Bulls @ Jazz 8pm CT Mar. 17 2025

[CROBulls]

I’ve been on this forum for I dunnno, ten plus yrs?

Nowhere near the same level of a fan as I have been in the past. NBA doesn’t even appeal to me as much.

With that being said, watching a bunch of millionaires lose purposely ain’t really my thing.

If the other team don’t wanna compete, that’s on them.

Sucks to be a treadmill team but I’d rather see my guy win than lose. I can’t control what the front office does.

The Bulls DO have talent. They aren’t close to competing seriously though.

They do not. Again thats the whole point. We trying to win games while others lose. That's not winning. Thats a fixed match. Issue is that means even if you winning you wont actually get better. Because actual good teams have talent. And those teams which try to lose games gonna end up drafting good players high in lottery. And moment they get player they want in draft they gonna skyrocket by your Bulls like nothing.

Did we not just have one of our young guards win eastern conference player of the week?

Has Josh Giddey not been playing out of his mind in recent weeks?

Is Matas gradually getting better with almost higher upside than any of the rookies? Or no?

Bulls have talent. Might not be the talent you guys want but talented, nonetheless.

That's a long shot. I am not GM, but some guy actually get hot and that's it. I have 5+ years sample size on Coby that he is not NBA player worth keeping and investing money in it. If anything it's a sign you that you need to cash it out. You dont keep riding this wave hoping this is gonna continue. That's lunacy.

Giddey is still same player he always was. Nothing in his game says he figured out to be some great player. Still same strenghts still same weakenesses, difference is he is finally on a bad team where he can get his volume. And wont get yelled bad for his terrible defense, same as Coby. That doesnt make him special.

Matas is a rookie, he is getting better. Too early to tell. He can end up being good player in a few year. But it's not like he is on some crazy trajectory that our draft pick position doesnt matter because we have Matas (next [whatever] in making).

Bulls dont have high end talent. I will take every single roster and player in NBA from this "bad teams" over ours. Which are not bad because talent is bad. But because coaches, management and everybody not playing are doing everything to lose games. Putting and benching those same players in 4th quarters and playing 3rd lines scrubs to lose game to "mighty younglings" Bulls. This is not "win" for Bulls, it's not "win" for our players. If anything its pittance because our team "pretends" they winning actual games.

[pipfan]

Man, Utah looked REALLY bad. We got lucky they picked Williams at #10 over Matas-dumb move Ainge.

That was an ugly game, for the most part.

[Red8911]

Man, Utah looked REALLY bad. We got lucky they picked Williams at #10 over Matas-dumb move Ainge.

That was an ugly game, for the most part.

They should keep tanking it’s really working out for them lol. Lauri looked miserable sitting on the bench in the 4th, doesn’t seem like he’s happy to be there anymore. How can any Utah player be fine with the sht they are pulling.

[Red8911]

They do not. Again thats the whole point. We trying to win games while others lose. That's not winning. Thats a fixed match. Issue is that means even if you winning you wont actually get better. Because actual good teams have talent. And those teams which try to lose games gonna end up drafting good players high in lottery. And moment they get player they want in draft they gonna skyrocket by your Bulls like nothing.

Did we not just have one of our young guards win eastern conference player of the week?

Has Josh Giddey not been playing out of his mind in recent weeks?

Is Matas gradually getting better with almost higher upside than any of the rookies? Or no?

Bulls have talent. Might not be the talent you guys want but talented, nonetheless.

That's a long shot. I am not GM, but some guy actually get hot and that's it. I have 5+ years sample size on Coby that he is not NBA player worth keeping and investing money in it. If anything it's a sign you that you need to cash it out. You dont keep riding this wave hoping this is gonna continue. That's lunacy.

Giddey is still same player he always was. Nothing in his game says he figured out to be some great player. Still same strenghts still same weakenesses, difference is he is finally on a bad team where he can get his volume. And wont get yelled bad for his terrible defense, same as Coby. That doesnt make him special.

Matas is a rookie, he is getting better. Too early to tell. He can end up being good player in a few year. But it's not like he is on some crazy trajectory that our draft pick position doesnt matter because we have Matas (next [whatever] in making).

Bulls dont have high end talent. I will take every single roster and player in NBA from this "bad teams" over ours. Which are not bad because talent is bad. But because coaches, management and everybody not playing are doing everything to lose games. Putting and benching those same players in 4th quarters and playing 3rd lines scrubs to lose game to "mighty younglings" Bulls. This is not "win" for Bulls, it's not "win" for our players. If anything it’s pittance because our team "pretends" they winning actual games.

