Would the Bulls 'reset' and trade Jimmy Butler this offseason ? What would Celtics need to give you?

[TheStig]

He tried to implement the whole package in the preseason and it failed.

Exactly, you don't hire a newbie coach for a fully vet team. This is exactly what happens. But he didn't do himself any favors either.

I don't recall Jimmy ever calling out Thibs like this. Infact, I don't really recall Jimmy questioning Thibs. I could have missed it.

I don't think that implementation strategy is unsound. It's the pre-season. See what they can handle.

Why hire a retread coach if the goal is to move in a new direction? It seems like your main gripe is with management, which is a separate discussion.

Back in 2014 Jimmy said he was being underutilized on offense, and also said he was worn out by the time the playoffs rolled around because of minutes.

See that's where I disagree. It's one thing to ask them to push the pace and put in some new sets. It's another thing to implement a new system that wasn't to your players strengths. Successful coaches don't just walk in and put in their system. That's what the D'Antoni's of the world do. Honestly, I have to ask myself if he even watched video of last years team.

My gripe with management is that they completely misjudged and mismanaged the situation. And because of that, the team got significantly worse. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Fred has flopped. He was given the same roster as Thib's and got full reign. He fell on his face all on his own.

I'm not familiar with that. And frankly, it obviously was nowhere as serious as with Fred.

[kingkirk]

I'd do the deal. Sue me.

[Shill]

See that's where I disagree. It's one thing to ask them to push the pace and put in some new sets. It's another thing to implement a new system that wasn't to your players strengths. Successful coaches don't just walk in and put in their system. That's what the D'Antoni's of the world do. Honestly, I have to ask myself if he even watched video of last years team.

My gripe with management is that they completely misjudged and mismanaged the situation. And because of that, the team got significantly worse. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Fred has flopped. He was given the same roster as Thib's and got full reign. He fell on his face all on his own.

I'm not familiar with that. And frankly, it obviously was nowhere as serious as with Fred.

Of course they do. The question is how long it takes to get it running smoothly.

I don't think Fred has flopped. The team was listless for Thibs last year, too. And the injury situation has been worse this year.

[Rerisen]

Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.

People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.

Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.

Very good post.

In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.

Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.

Two good posts. Problem is I think Jimmy has gone "Hollywood as Hell."

If any of these rumors are true, then Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens don't appear to think so.

And judging by the team they have built and turned around, they seem pretty good judges of players.

In their POV they would simply be raiding the best (and maybe only really good) asset on a totally dysfunctional organization.

[rtblues]

Admittedly, didn't read all 7 pages of the thread, but,
Jimmy Butler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ben Simmons*

*In that Oklahoma game, Heild outplayed him, big-time, and of more concern, he seemed timid, and was
not imposing his will, changing the game, or even being looked for in the offense. Essentially a non-factor.

[TheStig]

See that's where I disagree. It's one thing to ask them to push the pace and put in some new sets. It's another thing to implement a new system that wasn't to your players strengths. Successful coaches don't just walk in and put in their system. That's what the D'Antoni's of the world do. Honestly, I have to ask myself if he even watched video of last years team.

My gripe with management is that they completely misjudged and mismanaged the situation. And because of that, the team got significantly worse. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Fred has flopped. He was given the same roster as Thib's and got full reign. He fell on his face all on his own.

I'm not familiar with that. And frankly, it obviously was nowhere as serious as with Fred.

Of course they do. The question is how long it takes to get it running smoothly.

I don't think Fred has flopped. The team was listless for Thibs last year, too. And the injury situation has been worse this year.

This team doesn't look listless to you? It certainly does to me. There is always been an injury situation with this group. More or less, the results have always been better to do.

I think the team was listless because the FO started undermining Thibs but regardless of cause or effect, this team was never barely hanging onto the playoffs.

[Shill]

This team doesn't look listless to you? It certainly does to me. There is always been an injury situation with this group. More or less, the results have always been better to do.

I think the team was listless because the FO started undermining Thibs but regardless of cause or effect, this team was never barely hanging onto the playoffs.

The team absolutely looks listless. I'm just saying the effort level didn't backslide this season. It started last year for whatever reason.

