The Zach Lavine Problem

League Circles · Post #121 » by **League Circles** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:55 am

nitetrain8603 wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

Why does no one ask this questions to GarPax?

Would love to see their answer. Probably something idiotic.

I've never felt more down as a Bulls fan in all my years following the team.

When it came to Dunn, Paxson admitted that Dunn had a bad year last year, but said he hopes in the Bulls new up tempo offense, that it would be more free flowing and allow for Dunn to thrive. Basically, pulling the blame game on Thibs' offense again, completely ignoring the fact that point guards thrive in his system.

Pax also was on his BS indicating that Dunn will be playing multiple positions. (I hate that whole, let's play a PG at SG regardless if that guy has never played that position before)

I'm pretty sure Pax talked about Dunn guarding multiple positions. Which, you know, is kind of important these days with all the switching and cross matches.

But continue on with your never ending years long crusade against every word they say. It's what makes you you!

chrispatrick · Post #122 » by **chrispatrick** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:01 am

DarthDiggler69 wrote:Zach played 6 minutes even AFTER he tore his ACL!!! I dont know his diagnosis but maybe it wasn't fully torn

Watch on YouTube

Not all that uncommon (I believe Rondo played for even longer after his tear some years back, Olandis Gary finished a football game playing running back, and a couple cases).

I am no fan of LaVine given his impact on his team has been statistically negative, but this is probably a good sign that there wasn't too much else that got damaged in the knee aside from the ACL.

chrispatrick · Post #123 » by **chrispatrick** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:04 am

TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

We either have nobody in the front office who looks at advanced stats or we do and they know that LaVine is perfect for entertaining while tanking.

LordBaldric · Post #124 » by **LordBaldric** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:15 am

TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

I can tell you why. Zach isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and has poor court awareness. The Wolves tried playing him as a PG his first 1 and 1/2 seasons and it was a disaster- he just doesn't have the mental tools for the position. After he was switched to SG he started playing much better as he could just focus on getting his own instead of facilitating. A lot of Wolves fans think he would be best as a sixth man heater off the bench for this reason, but we'll see. Obviously the Bulls will have a wide latitude to experiment with him. But don't play him at PG unless the tank really needs to be put into high gear.

RebuildaBulls · Post #125 » by **RebuildaBulls** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:15 am

Bulls should not use Lavine as a PG, he should be an off the dribble SG with occasional isos. I can actually see him and Valentine play off each other

step · Post #126 » by **step** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:45 am

Rerisen wrote:Chrissake do we have an analytics team? I know we do, maybe they aren't any good, or our old gumshoe GMs refuse to listen to them.

I don't know where our problem lies... you can point to the GMs, but then explain our medical team? They're very highly regarded in the medical field, but have been horrendous in recent history.

kyrv wrote:
patagonia wrote:What's the problem? If he plays really well then he'll be worth the contact and if he doesn't then he won't get a max deal and it will be easier for the Bulls to match.

Bingo. There is no problem.

The team is not being built around Lavine.

No, but he's a significant piece of this trade and he could potentially be lost after a year. But I guess we should be used to our team throwing away assets by now.

Lavine is coming back from an ACL injury, he has no bargaining power in terms of contract talks.

Look at free agency last year and the contracts given. If he's utter garbage and doesn't return to form, then that makes the return for Butler even worse.

BullsFTW · Post #127 » by **BullsFTW** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:06 am

Ralphb07 wrote:
FriedRise wrote:

Read on Twitter

What was his original timeline? Are we talking about around AS break?

Hearing around December

If he's ahead of schedule he could be ready by the start of the regular season.

xpmar9x · Post #128 » by **xpmar9x** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:07 am

MrSparkle wrote:I'm just baffled by this. To the max.

I mean, we've seen countless examples of ACL-injured players becoming shadows of themselves (or just never reaching their potential):

Rose
Rondo
Nate Robinson
Rubio
J. Parker
Gallinari
Shaun Livingston

The list goes on.

Hilarious that Pax said we got a "fantastic young lotto player." Give me a break. It's basically gonna be a countdown to the next time, unless he seriously adjusts and reduces his athletic game, and hopefully it's not after the contract extension.

Can't wait until we offer a max deal for Jabari next summer 8-)

kyrv · Post #129 » by **kyrv** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:40 am

fleet wrote:
IcemanGervin wrote:
FriedRise wrote:

Read on Twitter

What was his original timeline? Are we talking about around AS break?

Normal timetable is 9 months, which would be sometime in November

No word on comfort and business meetings concerns. The Bulls are learning

(RealGM not responsible for gratuitous comments made by old men)

Fleet. Dude. Let's not rush him back.

Jcool0 · Post #130 » by **Jcool0** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:44 am

LordBaldric wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

I can tell you why. Zach isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and has poor court awareness. The Wolves tried playing him as a PG his first 1 and 1/2 seasons and it was a disaster- he just doesn't have the mental tools for the position. After he was switched to SG he started playing much better as he could just focus on getting his own instead of facilitating.A lot of Wolves fans think he would be best as a sixth man heater off the bench for this reason, but we'll see. Obviously the Bulls will have a wide latitude to experiment with him. But don't play him at PG unless the tank really needs to be put into high gear.

You can but no one is going to take it seriously.

kyrv · Post #131 » by **kyrv** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:44 am

League Circles wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
Why does no one ask this questions to GarPax?

Would love to see their answer. Probably something idiotic.