Why are you diminishing this teams players and wins ? They have been playing some pretty good basketball and have earned these wins. It’s not meaningless.

Everyone wanted these young guys to learn how to win by themselves without Demar, Zach,Vuc( hasn’t been a factor) and now that they are actually doing it fans still complain.

When a young team figures out how to win consistently that’s great news and the future is bright. Players like Coby and Giddey have the potential to be stars and so can Matas but too early to tell for him.

Players actually develop and grow into better players, some of you guys don’t seem to understand that. Obviously a lot more work needs to be done here but tanking for a high pick isn’t the only way to success.

Most of these tanking teams like Utah for example have a long road ahead before they become relevant again and not guaranteed they’ll ever be a contender when it’s all said and done.

[CROBulls]

Did we not just have one of our young guards win eastern conference player of the week?

Has Josh Giddey not been playing out of his mind in recent weeks?

Is Matas gradually getting better with almost higher upside than any of the rookies? Or no?

Bulls have talent. Might not be the talent you guys want but talented, nonetheless.

That's a long shot. I am not GM, but some guy actually get hot and that's it. I have 5+ years sample size on Coby that he is not NBA player worth keeping and investing money in it. If anything it's a sign you that you need to cash it out. You dont keep riding this wave hoping this is gonna continue. That's lunacy.

Giddey is still same player he always was. Nothing in his game says he figured out to be some great player. Still same strenghts still same weakenesses, difference is he is finally on a bad team where he can get his volume. And wont get yelled bad for his terrible defense, same as Coby. That doesnt make him special.
I
Matas is a rookie, he is getting better. Too early to tell. He can end up being good player in a few year. But it's not like he is on some crazy trajectory that our draft pick position doesnt matter because we have Matas (next [whatever] in making).

Bulls dont have high end talent. I will take every single roster and player in NBA from this "bad teams" over ours. Which are not bad because talent is bad. But because coaches, management and everybody not playing are doing everything to lose games. Putting and benching those same players in 4th quarters and playing 3rd lines scrubs to lose game to "mighty younglings" Bulls. This is not "win" for Bulls, it's not "win" for our players. If anything it’s pittance because our team "pretends" they winning actual games.

Why are you diminishing this teams players and wins ? They have been playing some pretty good basketball and have earned these wins. It’s not meaningless.

Everyone wanted these young guys to learn how to win by themselves without Demar, Zach,Vuc( hasn’t been a factor) and now that they are actually doing it fans still complain.

When a young team figures out how to win consistently that’s great news and the future is bright. Players like Coby and Giddey have the potential to be stars and so can Matas but too early to tell for him.

Players actually develop and grow into better players, some of you guys don’t seem to understand that. Obviously a lot more work needs to be done here but tanking for a high pick isn’t the only way to success.

Most of these tanking teams like Utah for example have a long road ahead before they become relevant again and not guaranteed they’ll ever be a contender when it’s all said and done.

If Bulls had talent you speak we have they would have a lot better record than whatever this is. They would be in playoffs, media and everybody else including this board would be f hyped that we have players any damn worth to build around. And whats most important they would actually win games against any non bottom teams. But they can only win games against team which actively by any means try lose games.

Ill rather be Utah Jazz than Chicago Bulls in 10 out 10 scenarios. That will tell you both Jazz fans and Bulls fans, and you can go make vote pool on general board and majority will answer you what franchise is in better position now and in future. Democracy baby. If you think Bulls are in any way shape or form on way to be relevant you are mistaken. We never being ever since this franchise is created further away from any success. Unless you count "playin revenue" for Jerry's pocket a "success".

[rjforniss]

Look we obviously aren’t winning a championship any time soon and we definitely aren’t getting the #1 pick, but I will say I have actually enjoyed watching bulls basketball these last few weeks more than I have in quite some time. These young guys go out and compete and leave it all out on the floor. No more is it just standing around watching one guy go to work, but everybody moves and slashes. Oh, and PW still sucks.

[drosestruts]

Gotta tank so you can draft players who will probably never be as good as Coby White (and Coby isn't really even all that good)


There's no rookie guard this year better than Coby. Before you Castle fan boys jump in here and talk about potential, I'm talking about right now.


Going to the 2023 draft - same conclusion. No guard is better than Coby. Feel free to tank for Scoot Henderson or Anthony Black. Just don't call it a path to being better.

2022 draft - I'll give you Jalen Williams.

In three drafts we've found one guard who's better than Coby.

Shall we keep going?

