Moderators: HomoSapien, kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6
DASMACKDOWN wrote:The one thing I appreciate with Giddey, is he is the reason why we finally have an identity on offense.
We would have never achieved it with Coby or Ayo. Giddey is the combination of both to where he pushes it like Ayo and passes it better than both.
The fact that Giddey is an elite rebounder, it makes even easier to play like that more often as well.
Dan Z wrote:kodo wrote:DASMACKDOWN wrote:I actually think that whole statement about Chicago not being a free agent destination is highly overblown.
When you sit back and think about it, only the Cali based teams and Miami have been teams that players would like to go for reasons completely unrelated to the success of the team.
Lakers get players whether is has money or not. Whether they are a lottery team or not. Doesn't matter. Only those handful of teams can do that.
For the other 28 teams in the league, they have to draft, trade or entice with an overpay to acquire them.
That is how the league has been built.
If the Bulls had a great uprising young team and plenty of money, the players will come. It really is as simple as that. Don't let the post dynasty KG and Tmac situations fool you.
Every time when the top stars flirted with coming here, it mostly was because we didn't have enough money. Carmelo comes to mind.
Agreed with all that, it's NY or LA where the city matters. Everyone else, it's money & team success. We're with everyone else. No difference between us and say Orlando.
But I don't even know if the cap space part matters anymore, when FAs move teams these days its because no other team wants them enough to trade for them. Almost everyone valuable moves teams via trade like Butler, KD, Dame, etc.. The guys who moved in actual FA were Tobias Harris and Paul George, both a waste of cap space. Even Brandon Ingram didn't hit FA. Heck we even got a great deal for Derozan as he left, we just gave it to San Antonio.
i agree. If the Bulls plan is to attract free agents in the near future then it's a bad one. As you point out players don't typically leave via free agency anymore and generally it's been through trade. If AK wants to do that then he needs to build up assets and he hasn't been willing to do that (for example, deciding not to take on Barnes so he could get the Kings 2031 swap).
Chi town wrote:Dan Z wrote:kodo wrote:
Agreed with all that, it's NY or LA where the city matters. Everyone else, it's money & team success. We're with everyone else. No difference between us and say Orlando.
But I don't even know if the cap space part matters anymore, when FAs move teams these days its because no other team wants them enough to trade for them. Almost everyone valuable moves teams via trade like Butler, KD, Dame, etc.. The guys who moved in actual FA were Tobias Harris and Paul George, both a waste of cap space. Even Brandon Ingram didn't hit FA. Heck we even got a great deal for Derozan as he left, we just gave it to San Antonio.
i agree. If the Bulls plan is to attract free agents in the near future then it's a bad one. As you point out players don't typically leave via free agency anymore and generally it's been through trade. If AK wants to do that then he needs to build up assets and he hasn't been willing to do that (for example, deciding not to take on Barnes so he could get the Kings 2031 swap).
AK and the new NBA is played over the cap with trades.
I fully expect AK to go all in at this coming trade deadline using our expirings and picks to do another dumb Vuc like trade.
WindyCityBorn wrote:Dan Z wrote:kodo wrote:
Agreed with all that, it's NY or LA where the city matters. Everyone else, it's money & team success. We're with everyone else. No difference between us and say Orlando.
But I don't even know if the cap space part matters anymore, when FAs move teams these days its because no other team wants them enough to trade for them. Almost everyone valuable moves teams via trade like Butler, KD, Dame, etc.. The guys who moved in actual FA were Tobias Harris and Paul George, both a waste of cap space. Even Brandon Ingram didn't hit FA. Heck we even got a great deal for Derozan as he left, we just gave it to San Antonio.
i agree. If the Bulls plan is to attract free agents in the near future then it's a bad one. As you point out players don't typically leave via free agency anymore and generally it's been through trade. If AK wants to do that then he needs to build up assets and he hasn't been willing to do that (for example, deciding not to take on Barnes so he could get the Kings 2031 swap).
We don’t need any more picks to acquire a star. We can trade 3 or 4 of our own when/if necessary. I’d rather see us continue to acquire and develop younger players through draft or trade. Not take on bad contracts for middling picks.
Dan Z wrote:WindyCityBorn wrote:Dan Z wrote:
i agree. If the Bulls plan is to attract free agents in the near future then it's a bad one. As you point out players don't typically leave via free agency anymore and generally it's been through trade. If AK wants to do that then he needs to build up assets and he hasn't been willing to do that (for example, deciding not to take on Barnes so he could get the Kings 2031 swap).
We don’t need any more picks to acquire a star. We can trade 3 or 4 of our own when/if necessary. I’d rather see us continue to acquire and develop younger players through draft or trade. Not take on bad contracts for middling picks.
I'd rather develop through the draft too, but AK doesn't want to do that.