I've never felt more down as a Bulls fan in all my years following the team.

When it came to Dunn, Paxson admitted that Dunn had a bad year last year, but said he hopes in the Bulls new up tempo offense, that it would be more free flowing and allow for Dunn to thrive. Basically, pulling the blame game on Thibs' offense again, completely ignoring the fact that point guards thrive in his system.

Pax also was on his BS indicating that Dunn will be playing multiple positions. (I hate that whole, let's play a PG at SG regardless if that guy has never played that position before)

I'm pretty sure Pax talked about Dunn guarding multiple positions. Which, you know, is kind of important these days with all the switching and cross matches.

But continue on with your never ending years long crusade against every word they say. It's what makes you you!

You are correct. Dunn guarded multiple positions last season. Thibs likes him.

My question to who you quoted (nite?) is, what rookie PG ever thrived under Thibs???

Remember when the Bulls needed a SG against the Cavs? Thibs had him on the bench. Dumb###. Butler didn't thrive as a rookie on a team desparate for a SG.

ThreeMileAllan · Post #132 » by **ThreeMileAllan** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:50 am

No one is discussing the actual question here. What will Lavine get paid? Honestly i hope we can sign him to a Curry like contract. Below the rookie max. I think the max will be 25 million. So maybe put him at 21 or 22?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

R3AL1TY · Post #133 » by **R3AL1TY** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:18 am

Funkman7 wrote:No one is discussing the actual question here. What will Lavine get paid? Honestly i hope we can sign him to a Curry like contract. Below the rookie max. I think the max will be 25 million. So maybe put him at 21 or 22?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

If he comes back looking as good or better than his previous seasons, I can see him getting 20-25M/yr. If he comes back subpar, 13-16M.

johnnyvann840 · Post #134 » by **johnnyvann840** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:18 am

Jcool0 wrote:
LordBaldric wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

I can tell you why. Zach isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and has poor court awareness. The Wolves tried playing him as a PG his first 1 and 1/2 seasons and it was a disaster- he just doesn't have the mental tools for the position. After he was switched to SG he started playing much better as he could just focus on getting his own instead of facilitating.A lot of Wolves fans think he would be best as a sixth man heater off the bench for this reason, but we'll see. Obviously the Bulls will have a wide latitude to experiment with him. But don't play him at PG unless the tank really needs to be put into high gear.

You can but no one is going to take it seriously.

I do, because he's spot on here. Not the brightest kid. A nice kid, but not gonna be on Jeopardy any time soon.

Sinistar6 · Post #135 » by **Sinistar6** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:07 pm

chrispatrick wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

We either have nobody in the front office who looks at advanced stats or we do and they know that LaVine is perfect for entertaining while tanking.

What metric do you use to see the team does better offensively with him off the court?

TheSuzerain · Post #136 » by **TheSuzerain** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:07 pm

Sinistar6 wrote:
chrispatrick wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:Lavine's perceived value is his offense.

Yet for all 3 of his seasons in the league, his team has performed worse offensively when he is in the game.

Why is that?

We either have nobody in the front office who looks at advanced stats or we do and they know that LaVine is perfect for entertaining while tanking.

What metric do you use to see the team does better offensively with him off the court?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2017/on-off/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2016/on-off/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2015/on-off/

Notice how Team O-Rating is has a negative On-Off each year for Lavine.

RememberLu · Post #137 » by **RememberLu** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:09 pm

All the stuff they're saying about LaVine now is what we heard about Derrick Rose throughout his rehab.

"He's ahead of schedule, he's a rehab monster! He put on 25 lbs of muscle, his vertical is as high as ever!"

How are bulls fans falling for this crap again. You're never gonna be able to watch this kid without wondering when the other shoe will drop

Jcool0 · Post #138 » by **Jcool0** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:19 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
LordBaldric wrote:I can tell you why. Zach isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and has poor court awareness. The Wolves tried playing him as a PG his first 1 and 1/2 seasons and it was a disaster- he just doesn't have the mental tools for the position. After he was switched to SG he started playing much better as he could just focus on getting his own instead of facilitating.A lot of Wolves fans think he would be best as a sixth man heater off the bench for this reason, but we'll see. Obviously the Bulls will have a wide latitude to experiment with him. But don't play him at PG unless the tank really needs to be put into high gear.

You can but no one is going to take it seriously.

I do, because he's spot on here. Not the brightest kid. A nice kid, but not gonna be on Jeopardy any time soon.

One problem. You cant possibly know that.

Post #139 » by **AshyLarrysDiaper** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:22 pm

Couple thoughts:

-Lavine is a different kind of athlete from Rose. Whereas Rose was about burst, Lavine is about spring. He also has a lighter bone and muscle structure. He's less reliant on torque. Which is why our experience with Derrick doesn't color my expectations for Zach.

-Maybe Lavine is ahead of schedule -- maybe not. Damned if I'm going to take his agent's word for it though. :lol:

spacemonkey · Post #140 » by **spacemonkey** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:37 pm

Shill wrote:
sh0ck wrote:Maybe you can use LaVine's injury as an excuse to sit him for a good portion of the year and slowly bring him along.

Then you can extend him for something less than the max because it would be a risk for teams to bid up his RFA status. Kind of how Milwaukee is probably going to extend Jabari Parker for much less than the Max.

This. He tore his ACL in February. He may not even be ready by the start of the season.

We have every incentive to bring him along slowly.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Sounds like a good way to endear management to the players...