What exactly is the plan?

[WindyCityBorn]

Now name all the teams that tanked forever and still suck. Get ready to be miserable for a long time because AK doesn’t want high lottery picks.

Who said anything about tanking forever? Nobody tanks "forever."

Why is it always a be the Hinkie Sixers, or nothing else? And why are people now so gung-ho on trying to basically become the exact late playoff seed with no notable future assets that led to so many of them wanting Jimmy Butler out?

You could just dump Thad and Sato, who have no long term future here anyways, and immediately become one of the worst teams in the league. You'd still have LaVine, you'd still have Pat, and you'd still have all your future draft picks to work with.

Instead now they've gone all-in on basically the equivalent of old ass Pau Gasol.

Pau was not putting 24/12 when the Bulls acquired him and he wasn’t a current all-star. He was also 34 years old not 30. You know your argument is a weak one and that why you have to exaggerate the negative to try to make point. His contract will be up before he even hits 34.

Sucking this year still sucks. I’m not interested in wasting LaVine’s prime waiting for Patrick Williams and whoever we ended up with in this years draft to possibly become good. And what if we didn’t even get top pick after tanking? Then what? I’m glad our management is making building the team they choose, doing things they can control and not depending on luck. AK literally said he did not want to pick as high as #4 again. I guess you didn’t believe him.

[aramada]

As imperfect as the current plan is so far, it’s certainly going in a better direction than hoping for more Pat Williams ping pong balls or to stumble upon the next Giannis or Jokic (Marko Simonovic?)

[The Explorer]

I think people have vastly overrated Vucevic here. He's a good player, but he is a fringe all-star player. He's only moderately efficient and he's very poor defensively. He's also 30, and those statements I just made describe him in his all-time best season ever. Expecting improvement at his age and total minutes, especially at the center position, just strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely.

I don't blame people who are excited. It's an effort to improve! It's a new shiny thing! After years of terribadness, I get it.

But yes, this is essentially giving up two first rounders for 2015 Pau Gasol.

As opposed to?
- Finding a way to draft an all time great player, developing him, building around him, retaining him and winning?
- Convincing an all time great player to join a 30 win team in Chicago because of all of the Balls you drafted?

Like I said, this current route is very unlikely to work but the alternative is even less likely to work.

1. How many of the ATGs here are someone you even want, or would have an even remote shot at as an FA?
2. How are you gonna trade for one, when you've basically depleted your warchest to something that a couple dozen other teams could pretty much match or surpass now?

And, again, you ignore something that's always brought up: high draft picks/young prospects are always the most valuable assets when it comes to trading for a superstar. Always.

You do not need to draft Anthony Davis or Kevin Garnett. You can, however, draft Brandon Ingram and Lonzo Ball and get Anthony Davis. You can draft Jeff Green and Al Jefferson and get Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett.

You can even draft a Zach LaVine and Kris Dunn and get Jimmy Butler!

Jimmy Butler didn't win a championship for Minnesota, so what did trading their #7 pick and young players really do for them?
Lakers already had Lebron and when he signed with the lakers, everyone knew he would play LeGm. That situation is not comparable
Boston trades in 2007 is somewhat comparable but you had to go back 14 years to a much different era. And they traded for 2 stars to complement their star in Pierce. Which 2 stars have been simultaneously available via trade recently? What trades should they have made instead?

And 2015 Pau Gasol was 34 years old at the time of the signing, not 30 like Vucevic. Another example that's not comparable. Your examples ignore a lot of context

[Leslie Forman]

Pau was not putting 24/12 when the Bulls acquired him and he wasn’t a current all-star. He was also 34 years old not 30. You know your argument is a weak one and that why you have to exaggerate the negative to try to make point. His contract will be up before he even hits 34.

Vucevic really isn't any better than old Pau Gasol. He has the same flaws defensively while also being less of a shotblocking presence, he isn't any more efficient a scorer, and he isn't even any better a ballhandler or passer than Pau. I mean if he's so damn good…why are the Magic so damn bad? Why have they been so damn bad forever with him putting up huge numbers for so long?

doing things they can control and not depending on luck

Of course this is depending on "luck." Literally everything you do in this league is incredibly dependent on "luck." This is basically a "pray a superstar wants to come here, or Pat becomes one" plan. That is as high risk as any a "plan."

This was the entire point of why Hinkie, and now Presti, did what they did. You are going to get things wrong so give yourself as many bullets to shoot with. This is essentially what every baseball franchise does now, relying on building up their farm systems to give themselves not just future MLB players but trade chips for other ones.