2021 - Cunnignham is better. Jalen Green and Giddey are probably on the same tier as Coby. Falls off pretty hard after that - Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Josh Promo, Chris Duarte. Some of these lottery picks aren't even in the NBA anymore

2020 - Ant clearly. LaMelo sure. Haliburton also. Maxey yes. Quickly probably same tier as Coby. Bane is better. - good year for guards to be honest.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the draft is that there's all this talent there.


Coby isn't even that special of a player. In the past 5 drafts there's been 7 guards i'd say are clearly better than Coby White.

the yearning for a high draft pick has some magical path to acquiring better players just doesn't line up with reality.

You can draft a James Wiseman or Patrick Williams just as likely as you are to draft an Anthony Edwards.

[NecessaryEvil]

I haven’t been fully invested in the team in yrs but I’m proud of the young guys. They’re developing an identity and sticking to it.

Three large expirings going into next season (Vooch, Collins, Huerter) and a handful of young guys to attach, if need be.

This offseason may be kind to us.

[BullChit]

Alright I get the chatter that we are bums laying but how about a different metric.

I am actually looking at our effort and fight in games against the top teams like Clippers and even the Cavs game since the trade and all star break especially.

Now the Cavs game looks worse than it is by end result but we are playing the better teams MUUUUCH differently and much harder than we did pre trade and ASB.

That's actually more indicative of a young team learning to play and win more than just beating the bum teams who are trying to lose.

[Dan Z]

Gotta tank so you can draft players who will probably never be as good as Coby White (and Coby isn't really even all that good)


There's no rookie guard this year better than Coby. Before you Castle fan boys jump in here and talk about potential, I'm talking about right now.


Going to the 2023 draft - same conclusion. No guard is better than Coby. Feel free to tank for Scoot Henderson or Anthony Black. Just don't call it a path to being better.

2022 draft - I'll give you Jalen Williams.

In three drafts we've found one guard who's better than Coby.

Shall we keep going?

2021 - Cunnignham is better. Jalen Green and Giddey are probably on the same tier as Coby. Falls off pretty hard after that - Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Josh Promo, Chris Duarte. Some of these lottery picks aren't even in the NBA anymore

2020 - Ant clearly. LaMelo sure. Haliburton also. Maxey yes. Quickly probably same tier as Coby. Bane is better. - good year for guards to be honest.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the draft is that there's all this talent there.


Coby isn't even that special of a player. In the past 5 drafts there's been 7 guards i'd say are clearly better than Coby White.

the yearning for a high draft pick has some magical path to acquiring better players just doesn't line up with reality.

You can draft a James Wiseman or Patrick Williams just as likely as you are to draft an Anthony Edwards.

Nobody is tanking only for a guard. In this draft there's a guy named Flagg...

You can't compare 25 year old Coby to 19/20 year olds who are in their first year in the league. It took Coby awhile to develop and most players need a few seasons.

Guards only...I think you can argue that Jaden Ivey has potential to be better than Coby and I bet he gets there. Look at their seasons at age 22. I know Ivey is hurt, but he showed improvement.

You can also debate that Dyson Daniels and Jalen Suggs are better depending on how you value defense.

In his own draft Tyler Herro is better.

The reason why some of us want to tank is because we think the Bulls need top end talent and the draft could help get such a player. I don't see a path getting one through trades or free agency.

I also don't see a team where the "big three" are Coby, Giddey and Matas going very far (and I like all three of those players).

EDIT: I'd like to add...you can tank while keeping Coby. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation.

[drosestruts]

Gotta tank so you can draft players who will probably never be as good as Coby White (and Coby isn't really even all that good)


There's no rookie guard this year better than Coby. Before you Castle fan boys jump in here and talk about potential, I'm talking about right now.


Going to the 2023 draft - same conclusion. No guard is better than Coby. Feel free to tank for Scoot Henderson or Anthony Black. Just don't call it a path to being better.

2022 draft - I'll give you Jalen Williams.

In three drafts we've found one guard who's better than Coby.

Shall we keep going?

2021 - Cunnignham is better. Jalen Green and Giddey are probably on the same tier as Coby. Falls off pretty hard after that - Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Josh Promo, Chris Duarte. Some of these lottery picks aren't even in the NBA anymore

2020 - Ant clearly. LaMelo sure. Haliburton also. Maxey yes. Quickly probably same tier as Coby. Bane is better. - good year for guards to be honest.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the draft is that there's all this talent there.