[TheStig]

This team doesn't look listless to you? It certainly does to me. There is always been an injury situation with this group. More or less, the results have always been better to do.

I think the team was listless because the FO started undermining Thibs but regardless of cause or effect, this team was never barely hanging onto the playoffs.

The team absolutely looks listless. I'm just saying the effort level didn't backslide this season. It started last year for whatever reason.

Well yeah, I think that naturally happens when the FO undermines the coach. But regardless, they still mainly bought in and gave a damn when it counted. I just don't see that from this team.

But Fred came hyped up and fully backed and their buy in and intesnity fell off the cliff. That's why he's a flop.

[HoopsterJones]

Jimmy's BFF Marky Mark would love to see him play for the Celtics.

But in all seriousness, I love Jimmy as a player. He just appears to have the work ethic and passionate drive to be improve and be better. That being said, he's not untradeable if the right package came along. If it's the #1 pick this season AND the Brooklyn swap pick for 2017 (a heralded talented class) they would have to definitely consider it.

Getting another player like Smart or Bradley would be great too.

[errisal]

2016 Brooklyn pick unprotected (currently#4)
2016 Dallas pick
2016 Celtics pick
2018 Brooklyn pick unprotected
Avery Bradley
Amir Johnson (Salary)

for Jimmy Butler+ filler.

intriguing

Three number 1 picks plus Avery Johnson would do the trick only if the Bulls were re-starting and getting rid of Rose as well. Pau wouldn't be resigned, Taj would be traded and Jo would be the lone holdover to satisfy the fans. This would mean the Bulls would be solely looking at becoming a young rebuild with Niko and Doug as the main characters. As a fan don't know if I would do this.

[kulaz3000]

I've been saying this since last season, but at some point Jimmy Butler is going to go down the path of Wade. Yeah, overall he will be a good player and remain so, but he will continue to miss games consistently and more frequently, just based on how physical and hard he plays every time he is on the floor.

Of course injuries are part of the game, and can't be avoided at times, but it's his style of play which isn't going to lead into a long, and healthy career, and if we can get a massive haul for him, I say go for it and don't even bother looking back. Yeah, it will suck for about 2-3 season, but in the long run, I say we'd come out winners by a long mile.

[Shill]

This team doesn't look listless to you? It certainly does to me. There is always been an injury situation with this group. More or less, the results have always been better to do.

I think the team was listless because the FO started undermining Thibs but regardless of cause or effect, this team was never barely hanging onto the playoffs.

The team absolutely looks listless. I'm just saying the effort level didn't backslide this season. It started last year for whatever reason.

Well yeah, I think that naturally happens when the FO undermines the coach. But regardless, they still mainly bought in and gave a damn when it counted. I just don't see that from this team.

But Fred came hyped up and fully backed and their buy in and intesnity fell off the cliff. That's why he's a flop.

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

[MrSparkle]

I've been saying this since last season, but at some point Jimmy Butler is going to go down the path of Wade. Yeah, overall he will be a good player and remain so, but he will continue to miss games consistently and more frequently, just based on how physical and hard he plays every time he is on the floor.

Of course injuries are part of the game, and can't be avoided at times, but it's his style of play which isn't going to lead into a long, and healthy career, and if we can get a massive haul for him, I say go for it and don't even bother looking back. Yeah, it will suck for about 2-3 season, but in the long run, I say we'd come out winners by a long mile.

That's not a bad assessment. I mean, we are looking at 4 years of good basketball from him, but you're right, he's definitely a guy whose efficiency will dramatically drop as the injuries compile and athleticism declines. Hell, we're seeing it with Lebron despite him being one of the greatest players of all-time.

I agree with the notion of trading him for a "massive haul." Personally, I doubt that teams are willing to pay that much for him. OP's proposal is quite the ransom. Whoever gets him, they're going to still need a stacked team left in order to contend with Jimmy. So in Boston's case, I don't think acquiring Jimmy makes sense if they're losing a combination of starters like Bradley, Smart and/or Crowder... let alone multiple unprotected picks. They're literally trading the farm at that point, for somebody who isn't Lebron/Durant/Curry.

