Did we give up on Cameron Payne too early?

[Almost Retired]

Can't argue that Payne had a pretty tremendous game last night in a high pressure situation. About the only thing he's not doing is hitting his "3s". He proves one thing. A lot of times a player's success, or lack thereof, sometimes has more to do with the situation they find themselves in.

[erlim]

just like Paynbe though his best fit wasn't on the Bulls. He is absolutely perfect in his role for the Bucks. It can be argued that maybe we should have given up on Bobby sooner and kept Mirotic happy instead of making him run back to Europe with his tail tucked between his legs..

Maybe we could argue we gave up on Mirotic too early, didn’t he become MVP in the euroleague? Probably would have had a greater impact than Lauri.

We needed to support Mirotic in the Portis situation. That being said not sure Mirotic really was ever suited for the NBA culture. He was skilled enough to play here but I just don’t think he ever fit in. IIRC didn’t most the players side with Portis? Portis seems like a punk but maybe Mirotic was a bigger one? Not sure but I would have liked to have seen him grow with this team and I never liked crazy eyes myself.

I got the sense that Jerian Grant and Denzel Valentine were huge supporters of Portis. Hard to say; but I really dislike those guys on court performance and am not big fans, so I am biased. On the other hand, Mirotic and Pau Gasol have become special friends to this day on FC Barcelona, and the Bucks before that. Pau seems like a class act. Things might have been different if we had more veterans and didn’t have a team packed with NBDL level players back then.

[Leslie Forman]

People forget he was coming off major injury. It takes time to come to form especially if it is during your developmental years

He wasn't just coming off of it, he aggravated it again here and had to have another surgery. He was never gonna be any good after that for quite a while.

It's not Chris Paul, it's not "development," it's not being in a "good organization" (imagine saying that about Phoenix with a straight face just two or three years ago).

He just needed to get into shape. He finally is now. As much as I enjoy trashing the previous regime, this ain't on them. If anything this shows they were correct in valuing him.

[SfBull]

We gave up on Payne on the right time and should never think about resigning him,just imagine having him and Coby running the point, it'd be a case of giving up as a fan.Let Payne be happy where he's is playing well being Paul's backup pg. We need a player who can start and play consistently well at the point.The best pg available by free agency are Ball and Lowry and we should try to sign one of them.

[SfBull]

Can't argue that Payne had a pretty tremendous game last night in a high pressure situation. About the only thing he's not doing is hitting his "3s". He proves one thing. A lot of times a player's success, or lack thereof, sometimes has more to do with the situation they find themselves in.

That's it.He wouldn't have this kind of success in a lottery team like the Bulls.

[FanInTheAttic]

Just another failure of Bulls as an organization. Couldn't recognize the talent, no skill to develop a player. We surely would have had use for Payne, if not as a back up PG, but as a trade asset at least. Hopefully they will learn from past mistakes and PW gets better with the Bulls.

[TheChad708]

You're upset the Bulls didnt have CP3 to mentor him?

Just another failure of Bulls as an organization. Couldn't recognize the talent, no skill to develop a player. We surely would have had use for Payne, if not as a back up PG, but as a trade asset at least. Hopefully they will learn from past mistakes and PW gets better with the Bulls.

[FanInTheAttic]

You're upset the Bulls didnt have CP3 to mentor him?

Just another failure of Bulls as an organization. Couldn't recognize the talent, no skill to develop a player. We surely would have had use for Payne, if not as a back up PG, but as a trade asset at least. Hopefully they will learn from past mistakes and PW gets better with the Bulls.

CP3 can have a huge impact on players/team, but there must be other ways to work on player development than signing CP3 on your team. Why did the Bulls trade for Payne in the first place if they didn't have interest in developing him, and didn't believe in him as a NBA player? I recently read an article about Payne (don't remember where), apparently he needed a short period in the league in China to realize that he wants to succeed in the NBA and then a period of heavy training during the covid break to get his game going again. All this could have happened with the Bulls, but instead they gave up on him after the second practice ( or at least that's the story).

[bad knees]

Bulls were right to cut ties with Payne at the time - he was a complete disaster then. But he's better now, much better. Does almost everything that Lonzo does, only better, and at probably less than half the cost. So I would be completely fine with signing him this summer.

[Red8911]

Just another failure of Bulls as an organization. Couldn't recognize the talent, no skill to develop a player. We surely would have had use for Payne, if not as a back up PG, but as a trade asset at least. Hopefully they will learn from past mistakes and PW gets better with the Bulls.