Coby isn't even that special of a player. In the past 5 drafts there's been 7 guards i'd say are clearly better than Coby White.

the yearning for a high draft pick has some magical path to acquiring better players just doesn't line up with reality.

You can draft a James Wiseman or Patrick Williams just as likely as you are to draft an Anthony Edwards.

Nobody is tanking only for a guard. In this draft there's a guy named Flagg...

You can't compare 25 year old Coby to 19/20 year olds who are in their first year in the league. It took Coby awhile to develop and most players need a few seasons.

Guards only...I think you can argue that Jaden Ivey has potential to be better than Coby and I bet he gets there. Look at their seasons at age 22. I know Ivey is hurt, but he showed improvement.

You can also debate that Dyson Daniels and Jalen Suggs are better depending on how you value defense.

In his own draft Tyler Herro is better.

The reason why some of us want to tank is because we think the Bulls need top end talent and the draft could help get such a player. I don't see a path getting one through trades or free agency.

I also don't see a team where the "big three" are Coby, Giddey and Matas going very far (and I like all three of those players).

EDIT: I'd like to add...you can tank while keeping Coby. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation.

It does appear we can't tank with Coby though. We traded Zach. We've gone stretches not playing vuc, ayo, Williams, giddey, and others. Coby has been pretty consistent in playing and well, we're certainly not tanking.

I think Cooper Flagg is likely to be the only player in this draft who makes significant impacts on winning.

I like Dylan Harper, but all in all I find him to likely be pretty comparable to Coby.

Even Flagg I don't view as a franchise savior type guy. Say the Jazz draft Flagg. They're still likely a bottom 4 team next year. The West is tough, they could miss the playoffs every year.

Kevin Durant can't make the playoffs in the West and he's one of the best players ever, and plays alongside Devin Booker who's pretty darn good himself.

[Dan Z]

Gotta tank so you can draft players who will probably never be as good as Coby White (and Coby isn't really even all that good)


There's no rookie guard this year better than Coby. Before you Castle fan boys jump in here and talk about potential, I'm talking about right now.


Going to the 2023 draft - same conclusion. No guard is better than Coby. Feel free to tank for Scoot Henderson or Anthony Black. Just don't call it a path to being better.

2022 draft - I'll give you Jalen Williams.

In three drafts we've found one guard who's better than Coby.

Shall we keep going?

2021 - Cunnignham is better. Jalen Green and Giddey are probably on the same tier as Coby. Falls off pretty hard after that - Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Josh Promo, Chris Duarte. Some of these lottery picks aren't even in the NBA anymore

2020 - Ant clearly. LaMelo sure. Haliburton also. Maxey yes. Quickly probably same tier as Coby. Bane is better. - good year for guards to be honest.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the draft is that there's all this talent there.


Coby isn't even that special of a player. In the past 5 drafts there's been 7 guards i'd say are clearly better than Coby White.

the yearning for a high draft pick has some magical path to acquiring better players just doesn't line up with reality.

You can draft a James Wiseman or Patrick Williams just as likely as you are to draft an Anthony Edwards.

Nobody is tanking only for a guard. In this draft there's a guy named Flagg...

You can't compare 25 year old Coby to 19/20 year olds who are in their first year in the league. It took Coby awhile to develop and most players need a few seasons.

Guards only...I think you can argue that Jaden Ivey has potential to be better than Coby and I bet he gets there. Look at their seasons at age 22. I know Ivey is hurt, but he showed improvement.

You can also debate that Dyson Daniels and Jalen Suggs are better depending on how you value defense.

In his own draft Tyler Herro is better.

The reason why some of us want to tank is because we think the Bulls need top end talent and the draft could help get such a player. I don't see a path getting one through trades or free agency.

I also don't see a team where the "big three" are Coby, Giddey and Matas going very far (and I like all three of those players).

EDIT: I'd like to add...you can tank while keeping Coby. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation.

It does appear we can't tank with Coby though. We traded Zach. We've gone stretches not playing vuc, ayo, Williams, giddey, and others. Coby has been pretty consistent in playing and well, we're certainly not tanking.

I think Cooper Flagg is likely to be the only player in this draft who makes significant impacts on winning.

I like Dylan Harper, but all in all I find him to likely be pretty comparable to Coby.

Even Flagg I don't view as a franchise savior type guy. Say the Jazz draft Flagg. They're still likely a bottom 4 team next year. The West is tough, they could miss the playoffs every year.

Kevin Durant can't make the playoffs in the West and he's one of the best players ever, and plays alongside Devin Booker who's pretty darn good himself.