In my honest option, I think Ainge would be willing to part with just 1 of those 3 guys, and it'd either be the lowest ceiling guy (Crowder or Bradley) or the more injury-prone player (Smart). I don't think you get a combination of them. The rest would be menial filler, because let's be honest -- if we're talking fair-value, a top-5 pick alone could basically be a fair swap for Jimmy if the player you want is in this draft. Boston is winning games with their current roster; they don't accomplish anything by gutting the team. They'd want to add Jimmy into their winning formula, not watch Olynyk and Sullinger become their secondary options. Isaiah Thomas isn't really an all-star to build around. He's best-suited as a 6th man IMO.

[Ice Man]

I don't think the Celts would give up Avery plus those assets, but yes I would do that. As a Jimmy fanboy.

[TheStig]

The team absolutely looks listless. I'm just saying the effort level didn't backslide this season. It started last year for whatever reason.

Well yeah, I think that naturally happens when the FO undermines the coach. But regardless, they still mainly bought in and gave a damn when it counted. I just don't see that from this team.

But Fred came hyped up and fully backed and their buy in and intesnity fell off the cliff. That's why he's a flop.

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

The 2014-2015 Chicago Bulls were the model of Health.

2014-15 Chicago Bulls Injuries
DATE PLAYER POS INJURY
10/29/14 Jimmy Butler G/F Sprained left thumb
10/31/14 Derrick Rose PG Left Ankle Sprain
11/1/14 Taj Gibson F/C Sprained ankle
11/4/14 Joakim Noah F/C Flu
11/7/14 Derrick Rose PG Sprained ankle
11/13/14 Derrick Rose PG Strained left hamstring
11/17/14 Pau Gasol F/C Strained calf
11/21/14 Kirk Hinrich G Chest contusion
11/25/14 Derrick Rose PG Left hamstring
12/2/14 Doug McDermott SF Sore right knee
12/14/14 Joakim Noah F/C Sore ankle
12/18/14 Derrick Rose PG Illness
12/18/14 Taj Gibson F/C Right ankle
12/23/14 Kirk Hinrich G Left hamstring strain
1/3/15 Mike Dunleavy G/F Right ankle sprain
1/10/15 Derrick Rose PG Left knee soreness
1/16/15 Joakim Noah F/C Sprained ankle
1/27/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Illness
2/7/15 Kirk Hinrich G Toe
2/12/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Right shoulder strain
2/21/15 Kirk Hinrich G Illness
2/27/15 Pau Gasol F/C Illness
2/27/15 Taj Gibson F/C Left ankle sprain
3/1/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Left elbow sprain
3/11/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee soreness
3/23/15 Joakim Noah F/C General soreness
3/25/15 Doug McDermott SF Sore back
4/9/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Strained calf
4/13/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee tendinitis
4/13/15 Kirk Hinrich G Sore left foot

[Shill]

Well yeah, I think that naturally happens when the FO undermines the coach. But regardless, they still mainly bought in and gave a damn when it counted. I just don't see that from this team.

But Fred came hyped up and fully backed and their buy in and intesnity fell off the cliff. That's why he's a flop.

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

The 2014-2015 Chicago Bulls were the model of Health.

2014-15 Chicago Bulls Injuries
DATE PLAYER POS INJURY
10/29/14 Jimmy Butler G/F Sprained left thumb
10/31/14 Derrick Rose PG Left Ankle Sprain
11/1/14 Taj Gibson F/C Sprained ankle
11/4/14 Joakim Noah F/C Flu
11/7/14 Derrick Rose PG Sprained ankle
11/13/14 Derrick Rose PG Strained left hamstring
11/17/14 Pau Gasol F/C Strained calf
11/21/14 Kirk Hinrich G Chest contusion
11/25/14 Derrick Rose PG Left hamstring
12/2/14 Doug McDermott SF Sore right knee
12/14/14 Joakim Noah F/C Sore ankle
12/18/14 Derrick Rose PG Illness
12/18/14 Taj Gibson F/C Right ankle
12/23/14 Kirk Hinrich G Left hamstring strain
1/3/15 Mike Dunleavy G/F Right ankle sprain
1/10/15 Derrick Rose PG Left knee soreness
1/16/15 Joakim Noah F/C Sprained ankle
1/27/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Illness
2/7/15 Kirk Hinrich G Toe
2/12/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Right shoulder strain
2/21/15 Kirk Hinrich G Illness
2/27/15 Pau Gasol F/C Illness
2/27/15 Taj Gibson F/C Left ankle sprain
3/1/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Left elbow sprain
3/11/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee soreness
3/23/15 Joakim Noah F/C General soreness
3/25/15 Doug McDermott SF Sore back
4/9/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Strained calf
4/13/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee tendinitis
4/13/15 Kirk Hinrich G Sore left foot

