Image ImageImage Image

2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

Moderators: HomoSapien, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23

Who do you want?

Ball
27
16%
Wiseman
29
18%
Deni
41
25%
Hayes
31
19%
Obi
4
2%
Vassell
14
9%
Okoro
4
2%
Haliburton
7
4%
Onyeka
3
2%
Other
4
2%
 
Total votes: 164

User avatar
PlayerUp
Analyst
Posts: 3,628
And1: 1,905
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
Contact:

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#121 » by PlayerUp » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:41 pm

gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#122 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:16 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


What upside does he have? He is not a great athlete & his shooting issues are ones that probably never get corrected. He also doesn't play defense. What modern NBA PG has all those limitations but turned into a all-star player? Ben Simmons has shooting issues but he is an elite defender, athlete is 3" taller and 50 heaver.
wonderboy2
Analyst
Posts: 3,151
And1: 1,949
Joined: Jul 05, 2013

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#123 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:35 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


What upside does he have? He is not a great athlete & his shooting issues are ones that probably never get corrected. He also doesn't play defense. What modern NBA PG has all those limitations but turned into a all-star player? Ben Simmons has shooting issues but he is an elite defender, athlete is 3" taller and 50 heaver.

His handle is elite As well as his passing. He gets to where ever he wants to on the court. He’s not an elite athlete but a decent athlete at 6’8. His percentage is mostly due to shot selection. He has a funky form but don’t think it will effect him from becoming a better shooter. He has the tools to be good on defense it’s just a matter of effort. I remember people saying Lonzo defense was bad and that he was lazy. Especially when Lonzo got torched by Fox in that Mach madness game.i think right now Melo is Sato on steroids/PCP right now. But only way more agressive and with a 10 times better handle and playmaker. He is only going to get better.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#124 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:43 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


What upside does he have? He is not a great athlete & his shooting issues are ones that probably never get corrected. He also doesn't play defense. What modern NBA PG has all those limitations but turned into a all-star player? Ben Simmons has shooting issues but he is an elite defender, athlete is 3" taller and 50 heaver.

His handle is elite As well as his passing. He gets to where ever he wants to on the court. He’s not an elite athlete but a decent athlete at 6’8. His percentage is mostly due to shot selection. He has a funky form but don’t think it will effect him from becoming a better shooter. He has the tools to be good on defense it’s just a matter of effort. I remember people saying Lonzo defense was bad and that he was lazy. Especially when Lonzo got torched by Fox in that Mach madness game.i think right now Melo is Sato on steroids/PCP right now. But only way more agressive and with a 10 times better handle and playmaker. He is only going to get better.


I think you might be confusing Anthony Edwards with LaMelo Ball. Who's problems are shot selections and effort. Ball shot is broken. A trend with the Ball's. Also Lonzo was always thought of as a good defender. LeMelo defense like his shot is broken. Its not a mater of effort. He will get torched in the NBA.
gobullschi
Veteran
Posts: 2,905
And1: 899
Joined: May 23, 2006

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#125 » by gobullschi » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:44 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


I think Melo is the least likely to bust. Guys with his size, ball handling, and passing skills always have a place in the NBA.

I don’t care how much cap space the Bulls have. A new GM isn’t going to change anything. Players want to win a championship. If the Bulls aren’t competing in the playoffs they aren’t signing a big free agent. Plain and simple.
User avatar
CjayC
RealGM
Posts: 11,543
And1: 1,169
Joined: Mar 02, 2005
Location: Hoiball
   

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#126 » by CjayC » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:49 pm

If we must take a PG I'd rather stand pat for Hayes over trading up for Ball. The shooting projects to improve/won't have to spend multiple offseasons rebuilding his mechanics, similar defensive upsides(Hayes is already a better team defender), both have elite playmaking potential out of the PnR. Ball's got the edge athletically, and on handles, but not to the degree that I can ignore that shot possibly never panning out or the horrific decision making.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#127 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:50 pm

gobullschi wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


I think Melo is the least likely to bust. Guys with his size, ball handling, and passing skills always have a place in the NBA.

I don’t care how much cap space the Bulls have. A new GM isn’t going to change anything. Players want to win a championship. If the Bulls aren’t competing in the playoffs they aren’t signing a big free agent. Plain and simple.


