Coby White discussion thread

[dabig3]

As someone who was completely fine with casting Coby out as the summer trades were still happening, I still think we need what he can bring off the bench - dynamic scoring and threat. I said before that trading/keeping Coby would depend on how good Ayo looks - and so far he looks great and NBA ready, BUT he's not a scorer or will make defenses respect him. Nowhere close to it yet.

Coby can make teams respect him if he recovers back fully and shakes off any rust. That's something the Bulls 2nd unit doesn't really have, not even with Caruso. It would take a lot of DeMar's back having an actual scorer to run with off that 2nd unit.

And I'm not too worried about defense. That's mostly effort and hustle. And just like we're seeing some decent D play from DeMar so far after all the fearmongering, I think Coby can make similar improvements. Or at least he better, not like he could do much offense these last several months. And he's a decade younger.

All that said he's still a nice tradeable asset, but really only after he comes back and starts cooking. Hopefully Ayo can figure out his shooting as the season goes along (maybe some G-League stints?) and really help make me more comfortable about trading Coby midseason, which I kinda still want to do after all that talk about needing bench scoring lol.

[aramada]

The guy I would point to here would be Matt Thomas. Thomas is a significantly better catch and shoot 3p guy than Coby. Despite that, he doesn't play at all. Why? Defense and lack of ball handling.

In order to get minutes, Coby is going to have to really improve his defense and on ball decision making. People always say "well, he did bad as PG. He'll be fine off ball!" Well, there is no PG in this offense. The PG is the guy with the ball and if Coby does dumb things with it, he is a liability.

Coby was getting entitlement minutes last year. I very much doubt he gets them this year. As was discussed before, he now has 3 people ahead of him in the rotation (Lavine, Ball, Caruso) and one guy competing with him who brings it on defense (Ayo).

Coby's glimmer of hope is that TBJ has played poorly and the team may play more 3 guard lineups.

I think this post reflects how hard we can be on Coby. If making dumb mistakes with the ball makes you a liability, then Caruso should play less (obviously, his elite defense makes him essential). Also, Thomas is not a fair comparison. The is a 27 years old and has played 20% of the minutes Coby has played. He hasn't flashed any sort of shot creation the way Coby has and plays even smaller than White

Expectations are low on Coby, and understandably so since his offseason was pretty much ruined by his shoulder injury. But I'm hoping he has a more defined role this year, with less shot creation responsibilities and more support and guidance from vet bench members, which will help him on defense. He has the motor and coachability to contribute on a winning team. He has new competition in Ayo, but ultimately he has the tools that we need right now and that can make him stand out

[DxC17]

I think we're overthinking Coby's role & fit a little bit. IMO, there is one component here that will guarantee Coby's spot in the rotation & that is the ability to allow Zach & Demar to be on the bench together for stretches of a game.

Demar is 32 & currently playing 35 minutes a game. It's around his career average, however the Bulls would be wise to get his playing time down closer to 30 mpg to reduce wear & tear and stretch his productivity over the course of his 3 year contract. I'm less concerned about Zach, but the recent thumb injury is a good example of why you need to preserve players' health - especially if we are going to throw the bag at Zach in the offseason.

Coby is going to face demonstrably worse defensive talent on average when he comes back & runs with the second unit. He didn't do too hot with a green light against starting defenses of the NBA (.540% TS isn't putrid either), but this is a much different dynamic this time around. The offensive flow with the second unit led by Caruso has been bad, there's no sugarcoating it.

If Coby can give us a dozen points off the bench on league average or better efficiency, and most importantly let Billy keep the second unit on the floor longer (ideally w/o Demar) I will consider his role as a success. Just keep bench defenses honest & on their toes. If you look at microwave 6MOY over the past decade - Clarkson, Lou Will, JR, Gordon, Crawford - none of them have been particularly efficient. But that's not their MO. They need to hoist shots up decently at a high enough volume to get their starters rest. That's really all Coby needs to do.

[Repeat 3-peat]

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[Michael Jackson]

I think we're overthinking Coby's role & fit a little bit. IMO, there is one component here that will guarantee Coby's spot in the rotation & that is the ability to allow Zach & Demar to be on the bench together for stretches of a game.