We've basically just said "F the farm, let's try to win 85 games and hope a Trout or Betts signs or forces his way here."

If you don't really give a crap about titles and just want to see a more competitive team…well that, I understand.

And 2015 Pau Gasol was 34 years old at the time of the signing, not 30 like Vucevic. Another example that's not comparable. Your examples ignore a lot of context

And 30-year-old Pau Gasol was a waaaaay better player than Vucevic is now. You're talking about a goddamn literal title winning #2. A legit HOF level big man.

34-year-old Pau is basically the level Vucevic is at now.

This may be a new front office, but we've basically ended up with a 34-year-old Pau Gasol again, instead of a 21 or 27-year-old Pau Gasol.

[aramada]

Comparing 30 year old Vucevic to 34 year old Gasol (who still gave the Bulls 2 very good years despite being paired up with Joakim and Mirotić - 30 year old Gasol won his 2nd ship) over and over is just laughable. Tells you how much bad faith there is to the argument

Pat Williams on a team competing in the playoffs has a better chance of panning out. Perennial Lottery bound Pat ends up like Carter or Lauri or Coby.
Let’s stop sleeping on White, too. He was over his head at starting PG, but once he gets back to his destined role, he’ll be the 20ppg player off the bench contenders usually have. As a result, I don’t see why Coby and Pat can’t end up packaged in a KG-like deal to add a third alpha to the mix. And Let’s not forget Lauri who may end up signing a value deal as this season has been another missed opportunity

[Cabbage bulls]

Pau was not putting 24/12 when the Bulls acquired him and he wasn’t a current all-star. He was also 34 years old not 30. You know your argument is a weak one and that why you have to exaggerate the negative to try to make point. His contract will be up before he even hits 34.

Vucevic really isn't any better than old Pau Gasol. He has the same flaws defensively while also being less of a shotblocking presence, he isn't any more efficient a scorer, and he isn't even any better a ballhandler or passer than Pau. I mean if he's so damn good…why are the Magic so damn bad? Why have they been so damn bad forever with him putting up huge numbers for so long?

doing things they can control and not depending on luck

Of course this is depending on "luck." Literally everything you do in this league is incredibly dependent on "luck." This is basically a "pray a superstar wants to come here, or Pat becomes one" plan. That is as high risk as any a "plan."

This was the entire point of why Hinkie, and now Presti, did what they did. You are going to get things wrong so give yourself as many bullets to shoot with. This is essentially what every baseball franchise does now, relying on building up their farm systems to give themselves not just future MLB players but trade chips for other ones.

We've basically just said "F the farm, let's try to win 85 games and hope a Trout or Betts signs or forces his way here."

If you don't really give a crap about titles and just want to see a more competitive team…well that, I understand.

And 2015 Pau Gasol was 34 years old at the time of the signing, not 30 like Vucevic. Another example that's not comparable. Your examples ignore a lot of context

And 30-year-old Pau Gasol was a waaaaay better player than Vucevic is now. You're talking about a goddamn literal title winning #2. A legit HOF level big man.

34-year-old Pau is basically the level Vucevic is at now.

This may be a new front office, but we've basically ended up with a 34-year-old Pau Gasol again, instead of a 21 or 27-year-old Pau Gasol.

This is just completely false. It shows you have made no effort to even compare their stats. Do some research before spouting BS.

[WindyCityBorn]

Pau was not putting 24/12 when the Bulls acquired him and he wasn’t a current all-star. He was also 34 years old not 30. You know your argument is a weak one and that why you have to exaggerate the negative to try to make point. His contract will be up before he even hits 34.

Vucevic really isn't any better than old Pau Gasol. He has the same flaws defensively while also being less of a shotblocking presence, he isn't any more efficient a scorer, and he isn't even any better a ballhandler or passer than Pau. I mean if he's so damn good…why are the Magic so damn bad? Why have they been so damn bad forever with him putting up huge numbers for so long?

doing things they can control and not depending on luck

Of course this is depending on "luck." Literally everything you do in this league is incredibly dependent on "luck." This is basically a "pray a superstar wants to come here, or Pat becomes one" plan. That is as high risk as any a "plan."

This was the entire point of why Hinkie, and now Presti, did what they did. You are going to get things wrong so give yourself as many bullets to shoot with. This is essentially what every baseball franchise does now, relying on building up their farm systems to give themselves not just future MLB players but trade chips for other ones.

We've basically just said "F the farm, let's try to win 85 games and hope a Trout or Betts signs or forces his way here."