Obviously they weren't, but we have considerably more missed games this year.

I didn't even mention Dunleavy.

[TheStig]

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

The 2014-2015 Chicago Bulls were the model of Health.

2014-15 Chicago Bulls Injuries
DATE PLAYER POS INJURY
10/29/14 Jimmy Butler G/F Sprained left thumb
10/31/14 Derrick Rose PG Left Ankle Sprain
11/1/14 Taj Gibson F/C Sprained ankle
11/4/14 Joakim Noah F/C Flu
11/7/14 Derrick Rose PG Sprained ankle
11/13/14 Derrick Rose PG Strained left hamstring
11/17/14 Pau Gasol F/C Strained calf
11/21/14 Kirk Hinrich G Chest contusion
11/25/14 Derrick Rose PG Left hamstring
12/2/14 Doug McDermott SF Sore right knee
12/14/14 Joakim Noah F/C Sore ankle
12/18/14 Derrick Rose PG Illness
12/18/14 Taj Gibson F/C Right ankle
12/23/14 Kirk Hinrich G Left hamstring strain
1/3/15 Mike Dunleavy G/F Right ankle sprain
1/10/15 Derrick Rose PG Left knee soreness
1/16/15 Joakim Noah F/C Sprained ankle
1/27/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Illness
2/7/15 Kirk Hinrich G Toe
2/12/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Right shoulder strain
2/21/15 Kirk Hinrich G Illness
2/27/15 Pau Gasol F/C Illness
2/27/15 Taj Gibson F/C Left ankle sprain
3/1/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Left elbow sprain
3/11/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee soreness
3/23/15 Joakim Noah F/C General soreness
3/25/15 Doug McDermott SF Sore back
4/9/15 Jimmy Butler G/F Strained calf
4/13/15 Joakim Noah F/C Left knee tendinitis
4/13/15 Kirk Hinrich G Sore left foot

Obviously they weren't, but we have considerably more missed games this year.

I didn't even mention Dunleavy.

Last year was better than this year but there was a year with 10 games of Rose and Deng traded about 30 games into the year and they still had a better record with DJ leading the team in scoring. So I think this team has had years where they have done more with less.

[Future Coach]

I don't think the Celts would give up Avery plus those assets, but yes I would do that. As a Jimmy fanboy.

Yeah I doubt that offer would be on the table. If it were, it shouldn't be for very long as that is a great return for any guard in the league not named Curry or Westbrook, and even then it is a consideration...

[Shill]

Last year was better than this year but there was a year with 10 games of Rose and Deng traded about 30 games into the year and they still had a better record with DJ leading the team in scoring. So I think this team has had years where they have done more with less.

Thibs is a better coach than Fred at this point, but I just disagree that Fred is already a miserable failure who can't improve, especially if he gets more guys that fit his system.

[BrooklynBulls]

Last year was better than this year but there was a year with 10 games of Rose and Deng traded about 30 games into the year and they still had a better record with DJ leading the team in scoring. So I think this team has had years where they have done more with less.

Thibs is a better coach than Fred at this point, but I just disagree that Fred is already a miserable failure who can't improve, especially if he gets more guys that fit his system.

You'd think that you'd either hire a coach who fits the players already on the team, or trade for players who do fit the system. But that's why you're a keyboard warrior and GarPax get paid the big bucks. So you don't HAVE to think. Or watch. Or care anymore.