Demar is 32 & currently playing 35 minutes a game. It's around his career average, however the Bulls would be wise to get his playing time down closer to 30 mpg to reduce wear & tear and stretch his productivity over the course of his 3 year contract. I'm less concerned about Zach, but the recent thumb injury is a good example of why you need to preserve players' health - especially if we are going to throw the bag at Zach in the offseason.

Coby is going to face demonstrably worse defensive talent on average when he comes back & runs with the second unit. He didn't do too hot with a green light against starting defenses of the NBA (.540% TS isn't putrid either), but this is a much different dynamic this time around. The offensive flow with the second unit led by Caruso has been bad, there's no sugarcoating it.

If Coby can give us a dozen points off the bench on league average or better efficiency, and most importantly let Billy keep the second unit on the floor longer (ideally w/o Demar) I will consider his role as a success. Just keep bench defenses honest & on their toes. If you look at microwave 6MOY over the past decade - Clarkson, Lou Will, JR, Gordon, Crawford - none of them have been particularly efficient. But that's not their MO. They need to hoist shots up decently at a high enough volume to get their starters rest. That's really all Coby needs to do.

White on this rookie contract is a good sixth man for sure. If he lives up to potential, we have 2 seasons where he would be a good value contract and really shore up the bench scoring. Whats also important with a guy like him, or the Reggie Jackson's of the world, when a team has your stars keyed up (see NYK vs Chicago) Coby will be able to help punish that defense. Night in and night out he isn't going to be your savior, but Lou Williams won games for LAC on occasions. This is an important role on any team, and unless there is a great return for Coby I would prefer to keep him here at this point. DDR's defense looks better with this talent base and team philosophy, the same may very well happen for Coby. His man defense was never terrible, his help d was awful, but this new system might help him with that. Yet to be seen but well worth seeing what the young man has with this squad in a different role.

[Jello Biafra]

Ayo!

[TheJordanRule]

Sorry guys, I was a big Coby fan but a strong defense and smart choices on offense are a big part of our success. Caruso deserves way more minutes than Coby. Coby can scrap for minutes with Ayo as a 7th/8th man, but we might be better off just trading him as part of a package for an impactful starter at PF. I still think that Coby has the potential to become what Zach is right now, but he’s not going to reach it on our win-now roster, which has heaps of players better than him and Ayo, who arguably may be better than him right out of the gate.

[Michael Jackson]

I’m a wait and see with Coby. Clearly if you get the right package you trade him, but I want to see what he looks like in his new role, because this is a whole brand new team. He might look closer to the good version of himself. As long as he is on his rookie deal we can afford to try him out imho.

[Just_Bullz]

Exactly, DDR is no spring chicken and he still needs to anchor the second unit which I don't see why Coby can 't help out with.

Just like how DDR is the relieve valve for Zach, the same could be said for Coby to DDR. Having excess options from the bench is definitely a premium at the moment for the team.

The trade suggestions are overblown. Coby hasn't even played a single second this season.

I think we're overthinking Coby's role & fit a little bit. IMO, there is one component here that will guarantee Coby's spot in the rotation & that is the ability to allow Zach & Demar to be on the bench together for stretches of a game.

Demar is 32 & currently playing 35 minutes a game. It's around his career average, however the Bulls would be wise to get his playing time down closer to 30 mpg to reduce wear & tear and stretch his productivity over the course of his 3 year contract. I'm less concerned about Zach, but the recent thumb injury is a good example of why you need to preserve players' health - especially if we are going to throw the bag at Zach in the offseason.

Coby is going to face demonstrably worse defensive talent on average when he comes back & runs with the second unit. He didn't do too hot with a green light against starting defenses of the NBA (.540% TS isn't putrid either), but this is a much different dynamic this time around. The offensive flow with the second unit led by Caruso has been bad, there's no sugarcoating it.

If Coby can give us a dozen points off the bench on league average or better efficiency, and most importantly let Billy keep the second unit on the floor longer (ideally w/o Demar) I will consider his role as a success. Just keep bench defenses honest & on their toes. If you look at microwave 6MOY over the past decade - Clarkson, Lou Will, JR, Gordon, Crawford - none of them have been particularly efficient. But that's not their MO. They need to hoist shots up decently at a high enough volume to get their starters rest. That's really all Coby needs to do.