So to you draft selection doesn't matter. What matters is if you are able to last in the NBA? So Kris Dunn going #5 is still a good pick because he still has a place in the NBA?
gobullschi
Veteran
Posts: 2,905
And1: 899
Joined: May 23, 2006

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#128 » by gobullschi » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


I think Melo is the least likely to bust. Guys with his size, ball handling, and passing skills always have a place in the NBA.

I don’t care how much cap space the Bulls have. A new GM isn’t going to change anything. Players want to win a championship. If the Bulls aren’t competing in the playoffs they aren’t signing a big free agent. Plain and simple.


So to you draft selection doesn't matter. What matters is if you are able to last in the NBA? So Kris Dunn going #5 is still a good pick because he still has a place in the NBA?


Nope. I value elite/unique skills and the positive impact they bring to the team. Dunn’s elite skill is defense which isn’t a unique/valuable enough skill set. Guys like David Nwaba and Shaq Harrison can be picked up for pennies.

Can you name a player with Ball’s size, ball handling, and passing skill set that’s flopped in the NBA?
wonderboy2
Analyst
Posts: 3,151
And1: 1,949
Joined: Jul 05, 2013

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#129 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:07 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
What upside does he have? He is not a great athlete & his shooting issues are ones that probably never get corrected. He also doesn't play defense. What modern NBA PG has all those limitations but turned into a all-star player? Ben Simmons has shooting issues but he is an elite defender, athlete is 3" taller and 50 heaver.

His handle is elite As well as his passing. He gets to where ever he wants to on the court. He’s not an elite athlete but a decent athlete at 6’8. His percentage is mostly due to shot selection. He has a funky form but don’t think it will effect him from becoming a better shooter. He has the tools to be good on defense it’s just a matter of effort. I remember people saying Lonzo defense was bad and that he was lazy. Especially when Lonzo got torched by Fox in that Mach madness game.i think right now Melo is Sato on steroids/PCP right now. But only way more agressive and with a 10 times better handle and playmaker. He is only going to get better.


I think you might be confusing Anthony Edwards with LaMelo Ball. Who's problems are shot selections and effort. Ball shot is broken. A trend with the Ball's. Also Lonzo was always thought of as a good defender. LeMelo defense like his shot is broken. Its not a mater of effort. He will get torched in the NBA.

No ball takes a lot of bad and early shots in the shot clock. Ball has a weird form but I don’t think it’s broken. A lot of players had weird forms but became better shooters over time. Lonzo shot has improved this year I mean it’s not great but it is improving. LaMelo has the length on defense but he just didn’t try in the NDL games. I’m not saying he’s going to be a good defender but think he can be solid with good coaching and better technique. Ball is tough to call he could be a bust but I can see a lot of things he does well and can bring to a team if he pans out. I mean what’s the worst that can happen with Ball? He’s already better than the guy that started 90 percent of the games at pg last season? All the top pgs in this draft have serious question marks. Haliburton handle and creation ability, shot off the dribble and shooting form are red flags. Killian Hayes turnover prone, lack of burst, below average athleticism, defense and poor outside shot are huge red flags.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#130 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:13 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
I think Melo is the least likely to bust. Guys with his size, ball handling, and passing skills always have a place in the NBA.

I don’t care how much cap space the Bulls have. A new GM isn’t going to change anything. Players want to win a championship. If the Bulls aren’t competing in the playoffs they aren’t signing a big free agent. Plain and simple.


So to you draft selection doesn't matter. What matters is if you are able to last in the NBA? So Kris Dunn going #5 is still a good pick because he still has a place in the NBA?


Nope. I value elite/unique skills and the positive impact they bring to the team. Dunn’s elite skill is defense which isn’t a unique/valuable enough skill set. Guys like David Nwaba and Shaq Harrison can be picked up for pennies.

Can you name a player with Ball’s size, ball handling, and passing skill set that’s flopped in the NBA?