If you don't really give a crap about titles and just want to see a more competitive team…well that, I understand.

And 2015 Pau Gasol was 34 years old at the time of the signing, not 30 like Vucevic. Another example that's not comparable. Your examples ignore a lot of context

And 30-year-old Pau Gasol was a waaaaay better player than Vucevic is now. You're talking about a goddamn literal title winning #2. A legit HOF level big man.

34-year-old Pau is basically the level Vucevic is at now.

This may be a new front office, but we've basically ended up with a 34-year-old Pau Gasol again, instead of a 21 or 27-year-old Pau Gasol.

This is a load of crap, but you are free to believe it. I’m done.

[WindyCityBorn]

Pau was not putting 24/12 when the Bulls acquired him and he wasn’t a current all-star. He was also 34 years old not 30. You know your argument is a weak one and that why you have to exaggerate the negative to try to make point. His contract will be up before he even hits 34.

Vucevic really isn't any better than old Pau Gasol. He has the same flaws defensively while also being less of a shotblocking presence, he isn't any more efficient a scorer, and he isn't even any better a ballhandler or passer than Pau. I mean if he's so damn good…why are the Magic so damn bad? Why have they been so damn bad forever with him putting up huge numbers for so long?

doing things they can control and not depending on luck

Of course this is depending on "luck." Literally everything you do in this league is incredibly dependent on "luck." This is basically a "pray a superstar wants to come here, or Pat becomes one" plan. That is as high risk as any a "plan."

This was the entire point of why Hinkie, and now Presti, did what they did. You are going to get things wrong so give yourself as many bullets to shoot with. This is essentially what every baseball franchise does now, relying on building up their farm systems to give themselves not just future MLB players but trade chips for other ones.

We've basically just said "F the farm, let's try to win 85 games and hope a Trout or Betts signs or forces his way here."

If you don't really give a crap about titles and just want to see a more competitive team…well that, I understand.

And 2015 Pau Gasol was 34 years old at the time of the signing, not 30 like Vucevic. Another example that's not comparable. Your examples ignore a lot of context

And 30-year-old Pau Gasol was a waaaaay better player than Vucevic is now. You're talking about a goddamn literal title winning #2. A legit HOF level big man.

34-year-old Pau is basically the level Vucevic is at now.

This may be a new front office, but we've basically ended up with a 34-year-old Pau Gasol again, instead of a 21 or 27-year-old Pau Gasol.

This is just completely false. It shows you have made no effort to even compare their stats. Do some research before spouting BS.

My ignore list is getting fed.

[Cabbage bulls]

Vucevic this season - 56.5 TS%, 20.6 FGA, 30 USG%, 1.9 TOV
34 year old Pau - 55.0 TS%, 15 FGA, 24.7 USG%, 2 TOV

Vucevic is more efficient on a higher volume with the same amount of turnovers.

[The Box Office]

DougThonus and Leslie Forman said it better than I can.

Most of the Bulls fanbase is overrating Vooch talking him up as if he's a savior having him and LaVine catapult us to the 4th- 6th seed magically. I'll emphasize these aspects regarding Vooch again: he doesn't play defense and he's 30 years old.

It's true: Vooch came from the Orlando Magic, who has been a bad team, ever since the start of Vooch's tenure there since 2012. They went to the playoffs twice with him. And gave up on him now. Vooch will not get any better. He is who he is. Vooch is teaming up with Lauri, a big softee who doesn't play defense or box out.

Some of you did watch Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman play, correct? If you did, did you know what you were looking at? It all starts on defense. You were here for the Rose and Thibs era, right? How did that go? Yeah, defense.

The plan, for now, is to do their best to make the 8th seed. It can happen. I just do not see it. We'll see. This is going to be interesting.

[PrimzyBulls81]

I like this team going forward . now my goals in off season would be, find third star in free agency if possible,
pick up veteran PG, re-sign Theis, Temple, trade Sato

vet PG, Lavine, Williams, Lauri/UFA, Vucevic
White, Temple, T.Brown, Young, Theis

[BullChit]

The Ball breaking that will go down off the back of this thread if we win a championship or fail horribly will be epic hahahaha

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

[Hugi Mancura]

This current team is first round exit, adding free agent from year 2021 free agent list makes this team second round exit and I think that is the roof.