[nekorajo]

I don't get the narrative that you guys are putting out there that he has shown anything close to starting NBA talent during his stint. He flat out sucked at playmaking until he went into "hand-off to Vuc" assist mode last season. He has no ability to see guys other than straight ahead and no ability to set them up (we know what that looks like now and nobody was making the goggles handsigns to him). His defensive effort has always been there, but his ability to get over screens was also terrible. He was also terrible at scoring in any other way that catch-and-shoot 3's, where he was average. He's 21, but IMO, most guys who have "starting potential" have flashed a lot more in their first couple years.

That said, I'm not big on a sell-low trade move for him as there is NFW we get either a middle-first round pick or a player with starting talent back for him this season.

It seems like you still want Coby to prove that he's a starting PG. That was a concern for me last year. This season I've adjusted my expectations of him. He's fearless enough and works hard enough to eventually become more than a role player, but role player is the only opportunity for Coby on this roster.

What's his role going forward? I hope its spark plug off the bench. We don't need him making critical decisions on offense. Zo, Demar, Caruso and Ayo are all better at that. I agree that he hustles on defense which is the least I expect from a role player. Hopefully the kid is watching and learning what the other guards are doing on that end.

Coby has to prove is that he can score without throwing off the rhythm of the team which means he has to take shots within the flow of the offense and protect the ball. I don't see his role being much more than that at the point. Now imagine how good this team will look if he if he excels at it.

[coldfish]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

[Chi town]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

Or… do those guys even have any trade value due to their injuries.

I think it’s far more likely we trade that POR first for a solid vet similar to Nance.

[sco]

I don't get the narrative that you guys are putting out there that he has shown anything close to starting NBA talent during his stint. He flat out sucked at playmaking until he went into "hand-off to Vuc" assist mode last season. He has no ability to see guys other than straight ahead and no ability to set them up (we know what that looks like now and nobody was making the goggles handsigns to him). His defensive effort has always been there, but his ability to get over screens was also terrible. He was also terrible at scoring in any other way that catch-and-shoot 3's, where he was average. He's 21, but IMO, most guys who have "starting potential" have flashed a lot more in their first couple years.

That said, I'm not big on a sell-low trade move for him as there is NFW we get either a middle-first round pick or a player with starting talent back for him this season.

It seems like you still want Coby to prove that he's a starting PG. That was a concern for me last year. This season I've adjusted my expectations of him. He's fearless enough and works hard enough to eventually become more than a role player, but role player is the only opportunity for Coby on this roster.

What's his role going forward? I hope its spark plug off the bench. We don't need him making critical decisions on offense. Zo, Demar, Caruso and Ayo are all better at that. I agree that he hustles on defense which is the least I expect from a role player. Hopefully the kid is watching and learning what the other guards are doing on that end.

Coby has to prove is that he can score without throwing off the rhythm of the team which means he has to take shots within the flow of the offense and protect the ball. I don't see his role being much more than that at the point. Now imagine how good this team will look if he if he excels at it.

For sure I don't want to ever see Coby at PG again, although I thought it was the right thing to do to give him a shot.

I was just saying that anyone who under the illusion that he has starting NBA talent, I don't get that. And I don't believe he will return much by way of trade value this season. I think he could, given a role of backup SG, succeed. But I think he'll come in and struggle for a couple months until he finds his rhythm.

[nekorajo]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

So Daniel Theis type of player? I don't see Arturas trading Pat and Coby for that, but your point on the tax is taken. Maybe we can get Thad back next year. It seems like his wife misses Chicago.

[dougthonus]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

Who would even be that kind of player?

IMO, you need someone with legitimate offensive skills, because if you're just going with a defender, we have enough options already. If you could find someone that had legitimate offensive skills then I think he'll probably cost more than 15m, and I'd also wonder if we're just hurting enough on offense for that to be an upgrade anyway or whether we're better off running out wave after wave of athletic, lengthy perimeter defenders.

The one guy I think fits here potentially is Christian Wood, but I don't think that an offer of Coby + Pat is the best Houston could get if they decide to move him (which they probably should).