I'm not sure if there's a young player available in a trade that would make sense to pursue.
sco wrote:Dan Z wrote:WindyCityBorn wrote:
We don’t need any more picks to acquire a star. We can trade 3 or 4 of our own when/if necessary. I’d rather see us continue to acquire and develop younger players through draft or trade. Not take on bad contracts for middling picks.
I'd rather develop through the draft too, but AK doesn't want to do that.
I'm not sure if there's a young player available in a trade that would make sense to pursue.
There are teams who are up against the 2nd apron who want value for letting guys go (e.g. Minny or GSW or LAL) or teams that have multiple good players at the same position and needs at a different position (BKN or DAL). Of that latter group, they might be interesting in our surplus of guards for a center who AK would make BD start.
Dan Z wrote:sco wrote:Dan Z wrote:
I'd rather develop through the draft too, but AK doesn't want to do that.
I'm not sure if there's a young player available in a trade that would make sense to pursue.
There are teams who are up against the 2nd apron who want value for letting guys go (e.g. Minny or GSW or LAL) or teams that have multiple good players at the same position and needs at a different position (BKN or DAL). Of that latter group, they might be interesting in our surplus of guards for a center who AK would make BD start.
What players, on those teams, do you think the Bulls should pursue?
Nic Claxton? I don't know why the Nets would want anything the Bulls could offer unless picks were involved.
Rui Hachimura or Jarred Vanderbilt? Okay players...maybe the Bulls could figure out a deal involving Vucevic?
Moses Moody? Jonathan Kuminga? I'm not very interested in Kuminga. What would the Warriors want for Moody?
Those players might help, but none of them would move the needle that much.
sco wrote:Dan Z wrote:sco wrote:There are teams who are up against the 2nd apron who want value for letting guys go (e.g. Minny or GSW or LAL) or teams that have multiple good players at the same position and needs at a different position (BKN or DAL). Of that latter group, they might be interesting in our surplus of guards for a center who AK would make BD start.
What players, on those teams, do you think the Bulls should pursue?
Nic Claxton? I don't know why the Nets would want anything the Bulls could offer unless picks were involved.
Rui Hachimura or Jarred Vanderbilt? Okay players...maybe the Bulls could figure out a deal involving Vucevic?
Moses Moody? Jonathan Kuminga? I'm not very interested in Kuminga. What would the Warriors want for Moody?
Those players might help, but none of them would move the needle that much.
So I see you say that you want a needle mover and you don't want to trade pick(s)? Got it.
MGB8 wrote:Chi town wrote:Dan Z wrote:
i agree. If the Bulls plan is to attract free agents in the near future then it's a bad one. As you point out players don't typically leave via free agency anymore and generally it's been through trade. If AK wants to do that then he needs to build up assets and he hasn't been willing to do that (for example, deciding not to take on Barnes so he could get the Kings 2031 swap).
AK and the new NBA is played over the cap with trades.
I fully expect AK to go all in at this coming trade deadline using our expirings and picks to do another dumb Vuc like trade.
Bradley Beal. I like some, I d t think you need to trade Coby for him. - I think they can coexist, though Coby might be unhappy going back t coming off the bench - but can still ply both 30 minutes with 12 minutes overlap against many teams. Between that and injuries, think it would be fine. But if have to trade Coby - would still seriously consider of could move Pat and Vuc as well. Pat-Vuc-Coby for Beal and 29. Do it AKME.
dougthonus wrote:MGB8 wrote:Chi town wrote:
AK and the new NBA is played over the cap with trades.
I fully expect AK to go all in at this coming trade deadline using our expirings and picks to do another dumb Vuc like trade.
Bradley Beal. I like some, I d t think you need to trade Coby for him. - I think they can coexist, though Coby might be unhappy going back t coming off the bench - but can still ply both 30 minutes with 12 minutes overlap against many teams. Between that and injuries, think it would be fine. But if have to trade Coby - would still seriously consider of could move Pat and Vuc as well. Pat-Vuc-Coby for Beal and 29. Do it AKME.
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
sco wrote:dougthonus wrote:MGB8 wrote:
Bradley Beal. I like some, I d t think you need to trade Coby for him. - I think they can coexist, though Coby might be unhappy going back t coming off the bench - but can still ply both 30 minutes with 12 minutes overlap against many teams. Between that and injuries, think it would be fine. But if have to trade Coby - would still seriously consider of could move Pat and Vuc as well. Pat-Vuc-Coby for Beal and 29. Do it AKME.