The Bulls don't want to tank and haven't done it all year. Look at Utah...they sat their best players (such as Markkanen) late in the game so they could lose to the Bulls. They also didn't play Collin Sexton (one of their best players) and the reason was "rest".

Those are things the Bulls aren't willing to do. If they were they could tank and still keep Coby.

As for Flagg...he's 18 years old and having a great college season. I have no idea how he'll do in the NBA, but any team would love to have him. If Utah gets him then they'll have a cornerstone to build upon. Maybe they make moves to improve asap (with Flagg)? Or they trade Markkanen for more assets and continue building. Either way it's good problem to have. The Bulls don't have any players with the same level of upside that Flagg has. If they did I'd feel different about the roster.

[drosestruts]

Nobody is tanking only for a guard. In this draft there's a guy named Flagg...

You can't compare 25 year old Coby to 19/20 year olds who are in their first year in the league. It took Coby awhile to develop and most players need a few seasons.

Guards only...I think you can argue that Jaden Ivey has potential to be better than Coby and I bet he gets there. Look at their seasons at age 22. I know Ivey is hurt, but he showed improvement.

You can also debate that Dyson Daniels and Jalen Suggs are better depending on how you value defense.

In his own draft Tyler Herro is better.

The reason why some of us want to tank is because we think the Bulls need top end talent and the draft could help get such a player. I don't see a path getting one through trades or free agency.

I also don't see a team where the "big three" are Coby, Giddey and Matas going very far (and I like all three of those players).

EDIT: I'd like to add...you can tank while keeping Coby. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation.

It does appear we can't tank with Coby though. We traded Zach. We've gone stretches not playing vuc, ayo, Williams, giddey, and others. Coby has been pretty consistent in playing and well, we're certainly not tanking.

I think Cooper Flagg is likely to be the only player in this draft who makes significant impacts on winning.

I like Dylan Harper, but all in all I find him to likely be pretty comparable to Coby.

Even Flagg I don't view as a franchise savior type guy. Say the Jazz draft Flagg. They're still likely a bottom 4 team next year. The West is tough, they could miss the playoffs every year.

Kevin Durant can't make the playoffs in the West and he's one of the best players ever, and plays alongside Devin Booker who's pretty darn good himself.

The Bulls don't want to tank and haven't done it all year. Look at Utah...they sat their best players (such as Markkanen) late in the game so they could lose to the Bulls. They also didn't play Collin Sexton (one of their best players) and the reason was "rest".

Those are things the Bulls aren't willing to do. If they were they could tank and still keep Coby.

As for Flagg...he's 18 years old and having a great college season. I have no idea how he'll do in the NBA, but any team would love to have him. If Utah gets him then they'll have a cornerstone to build upon. Maybe they make moves to improve asap (with Flagg)? Or they trade Markkanen for more assets and continue building. Either way it's good problem to have. The Bulls don't have any players with the same level of upside that Flagg has. If they did I'd feel different about the roster.

The Jazz are 13-39 when Sexton plays. Sitting him isn't some masterclass in tanking. They suck with him, they suck without him.

The Bulls have sat plenty of players in recent weeks.

Heck you could argue playing Vuc and Williams as much as we do is an attempted tank move.

I guess I don't value having a cornerstone if you have nothing else. The Jazz with Flagg are still a bottom tier western conference team.

I don't see a market for Markkanen at his new contract.

Is Zion a franchise cornerstone? If so, it doesn't appear to be helping New Orleans.

[Dan Z]

It does appear we can't tank with Coby though. We traded Zach. We've gone stretches not playing vuc, ayo, Williams, giddey, and others. Coby has been pretty consistent in playing and well, we're certainly not tanking.

I think Cooper Flagg is likely to be the only player in this draft who makes significant impacts on winning.

I like Dylan Harper, but all in all I find him to likely be pretty comparable to Coby.

Even Flagg I don't view as a franchise savior type guy. Say the Jazz draft Flagg. They're still likely a bottom 4 team next year. The West is tough, they could miss the playoffs every year.

Kevin Durant can't make the playoffs in the West and he's one of the best players ever, and plays alongside Devin Booker who's pretty darn good himself.

The Bulls don't want to tank and haven't done it all year. Look at Utah...they sat their best players (such as Markkanen) late in the game so they could lose to the Bulls. They also didn't play Collin Sexton (one of their best players) and the reason was "rest".

Those are things the Bulls aren't willing to do. If they were they could tank and still keep Coby.