Gar/Pax actually did recognize his talent thats why they traded for him in the first place. When Payne played for the Bulls though he was always the worst player on the court and they rightfully got rid of him. After that he got waived by another team and played in China.

Good for him for making a comeback to the NBA, he got lucky the Suns gave him that chance. Don’t blame the bulls though, he was horrible when he was here and he needed to leave. They actually held on to him too long to be honest.

[Red8911]

Bulls were right to cut ties with Payne at the time - he was a complete disaster then. But he's better now, much better. Does almost everything that Lonzo does, only better, and at probably less than half the cost. So I would be completely fine with signing him this summer.

Nope do not want him back despite his recent play.He should just stay in Phoenix. It’s working out for him there, who knows if he will be the same on another team.

[sco]

Bulls were right to cut ties with Payne at the time - he was a complete disaster then. But he's better now, much better. Does almost everything that Lonzo does, only better, and at probably less than half the cost. So I would be completely fine with signing him this summer.

Nope do not want him back despite his recent play.He should just stay in Phoenix. It’s working out for him there, who knows if he will be the same on another team.

I prefer to not sign anyone to a multi-year deal this season, but if he came cheap enough, we really have no chance at guys like Dame, Ball, Lowry and I really don't want to see Sato start or White to ever play PG again.

[bad knees]

Bulls were right to cut ties with Payne at the time - he was a complete disaster then. But he's better now, much better. Does almost everything that Lonzo does, only better, and at probably less than half the cost. So I would be completely fine with signing him this summer.

Nope do not want him back despite his recent play.He should just stay in Phoenix. It’s working out for him there, who knows if he will be the same on another team.

Not following your logic, which would suggest that we would never make a trade for a player on another team. Payne has really blossomed this year, on both sides of the ball. We saw what he did when CP3 was out, which gives comfort to the notion that his efficiency would continue with greater minutes.

Below is a comparison of the stats for this season for both Payne and Ball. They are pretty similar on per 36 numbers, with Payne beating Ball by quite a bit in all of the shooting stats (2P, 3P, FT %'s). Also, Payne can create his own shot much better than Ball. Ball is 3 years younger and has more defensive flexibility. But Payne may well be a better option because he will cost probably less than half of Ball's contract. Payne is a UFA too, so we don't have to deal with the RFA BS.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=payneca01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=balllo01&p2yrfrom=2021

[sco]

Bulls were right to cut ties with Payne at the time - he was a complete disaster then. But he's better now, much better. Does almost everything that Lonzo does, only better, and at probably less than half the cost. So I would be completely fine with signing him this summer.

Nope do not want him back despite his recent play.He should just stay in Phoenix. It’s working out for him there, who knows if he will be the same on another team.

Not following your logic, which would suggest that we would never make a trade for a player on another team. Payne has really blossomed this year, on both sides of the ball. We saw what he did when CP3 was out, which gives comfort to the notion that his efficiency would continue with greater minutes.

Below is a comparison of the stats for this season for both Payne and Ball. They are pretty similar on per 36 numbers, with Payne beating Ball by quite a bit in all of the shooting stats (2P, 3P, FT %'s). Also, Payne can create his own shot much better than Ball. Ball is 3 years younger and has more defensive flexibility. But Payne may well be a better option because he will cost probably less than half of Ball's contract. Payne is a UFA too, so we don't have to deal with the RFA BS.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=payneca01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=balllo01&p2yrfrom=2021

I like Ball, but also recognize that it may be because his name came with hype. Payne is like the anti-Ball in that respect. I wonder if we could nab him on a 1+1 deal for the full MLE and tell him he's the opening day starter.

[bad knees]

Nope do not want him back despite his recent play.He should just stay in Phoenix. It’s working out for him there, who knows if he will be the same on another team.

Not following your logic, which would suggest that we would never make a trade for a player on another team. Payne has really blossomed this year, on both sides of the ball. We saw what he did when CP3 was out, which gives comfort to the notion that his efficiency would continue with greater minutes.

Below is a comparison of the stats for this season for both Payne and Ball. They are pretty similar on per 36 numbers, with Payne beating Ball by quite a bit in all of the shooting stats (2P, 3P, FT %'s). Also, Payne can create his own shot much better than Ball. Ball is 3 years younger and has more defensive flexibility. But Payne may well be a better option because he will cost probably less than half of Ball's contract. Payne is a UFA too, so we don't have to deal with the RFA BS.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=payneca01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=balllo01&p2yrfrom=2021

I like Ball, but also recognize that it may be because his name came with hype. Payne is like the anti-Ball in that respect. I wonder if we could nab him on a 1+1 deal for the full MLE and tell him he's the opening day starter.

