "tread water" approach while slowly sinking. They have seen assets walk away without getting a return on them or gaining flexibility from them. In doing so, they are relying on the same "figure out the next move when it becomes available" approach they have in the past, but by waiting they have fewer assets to accomplish "the next move".

If they aggressively kept their assets or maximized their value then they could have treaded water in a better way or attempted to win now in a better way or if they really wanted to go to a cap space plan they could have done that in a better way. The way they choose didn't maximize their odds to win now or later or even play a true middle ground. It maximized profits and then has been wrapped up and resold (by ESPN at least) as a strategy of building for the future.

It isn't. They aren't making cost cutting moves now to build for the future, they're making them to cut costs.
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Re: Doug on "2014 Plan" 

Post#140 » by Concept Coop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:05 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:C'mon...I don't hate Boozer and I would love for him to succeed and I do think he is a pretty good player. But, in the big picture...he has been an absolute failure and so was Ben Wallace. I didn't mean just signing some player for big money. And, I don't mean LeBron either. That was once in a lifetime thing. Trading for a player like Gasol, Garnett who were a big piece in winning or contending.

I wish I knew the plan...To say in one sentence ...their plan is "long term flexibility" as Gar said. Aren't you detailing out one or more versions of that plan.???

They were failures, sure. But they were major signings at the time. They were actually accepted as good moves by the media and fanbase alike. Don't let hindsite tell you the Bulls won't make major signings, or that nobody will come here, because the big 3 wanted to play in Miami, Duncan wanted to stay put, and McGrady chose the Magic.
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