As for Flagg...he's 18 years old and having a great college season. I have no idea how he'll do in the NBA, but any team would love to have him. If Utah gets him then they'll have a cornerstone to build upon. Maybe they make moves to improve asap (with Flagg)? Or they trade Markkanen for more assets and continue building. Either way it's good problem to have. The Bulls don't have any players with the same level of upside that Flagg has. If they did I'd feel different about the roster.

The Jazz are 13-39 when Sexton plays. Sitting him isn't some masterclass in tanking. They suck with him, they suck without him.

The Bulls have sat plenty of players in recent weeks.

Heck you could argue playing Vuc and Williams as much as we do is an attempted tank move.

I guess I don't value having a cornerstone if you have nothing else. The Jazz with Flagg are still a bottom tier western conference team.

I don't see a market for Markkanen at his new contract.

Is Zion a franchise cornerstone? If so, it doesn't appear to be helping New Orleans.

Zion barely plays because he's been injured often. They also lost Dejounte Murray for the season and he might miss most of next year too. Injuries are a big reason why New Orleans is bad right now.

If Utah gets Flagg then they can start building a team around him. You don't think that kind of team building works? I bet the Spurs will be good soon now that they have Wemby. The Magic got better with Banchero (injuries have messed up this season). Detroit improved a lot this year and a part of that is Cades improvements.

If you don't see the value in getting a top talent like Flagg then I don't know what to tell you. We can agree to disagree.

[MGB8]

Gotta tank so you can draft players who will probably never be as good as Coby White (and Coby isn't really even all that good)


There's no rookie guard this year better than Coby. Before you Castle fan boys jump in here and talk about potential, I'm talking about right now.


Going to the 2023 draft - same conclusion. No guard is better than Coby. Feel free to tank for Scoot Henderson or Anthony Black. Just don't call it a path to being better.

2022 draft - I'll give you Jalen Williams.

In three drafts we've found one guard who's better than Coby.

Shall we keep going?

2021 - Cunnignham is better. Jalen Green and Giddey are probably on the same tier as Coby. Falls off pretty hard after that - Davion Mitchell, James Bouknight, Josh Promo, Chris Duarte. Some of these lottery picks aren't even in the NBA anymore

2020 - Ant clearly. LaMelo sure. Haliburton also. Maxey yes. Quickly probably same tier as Coby. Bane is better. - good year for guards to be honest.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the draft is that there's all this talent there.


Coby isn't even that special of a player. In the past 5 drafts there's been 7 guards i'd say are clearly better than Coby White.

the yearning for a high draft pick has some magical path to acquiring better players just doesn't line up with reality.

You can draft a James Wiseman or Patrick Williams just as likely as you are to draft an Anthony Edwards.

In fairness, re 2020, Vassell (when healthy) is in same tier as Coby, and Nesmith, Cole Anthony not that much worse. White’s current PPG / PP36 (and last season’s) is, IMO, a little bit inflated and would not be as high on better teams.

2021, Suggs (hurt now) was, to start the year, a better all around player than Coby, and on par as a scorer. Cam Thomas puts up better scoring numbers on a worse team, but I view him as roughly equivalent right now. Trey Murphy is a different category of player, but all in all (when healthy) likely more impactful on winning (despite NoLa’s mess). Grimes playing equivalent. But you also have not just Cade but Mobley, Barnes, Jalen Johnson, Sengun, Wagner, Kuminga - all better.

2022 draft was pretty weak outside top 4 and Williams, but Sharpe, Mathurin likely same tier as White. Eason maybe, too, though so different hard to compare. 2023 weak outside of Wemby and Miller. 2024 too soon to tell - a lot of developmental types - that have flashed but no one has really blown up.

[drosestruts]

The Bulls don't want to tank and haven't done it all year. Look at Utah...they sat their best players (such as Markkanen) late in the game so they could lose to the Bulls. They also didn't play Collin Sexton (one of their best players) and the reason was "rest".

Those are things the Bulls aren't willing to do. If they were they could tank and still keep Coby.

As for Flagg...he's 18 years old and having a great college season. I have no idea how he'll do in the NBA, but any team would love to have him. If Utah gets him then they'll have a cornerstone to build upon. Maybe they make moves to improve asap (with Flagg)? Or they trade Markkanen for more assets and continue building. Either way it's good problem to have. The Bulls don't have any players with the same level of upside that Flagg has. If they did I'd feel different about the roster.

The Jazz are 13-39 when Sexton plays. Sitting him isn't some masterclass in tanking. They suck with him, they suck without him.

The Bulls have sat plenty of players in recent weeks.

Heck you could argue playing Vuc and Williams as much as we do is an attempted tank move.