I like how you think!

[GetBuLLish]

I'll never get over how much Cam Payne reminds me of John Turturro.

FWIW.

[greenwing]

I don’t understand the love for Cameron Payne. He’s only a minimally better player now than he was when he played with us. He’s shooting at a higher percentage now since he’s playing with a more talented team that moves the ball. When Payne played with the Bulls they played a lot of isolation ball. He’s a capable backup but a below average point guard in this league. He’s the type of guy who will give you an occasional big night but usually isn’t the focal point of the offense nor should he be. For those looking for him to start, Coby White is more talented than him and has a much higher ceiling. If you’re going to upgrade the point guard position on this roster then you find a guy with experience who has put up at the minimum solid numbers and have Coby learn from him. Otherwise, you’re looking at Coby or Sato as your starters next year and let this roster improve from within with a full offseason with Vucevic for the team to learn to play with moving forward.

[2018C3]

Hey, lets give the guy credit. He got bounced out of the league, and came back to become productive.

Good for him, I'm happy for him.

[sco]

I don’t understand the love for Cameron Payne. He’s only a minimally better player now than he was when he played with us. He’s shooting at a higher percentage now since he’s playing with a more talented team that moves the ball. When Payne played with the Bulls they played a lot of isolation ball. He’s a capable backup but a below average point guard in this league. He’s the type of guy who will give you an occasional big night but usually isn’t the focal point of the offense nor should he be. For those looking for him to start, Coby White is more talented than him and has a much higher ceiling. If you’re going to upgrade the point guard position on this roster then you find a guy with experience who has put up at the minimum solid numbers and have Coby learn from him. Otherwise, you’re looking at Coby or Sato as your starters next year and let this roster improve from within with a full offseason with Vucevic for the team to learn to play with moving forward.

His stats from when he was a Bull compared to this season (on similar minutes) are VERY different both in terms of shooting %'s and A/T ratio. Is he our best starting PG option next season? Probably not, BUT he might be the best PG we could nab on a 1+1 deal (if we hand him the starting job to begin the season) to give us 2022 cap flexibility - AND Coby White should not be used as a PG next season! Coby is very unlikely to improve enough to have the vision (not to mention his defense) to become a starting caliber PG during his rookie deal, BUT he might become a passably good SG if we focus him on that. Cam showed both skills during the playoffs (certainly not elite but)to a level the Coby never has.

[greenwing]

I don’t understand the love for Cameron Payne. He’s only a minimally better player now than he was when he played with us. He’s shooting at a higher percentage now since he’s playing with a more talented team that moves the ball. When Payne played with the Bulls they played a lot of isolation ball. He’s a capable backup but a below average point guard in this league. He’s the type of guy who will give you an occasional big night but usually isn’t the focal point of the offense nor should he be. For those looking for him to start, Coby White is more talented than him and has a much higher ceiling. If you’re going to upgrade the point guard position on this roster then you find a guy with experience who has put up at the minimum solid numbers and have Coby learn from him. Otherwise, you’re looking at Coby or Sato as your starters next year and let this roster improve from within with a full offseason with Vucevic for the team to learn to play with moving forward.

His stats from when he was a Bull compared to this season (on similar minutes) are VERY different both in terms of shooting %'s and A/T ratio. Is he our best starting PG option next season? Probably not, BUT he might be the best PG we could nab on a 1+1 deal (if we hand him the starting job to begin the season) to give us 2022 cap flexibility - AND Coby White should not be used as a PG next season! Coby is very unlikely to improve enough to have the vision (not to mention his defense) to become a starting caliber PG during his rookie deal, BUT he might become a passably good SG if we focus him on that. Cam showed both skills during the playoffs (certainly not elite but)to a level the Coby never has.

I can understand the cost savings argument but the assistant to turnover ratio is incorrect. Payne’s second season with the Bulls had a roughly 3.2 to 1 ratio compared to 3.6 to 1 now while playing with a better team. And again, his shooting percentage is up from playing on a better team with better ball movement. I don’t see major improvement at all here. He’s marginally better, sure. Serviceable as a backup? Yes, I’d say so. A full time starter for contending team? Not a chance with his current level of play.

If you got him to come back here on a super cheap deal, I can understand the Bulls giving him some run and letting him, Coby and Sato battling it out for the starting position. I just don’t see him as a regular starter. That’s not a knock on him personally. I would just rather see the Bulls go after someone with starter experience.