If Bulls want to content with Vucevic it must happen soon. Vucevic is not a young player, so I would say Bulls now have 2-3 year window to achieve something with him. So if they want to content with Vucevic Bulls probably need to trade for third star and only one who have value in a star trade is PWill (first pick Bulls can trade is in 2025). Also Vucevic's window is not same as PWill's. When PWill might be good enough it will probably take 2-3 years and at that time Vucevic is a almost useless in defense. Other option for Bulls is to wait until PWill is something, if he will ever be, you never know, but if Bulls do that then they will not find success with Vucevic and they need again to find third star from somewhere. But now Bulls have more time, they can check 2021, 2022 and 2023 free agent options and it gives more options. This is riskier option, because then you putting faith on PWill's development and most of the time players who are not superstar's when they arrive to NBA (Zion, Lebron, Luka) it is crapshoot where you lose more often than win.

[dukeespn]

We have 2 all stars.

That's crazy to say that.

What's hilarious is the T-Wolves also have two all stars. I know Towns played only few games with Dlo due to their endless injuries but they were awful even when those two all stars played with each other.

I'm not saying the combination of Vuc and LaVine will be as bad as them. I actually think they'll be fantastic on offense.

But I want to point out that having two all stars itself means nothing.  Especially when those players are not top 15 players AND they are all bad defenders.

[JohnnyTapwater]

We have 2 all stars.

That's crazy to say that.

What's hilarious is the T-Wolves also have two all stars. I know Towns played only few games with Dlo due to their endless injuries but they were awful even when those two all stars played with each other.

I'm not saying the combination of Vuc and LaVine will be as bad as them. I actually think they'll be fantastic on offense.

But I want to point out that having two all stars itself means nothing.  Especially when those players are not top 15 players AND they are all bad defenders.

We have 2 current all stars. We had 0 for a while. That is freaking awesome to think about.

And you already explained away why I'm not as pessimistic as you are. When you compare yourself to others, you get yourself in a loop of negativity.

[Wingy]

The "most successful" tank in the last 10 years would be the Sixers. In 2013-15, they won 19, 18 and 10 games. They managed to get 2 All-NBA players out of their tank, and where has it taken them?

They haven't made it out of the 2nd round. And they're completely capped out for the next 2 off-seasons.

We are now supposedly "capped out" with "no way to improve", and a "2nd round team at best"... LMAO, except we're currently "a 2nd round team at best" that can keep our core together AND have max cap space the next 2 summers.

I'll wait for one of them to name the team that bottomed out, tanked for 2 or more seasons, and then used those tank draft picks to win a title. But I won't hold my breath.

Yeah, leading the conference with a team built around a 24 and 26 year old? Pfffffttttt. What garbage.

Nikola Vucevic, now that's how you get titles.

Leslie, I often see us align (as a general rule) with a healthy dose of what some may see as pessimism, but what I see as being realistic. I have to disagree with you on this one since I think a huge determining factor in all strategies (tank, what we appear to be doing now, FA market driven, whatever) is having a great FO, and org. AK is off to a good start, and obviously did strong work in Denver. We likely have that important piece.

We gave up picks, but that doesn’t mean we can’t get more if our generally great drafting FO sees a Gobert, Butler type late.

We can use those same talent evaluation skills to obtain buy low prospects such as TBJ, and develop them. There’s nothing guaranteed about TBJ mind you. He might just be the start of targeting these types of “lottery picks” at low cost for this FO. You rehab that stock, and keep it for yourself, or maybe you can trade it for draft capital.

I’ve long been “pro tank” (which just means getting the best pick possible to me...not nec top 3 or bust), but I’ve come around to the fact that there are many different ways if you don’t have GarPax Stockholm syndrome.

How are the teams with lottery drafted “superstars” doing? Pels are just as bad, or worse. Mavs look marginally better than us, and that’s with a top, title-winning coach, and celebrity owner. Of course, they both have more time, so we’ll see.

The Sixers mentioned above, with lottery odds that no longer exist, and despite leading the conference regular season... they’ll probably land in the same general bucket as us given their complete lack of an elite wing, or backcourt scoring option: team that did not win a title.

In terms of teams flocking to young prospects in a vacuum. That premise is honestly very similar to players only prioritizing winning situations. You used AD as an example...and how guys like Ball, and Ingram got it done. Well just like it wasn’t just winning that got it done for Brooklyn...it was LA that got it done more than those prospects by themselves. AD wanted the Lakers. They, and Miami have, and will always have an advantage other teams don’t.

Then you used Butler. How many times do top 10-15 2-way players still in their 20s become available, AND their FO thinks it’s a good idea to dump them? Gotta luck into right player, right team situation (losing on their side), with the right incompetent FO installed...and then have to beat out everyone else’s offer for said player. WE were that perfect storm of incompetence. That’s not often available.