I guess I don't value having a cornerstone if you have nothing else. The Jazz with Flagg are still a bottom tier western conference team.

I don't see a market for Markkanen at his new contract.

Is Zion a franchise cornerstone? If so, it doesn't appear to be helping New Orleans.

Zion barely plays because he's been injured often. They also lost Dejounte Murray for the season and he might miss most of next year too. Injuries are a big reason why New Orleans is bad right now.

If Utah gets Flagg then they can start building a team around him. You don't think that kind of team building works? I bet the Spurs will be good soon now that they have Wemby. The Magic got better with Banchero (injuries have messed up this season). Detroit improved a lot this year and a part of that is Cades improvements.

If you don't see the value in getting a top talent like Flagg then I don't know what to tell you. We can agree to disagree.

I am admittingly being difficult. Having high-end talent is obviously good.

But all those teams you mentioned - Orlando, Detroit, New Orleans.

Those are all at best 1st round exits.

Our ceiling with Coby, Giddey, and Matas isn't all that different from the ceiling of these teams with "young stars"

It's pure "grass is greener on the other side" mentality

This board is harder and more critical of the Bulls than they are other teams around the league.

[Chi town]

Bully Ball SG Only Coby is an avg starter. If he can get to average on D he becomes a winning player and probably worth 25M per. Getting a strong defensive C would help him alot but wont' be enough. He has to commit to playing D.

[Dan Z]

The Jazz are 13-39 when Sexton plays. Sitting him isn't some masterclass in tanking. They suck with him, they suck without him.

The Bulls have sat plenty of players in recent weeks.

Heck you could argue playing Vuc and Williams as much as we do is an attempted tank move.

I guess I don't value having a cornerstone if you have nothing else. The Jazz with Flagg are still a bottom tier western conference team.

I don't see a market for Markkanen at his new contract.

Is Zion a franchise cornerstone? If so, it doesn't appear to be helping New Orleans.

Zion barely plays because he's been injured often. They also lost Dejounte Murray for the season and he might miss most of next year too. Injuries are a big reason why New Orleans is bad right now.

If Utah gets Flagg then they can start building a team around him. You don't think that kind of team building works? I bet the Spurs will be good soon now that they have Wemby. The Magic got better with Banchero (injuries have messed up this season). Detroit improved a lot this year and a part of that is Cades improvements.

If you don't see the value in getting a top talent like Flagg then I don't know what to tell you. We can agree to disagree.

I am admittingly being difficult. Having high-end talent is obviously good.

But all those teams you mentioned - Orlando, Detroit, New Orleans.

Those are all at best 1st round exits.

Our ceiling with Coby, Giddey, and Matas isn't all that different from the ceiling of these teams with "young stars"

It's pure "grass is greener on the other side" mentality

This board is harder and more critical of the Bulls than they are other teams around the league.

Detroit went from a 14 win season to a 45/46 win season (which is what they're on pace to do). Part of that's the vets, but part of that's the young players too. Cade became an all-star, Duran improved, etc. They also should get Ivey back and he did well until he got injured. They can build on this no matter what happens in the playoffs.

Orlando started the season strong, but fell off due to injuries. They can build off their playoff experience too.

New Orleans has had a bad season and they'll most likely get a top five pick to add to their roster. In the off season they can figure out what to change with their roster and they have assets/room to make a few moves. They can also decide what to do with Zion (who is playing well right now).

In the case of all three teams the Bulls don't have any players with the same potential as Cade, Paolo and Zion. It's debatable that Giddey or Coby even have the potential to be an all-star (and I like both players). It's why I continue to say the Bulls need more talent on their roster and why it's important to do well in the draft.

[drosestruts]

Zion barely plays because he's been injured often. They also lost Dejounte Murray for the season and he might miss most of next year too. Injuries are a big reason why New Orleans is bad right now.

If Utah gets Flagg then they can start building a team around him. You don't think that kind of team building works? I bet the Spurs will be good soon now that they have Wemby. The Magic got better with Banchero (injuries have messed up this season). Detroit improved a lot this year and a part of that is Cades improvements.

If you don't see the value in getting a top talent like Flagg then I don't know what to tell you. We can agree to disagree.

I am admittingly being difficult. Having high-end talent is obviously good.

But all those teams you mentioned - Orlando, Detroit, New Orleans.

Those are all at best 1st round exits.

Our ceiling with Coby, Giddey, and Matas isn't all that different from the ceiling of these teams with "young stars"

It's pure "grass is greener on the other side" mentality

This board is harder and more critical of the Bulls than they are other teams around the league.