[Ctownbulls]

Biggest key for Coby will be keeping up with the intensity of the second unit.

[coldfish]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

Who would even be that kind of player?

IMO, you need someone with legitimate offensive skills, because if you're just going with a defender, we have enough options already. If you could find someone that had legitimate offensive skills then I think he'll probably cost more than 15m, and I'd also wonder if we're just hurting enough on offense for that to be an upgrade anyway or whether we're better off running out wave after wave of athletic, lengthy perimeter defenders.

The one guy I think fits here potentially is Christian Wood, but I don't think that an offer of Coby + Pat is the best Houston could get if they decide to move him (which they probably should).

Wood would be a dream pick up. Absolutely perfect.

As you note, its almost too good to contemplate. Since Houston is tanking, pick swaps are of little value. The best Chicago could offer would be Pat + Coby + Portland 1st.

IMO
Lonzo / Ayo
Lavine / Caruso
DDR / DJJ / TBJ
Wood / Green
Vuc / Bradley / Alize

is a contender

[donaldtrump_00]

How do people think Coby will fit in with this new-look team?

Hopefully the defensive grit and ball-sharing rubs off on him.

Definitely. Hope he is watching the way fans (and especially the coaching staff) are reacting to the defensive efforts of Caruso, and Ayo among others, and is doubling down on his efforts to contribute on that end of the court.

The Bulls adding a Coby White that has grown on the defensive end, and can still heat up and be an offensive weapon could be a big addition to this team.

It's unfair to be skeptic on Coby White, but I just have a hard time believing he improved his defense drastically, because it was awful. like I didn't think a player could be that far behind the curve. it's not that he doesn't put the effort in it because he truly does. just the flaws he was making seem mental. when you argue with the ref and we all see what he's done wrong and he doesn't seems kind of scary. but I'm sure he can improve just enough to fit in and also the front office has hired more specialist in that specific area.

He still has good value for the team. injury always happens so just incase Lonzo does fall for a few games I feel comfortable he's here to start since he's done it already and knows Zach and Vuc game as well. He should fit in great with Derozan. He will be open for line drives or spot ups.

I think his main problem was he was being looked to as the 2nd option for the most part to lavine. being a 4th option player coming off the bench isn't where i feel he will shine best because I feel he fits now in the starting lineup if he's able to defend. but he's going to be used in short spurts off the bench which is good as well. I feel ayo can beat him out now but I like them both playing together and throw pat will in there next season. he's no starter yet.

I'm saying after watching the celtics game last night. ayo looks like what coby wants to be on the defensive end of the court. there both raw still. coby even now is being forced into different roles is taking a toll on him. from scoring combo guard his rookie year to being a pure point guard in year two. now probably a 2nd string player at either position who can be himself. He's not a vet with that resume.

All I know is it's better to be deep and have options because it's a very young team and you never truly know who will play up to there potential and it's nice to have insurance at the guard spot in general.

[dougthonus]

Wood would be a dream pick up. Absolutely perfect.

As you note, its almost too good to contemplate. Since Houston is tanking, pick swaps are of little value. The best Chicago could offer would be Pat + Coby + Portland 1st.

IMO
Lonzo / Ayo
Lavine / Caruso
DDR / DJJ / TBJ
Wood / Green
Vuc / Bradley / Alize

is a contender

Yeah, I think this is the type of trade you could offer. Maybe Houston would do it. It gives you a two year window with that group.

[sco]

Pat and Coby make $15m next year. The Bulls will be right up against the tax and its extremely unlikely that the team just takes on more salary.

So, if you can get a starting level PF for those two for a serious run, I think you have to do it. The question is if there are any competent PF's out there that fit Chicago's scheme who make around $15m per year.

Who would even be that kind of player?

IMO, you need someone with legitimate offensive skills, because if you're just going with a defender, we have enough options already. If you could find someone that had legitimate offensive skills then I think he'll probably cost more than 15m, and I'd also wonder if we're just hurting enough on offense for that to be an upgrade anyway or whether we're better off running out wave after wave of athletic, lengthy perimeter defenders.

The one guy I think fits here potentially is Christian Wood, but I don't think that an offer of Coby + Pat is the best Houston could get if they decide to move him (which they probably should).

Boucher.