His brother? Hasnt exactly lived up to being the #2 pick.
wonderboy2
Analyst
Posts: 3,151
And1: 1,949
Joined: Jul 05, 2013

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#131 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:17 pm

Say what you want about Dunn he’s going to have a solid career. He’s a dog and his defense is absolutely ELITE. He just missed all defensive team by 1 player. He was second in steals and first and steals percentage if I remember correctly. I forgot the stat but I read that when Dunn was on the court the bulls were way better defensively. I also read that Dunn had one of the best defensive season of any bull in franchise history. That’s saying a lot considering all of the good defenders bulls have had (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Deng, Butler). His shot needs improvement but he did good as a secondary playmaker and a guy that can penetrate to the basket. When Dunn got injured his impact and toughness was missed. I heard a lot of teams are interested in him including the heat, Magic, clippers, golden state.
drosestruts
General Manager
Posts: 9,054
And1: 4,194
Joined: Apr 05, 2012
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#132 » by drosestruts » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:19 pm

LaMelo Ball is Rafer Alston. Change my mind meme.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#133 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:29 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
wonderboy2 wrote:His handle is elite As well as his passing. He gets to where ever he wants to on the court. He’s not an elite athlete but a decent athlete at 6’8. His percentage is mostly due to shot selection. He has a funky form but don’t think it will effect him from becoming a better shooter. He has the tools to be good on defense it’s just a matter of effort. I remember people saying Lonzo defense was bad and that he was lazy. Especially when Lonzo got torched by Fox in that Mach madness game.i think right now Melo is Sato on steroids/PCP right now. But only way more agressive and with a 10 times better handle and playmaker. He is only going to get better.


I think you might be confusing Anthony Edwards with LaMelo Ball. Who's problems are shot selections and effort. Ball shot is broken. A trend with the Ball's. Also Lonzo was always thought of as a good defender. LeMelo defense like his shot is broken. Its not a mater of effort. He will get torched in the NBA.

No ball takes a lot of bad and early shots in the shot clock. Ball has a weird form but I don’t think it’s broken. A lot of players had weird forms but became better shooters over time. Lonzo shot has improved this year I mean it’s not great but it is improving. LaMelo has the length on defense but he just didn’t try in the NDL games. I’m not saying he’s going to be a good defender but think he can be solid with good coaching and better technique. Ball is tough to call he could be a bust but I can see a lot of things he does well and can bring to a team if he pans out. I mean what’s the worst that can happen with Ball? He’s already better than the guy that started 90 percent of the games at pg last season? All the top pgs in this draft have serious question marks. Haliburton handle and creation ability, shot off the dribble and shooting form are red flags. Killian Hayes turnover prone, lack of burst, below average athleticism, defense and poor outside shot are huge red flags.


I mean people keep thinking this can all be fixed, Its rarely ever gets fixed and when it is its much later in their career.

"Ball made just 51 percent of his shots around the basket, which was nine percent below the NBL league average, according to Spatial Jam."

"He made just 36 percent of his shots in the midrange, and shot about 10 percent worse than league average from above the break."

"He has really awful mechanics in regard to his defensive stance, often standing straight up and down. He gets blown by at the point of attack with relative ease despite being bigger and longer than most guys because of that. He’s the king of going for the recovery swipe where he tries to poke the ball free after a guy gets past him. His mechanics are also terrible when closing out on shooters. He hasn’t mastered taking shorter steps out while staying in his stance, as he’ll often get hit with the attempted blocked shot-blow-by, or closes out too short and gets hit with a jumper in his face. Just in general, he tries to take the easiest way out possible on defense while also trying to make a play."

https://theathletic.com/1540715/2020/01/22/fifteen-questions-about-lamelo-balls-stock-as-he-enters-the-pre-draft-process/
gobullschi
Veteran
Posts: 2,905
And1: 899
Joined: May 23, 2006

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#134 » by gobullschi » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:41 pm

wonderboy2 wrote:Say what you want about Dunn he’s going to have a solid career. He’s a dog and his defense is absolutely ELITE. He just missed all defensive team by 1 player. He was second in steals and first and steals percentage if I remember correctly. I forgot the stat but I read that when Dunn was on the court the bulls were way better defensively. I also read that Dunn had one of the best defensive season of any bull in franchise history. That’s saying a lot considering all of the good defenders bulls have had (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Deng, Butler). His shot needs improvement but he did good as a secondary playmaker and a guy that can penetrate to the basket. When Dunn got injured his impact and toughness was missed. I heard a lot of teams are interested in him including the heat, Magic, clippers, golden state.