I don’t think your point lacks validity, and I see the concern. I just think it has been discussed ad nauseam that there’s no single way to skin the cat that is winning a title. Plus it always includes a ton of either luck, or being a glitzy warm weather LA/Miami. In all the scenarios, I do think strong ownership, and FOs are a tremendous factor. I’m overly skeptical in the former (but encouraged by recent moves), but I’m buying on the latter. So with that, the 2 All Stars combined with incremental improvements, and hopefully being opportunistic works for me.

[CaPiTanAK]

I just looked up FAs. Joel Embidd and Jokic are both free agents in 2023, same as Vooch. One of the two will be traded a year prior or walk for nothing via FA. You need to be good or have matching salary if you want to make that happening.

We basically have one legitimate 25 year star with possibly 7-9 years of prime left. If PWill develops into a legitimate star in 2-3 years, it’s even better. But the point is to win and compete and cont to make moves that drop deadbeats off this year while add value to the roster. It’s a continuous process and I would rather for us to be on this path rather than drafting bust after bust, see WCJ and soon to be Coby White.

Vooch still has all star C for another 2-3 years. By then, there is a good chance for us to replenish our C position either another all star C who’s younger. Just chill kids.

[DJhitek]

We can have around $30 million in cap space this summer and sign Ball outright. We don’t need luck.

To get there we would have to renounce Sato, Young and Markennen. And Ball can’t be signed outright, NO still owns his rights for first refusal.

Not sure if you have been watching, but Young has been our second best player this season. All this just to try to sign Lonzo. Who can’t create in the half court. Yeah, we need luck.

[Wingy]

DougThonus and Leslie Forman said it better than I can.

Most of the Bulls fanbase is overrating Vooch talking him up as if he's a savior having him and LaVine catapult us to the 4th- 6th seed magically. I'll emphasize these aspects regarding Vooch again: he doesn't play defense and he's 30 years old.

It's true: Vooch came from the Orlando Magic, who has been a bad team, ever since the start of Vooch's tenure there since 2012. They went to the playoffs twice with him. And gave up on him now. Vooch will not get any better. He is who he is. Vooch is teaming up with Lauri, a big softee who doesn't play defense or box out.

Some of you did watch Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman play, correct? If you did, did you know what you were looking at? It all starts on defense. You were here for the Rose and Thibs era, right? How did that go? Yeah, defense.

The plan, for now, is to do their best to make the 8th seed. It can happen. I just do not see it. We'll see. This is going to be interesting.

You have to be strong to great on both sides of the ball. Yes, we're imperfect, and have a long way to go. You have to start somewhere. You can't go from putrid to perfect...which is apparently what some people expect.

And yes, I was old enough to watch during that era. You can't use a team that had the GOAT as any kind of blueprint for teams to follow.

Edit: I'll also add for those concerned about a short 2-3 year window with Vuc. We only gave up or most immediate term picks. That means we have all of our picks available right when said window of concern begins. Perfect for tanking, and tearing down if it doesn't work out.

[Red Larrivee]

What was Utah's plan entering the season?

The previous 4 years, they've been the 5th seed three times, the 6th seed once, and alternated first and second round exits. Today, they have the best record in the league and a chance to win a title that isn't 0.

Utah's built their team around small wins in each market: Clarkson (trade), Ingles (waivers), Bogdanovic (FA), O'Neale (draft). Their most significant move was trading their previous three first round picks for a 32-year-old Mike Conley. Their cornerstones? They traded into the lottery using Lyles and their 24th pick to pick Mitchell, and a 2nd round pick and cash to get Gobert.

It's clear that Karnisovas is cut from a similar cloth based on his tenure in Denver and what he just did at the trade deadline.

There's nothing wrong with being a treadmill team unless you're unwilling to exhaust each market to improve your team (Paxson) or a significant amount of your cap is tied up with ineffective players.

The plan is clear: improve your team, win games, and improve your team. The Bulls have weakened their short-term odds of trading for a superstar, but there's always going to be downside to any route you choose. Karnisovas could make up for that by trading into future drafts.

Let's pretend the Bulls didn't trade for Vucevic. What's the outcome and plan?

- Likely a 7-10 draft pick that will go through growing pains for years
- Continuing to waste Zach LaVine's elite production heading into a contract year in 2021-22.
- Bulls appeal to future stud players continues to be dry.
- More cap space to use in a free agency class without top-end players

Again, there's downside to any path you take, but there's certainly more unknown if the Bulls didn't acquire Vucevic.