Detroit went from a 14 win season to a 45/46 win season (which is what they're on pace to do). Part of that's the vets, but part of that's the young players too. Cade became an all-star, Duran improved, etc. They also should get Ivey back and he did well until he got injured. They can build on this no matter what happens in the playoffs.

Orlando started the season strong, but fell off due to injuries. They can build off their playoff experience too.

New Orleans has had a bad season and they'll most likely get a top five pick to add to their roster. In the off season they can figure out what to change with their roster and they have assets/room to make a few moves. They can also decide what to do with Zion (who is playing well right now).

In the case of all three teams the Bulls don't have any players with the same potential as Cade, Paolo and Zion. It's debatable that Giddey or Coby even have the potential to be an all-star (and I like both players). It's why I continue to say the Bulls need more talent on their roster and why it's important to do well in the draft.

Player A: 25 points on 46/35/86 shooting splits. 56% TS%. 2:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player B: 17 points on 48/41/83 shooting splits. 59% TS%. 2.3:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 22% USG

Player C: 25 points on 44/32/72 shooting splits. 54% TS%. 1.6:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player D: 19 points on 44/35/90 shooting splits. 58% TS%. 1.9:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 24% USG

Player E: 24 points on 56/23/65 shooting splits. 60% TS%. 1.7:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 35% USG

Amongst these 5 players you feel there's 3 players worth building around and 2 players who aren't on the same level?

I like Cade and Zion. In full transparency I'm a bit of a Banchero hater. I think his all-star nod was totally underserved. He puts up big numbers on terrible efficiency (shouldn't be too hard for you to guess who he is above).

When it comes to Cade - I actually think he's a pretty similar player to who he was last year. Harris helps. Beasley having a career year helps.

[Dan Z]

I am admittingly being difficult. Having high-end talent is obviously good.

But all those teams you mentioned - Orlando, Detroit, New Orleans.

Those are all at best 1st round exits.

Our ceiling with Coby, Giddey, and Matas isn't all that different from the ceiling of these teams with "young stars"

It's pure "grass is greener on the other side" mentality

This board is harder and more critical of the Bulls than they are other teams around the league.

Detroit went from a 14 win season to a 45/46 win season (which is what they're on pace to do). Part of that's the vets, but part of that's the young players too. Cade became an all-star, Duran improved, etc. They also should get Ivey back and he did well until he got injured. They can build on this no matter what happens in the playoffs.

Orlando started the season strong, but fell off due to injuries. They can build off their playoff experience too.

New Orleans has had a bad season and they'll most likely get a top five pick to add to their roster. In the off season they can figure out what to change with their roster and they have assets/room to make a few moves. They can also decide what to do with Zion (who is playing well right now).

In the case of all three teams the Bulls don't have any players with the same potential as Cade, Paolo and Zion. It's debatable that Giddey or Coby even have the potential to be an all-star (and I like both players). It's why I continue to say the Bulls need more talent on their roster and why it's important to do well in the draft.

Player A: 25 points on 46/35/86 shooting splits. 56% TS%. 2:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player B: 17 points on 48/41/83 shooting splits. 59% TS%. 2.3:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 22% USG

Player C: 25 points on 44/32/72 shooting splits. 54% TS%. 1.6:1 Assist/Turnover Ratio. 33% USG

Player D: 19 points on 44/35/90 shooting splits. 58% TS%. 1.9:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 24% USG

Player E: 24 points on 56/23/65 shooting splits. 60% TS%. 1.7:1 Assist/Turnover ratio. 35% USG

Amongst these 5 players you feel there's 3 players worth building around and 2 players who aren't on the same level?

I like Cade and Zion. In full transparency I'm a bit of a Banchero hater. I think his all-star nod was totally underserved. He puts up big numbers on terrible efficiency (shouldn't be too hard for you to guess who he is above).

When it comes to Cade - I actually think he's a pretty similar player to who he was last year. Harris helps. Beasley having a career year helps.

Stats don't tell the whole story and you know that. Nobody would take a player like Coby over Cade. Cade right now is leading the Pistons to 47 wins (he's the #1 player on that team no matter how you try to spin it).

Banchero on the other hand has had to deal with injuries this year. I'm mixed on him, but he's also a player that everyone would take over Coby.

Why are they being compared?

And yes I didn't mention Zion, but teams would take him over Coby too (even with Zion's injury concerns).

Coby doesn't have the upside the other three do and I'm sure I'm not alone thinking that.