My point was that Dunn’s skill set isn’t as rare to find in a basketball player. I actually like Kris Dunn but I worry he will command too much money.
gobullschi
Veteran
Posts: 2,905
And1: 899
Joined: May 23, 2006

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#135 » by gobullschi » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:46 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
So to you draft selection doesn't matter. What matters is if you are able to last in the NBA? So Kris Dunn going #5 is still a good pick because he still has a place in the NBA?


Nope. I value elite/unique skills and the positive impact they bring to the team. Dunn’s elite skill is defense which isn’t a unique/valuable enough skill set. Guys like David Nwaba and Shaq Harrison can be picked up for pennies.

Can you name a player with Ball’s size, ball handling, and passing skill set that’s flopped in the NBA?


His brother? Hasnt exactly lived up to being the #2 pick.


I’m not sure I would call Lonzo Ball a bust. Averaging 12 PPG, 6RPG, & 7 APG with elite defense at 22 years old, plus he’s dealt with some injuries, was traded to a new team, and had a baby out of wedlock in his short NBA career. I wouldn’t shut the door on him quite yet.
User avatar
TheSuzerain
RealGM
Posts: 17,368
And1: 11,392
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#136 » by TheSuzerain » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:51 pm

I don't think Lamelo's shot isn't as broken as the haters claim. He's not Simmons.

He seems a pretty similar prospect to D-Lo. Lamelo comes with a bit more risk because the shot might never develop. But he arguably has a a bit higher upside due to more height and passing talent.
User avatar
Jcool0
RealGM
Posts: 15,199
And1: 9,243
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
Location: Illinois
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#137 » by Jcool0 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:55 pm

gobullschi wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:
gobullschi wrote:
Nope. I value elite/unique skills and the positive impact they bring to the team. Dunn’s elite skill is defense which isn’t a unique/valuable enough skill set. Guys like David Nwaba and Shaq Harrison can be picked up for pennies.

Can you name a player with Ball’s size, ball handling, and passing skill set that’s flopped in the NBA?


His brother? Hasnt exactly lived up to being the #2 pick.


I’m not sure I would call Lonzo Ball a bust. Averaging 12 PPG, 6RPG, & 7 APG with elite defense at 22 years old, plus he’s dealt with some injuries, was traded to a new team, and had a baby out of wedlock in his short NBA career. I wouldn’t shut the door on him quite yet.


You can't win in the NBA with your point guard averaging 10-12 PPG & 6-7 APG. Now that doesn't mean he will be out of the NBA. But for the #2 pick that is not good value.
Dieselbound&Down
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,841
And1: 420
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#138 » by Dieselbound&Down » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:59 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
gobullschi wrote:OPJ & #4 for Wiggins and #2


LaMelo is #2 on my draft board purely due to upside unless things change post predraft workouts. He may end up being a bust but I am always for drafting high upside prospects.

Normally I would be okay with this trade above under Gar/Pax because those clowns wasted all our cap space year after year. However under AK cap space maybe a valuable asset. We could turnaround and absorb deals for picks and adding Wiggins who failed to co-exist with Lavine in Minnesota may set us back. That's why I am hesitant to do a Wiggins trade as of now.


Ball is a modern Shaun Livingston. He'll have a long career in the league and, hopefully for him, he finds a really good team he can catch on with to play a solid role and win a ring like Livingston did with Golden State.

Not worth the #2 pick.
Dieselbound&Down
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,841
And1: 420
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#139 » by Dieselbound&Down » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pm

drosestruts wrote:LaMelo Ball is Rafer Alston. Change my mind meme.


I can see that. My comp is Shaun Livingston.
wonderboy2
Analyst
Posts: 3,151
And1: 1,949
Joined: Jul 05, 2013

Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2 

Post#140 » by wonderboy2 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:12 pm

Dieselbound&Down wrote:
drosestruts wrote:LaMelo Ball is Rafer Alston. Change my mind meme.


I can see that. My comp is Shaun Livingston.

Good Call! Shaun Livingston is a good comparison. To bad Livingston suffered that injury because he had a lot of potential. But Livingston ended up having a very good career. Takes a lot of dedication to come back from an injury like that.

Return to Chicago Bulls