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
IDK, but he may be referring back to one of my earlier posts that was based on the fact that I agree that Beal is a negative-value deal that could be a source of up to 3 (albeit bad) 1sts from PHO to take it. My idea coupled that with the notion of since we're stuck with Beal for at least a season (he may be tradeable as an expiring), we could also monetize Coby for more picks, and then take all of those picks and go after a #1 option (perhaps coupled with Beal after the season as an expiring).
dougthonus wrote:sco wrote:dougthonus wrote:
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
IDK, but he may be referring back to one of my earlier posts that was based on the fact that I agree that Beal is a negative-value deal that could be a source of up to 3 (albeit bad) 1sts from PHO to take it. My idea coupled that with the notion of since we're stuck with Beal for at least a season (he may be tradeable as an expiring), we could also monetize Coby for more picks, and then take all of those picks and go after a #1 option (perhaps coupled with Beal after the season as an expiring).
No idea what Phoenix will do, but I'd sure as hell be looking for more than one first round pick at #29 for Coby White while taking on Beal's deal.
kodo wrote:dougthonus wrote:No idea what Phoenix will do, but I'd sure as hell be looking for more than one first round pick at #29 for Coby White while taking on Beal's deal.
Sane people wouldn't, but pretty good sources like Windhorst said Chicago & Phoenix were in real discussions of Beal ending up in Chicago. Beal exercising his NTC killed it, it wasn't the two teams. I guess it could have been something like Lavine -> Miami, Butler -> Phoenix, Beal to Chicago. Or maybe it was Vuc + PWill instead of Lavine.
But either way, AK was open to taking on the worst contract in the league, and I doubt a lot of picks were involved since he doesn't value them at all.
TheJordanRule wrote:Who is the ideal backcourt partner for Josh? I'm envisioning someone who is much faster, who plays lockdown defense at the PG position. Jrue Holiday may be the model for us. Great secondary playmaker, great defender, good shooter / scorer.
jordanwilliams6 wrote:TheJordanRule wrote:Who is the ideal backcourt partner for Josh? I'm envisioning someone who is much faster, who plays lockdown defense at the PG position. Jrue Holiday may be the model for us. Great secondary playmaker, great defender, good shooter / scorer.
Ironically a healthy Lonzo Ball.
dougthonus wrote:MGB8 wrote:Chi town wrote:
AK and the new NBA is played over the cap with trades.
I fully expect AK to go all in at this coming trade deadline using our expirings and picks to do another dumb Vuc like trade.
Bradley Beal. I like some, I d t think you need to trade Coby for him. - I think they can coexist, though Coby might be unhappy going back t coming off the bench - but can still ply both 30 minutes with 12 minutes overlap against many teams. Between that and injuries, think it would be fine. But if have to trade Coby - would still seriously consider of could move Pat and Vuc as well. Pat-Vuc-Coby for Beal and 29. Do it AKME.
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
MGB8 wrote:dougthonus wrote:MGB8 wrote:
Bradley Beal. I like some, I d t think you need to trade Coby for him. - I think they can coexist, though Coby might be unhappy going back t coming off the bench - but can still ply both 30 minutes with 12 minutes overlap against many teams. Between that and injuries, think it would be fine. But if have to trade Coby - would still seriously consider of could move Pat and Vuc as well. Pat-Vuc-Coby for Beal and 29. Do it AKME.
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
Neither sarcastic nor serious; made in the context of what AKME might do. Nor do I think it is terrible, for the following reasons:
1) IMO, it is likely that Beal’s production has dipped due to being the 3rd banana, rather than decline in ability- where Beal represents sort of the best case scenario for where Coby may end up. In particular, Beal is 5-10% better on his close range shots.
2) Beal has 2 years left on his massively over-paying deal - next year and year after, 53.7 and 57.1 million.
3) Thing is, Pat, by himself, is owed 54 million after next year - just over 3 following years - I.e., he is a huge negative contract. Meanwhile, Coby is expecting, and will get, a big pay raise - a risk given that he may walk for nothing or get significantly overpaid. I also doubt that Vuc is worth anything more than a TPE at his salary, and may even still have teams demanding an asset to take on even his expiring deal.
4) If #1 is correct and Beal is better than Coby, sort of best case version (I.e., contracts aside, a Beal for Coby swap would improve the Bulls), and AKME wants to compete now… getting an overpaid Beal for 2 years + a very late first for one asset (Coby) who isn’t as good a player, dropping one huge negative contract, and a net neutral contract …. isn’t bad. I mean, it isn’t great, but also not bad.
5) I think the LaVine thing was less about the contract and more personal. Also, Beal is better at ball handling / non-straight-line penetration and in the clutch / avoiding dumb TOs than LaVine. (Coby is also a better handler, at this point, but still has issues inside).
sco wrote:MGB8 wrote:dougthonus wrote:
Read this and am not sure if this is serious or not.
Bradley Beal is like worse, more expensive Zach LaVine. Phoenix would be tripping all over themselves to move Beal for an expiring deal, you don't need to throw anything in. Coby is worth more than #29 by himself, and Vuc + Pat + Carter + some other filler for Beal is a terrible trade.
Neither sarcastic nor serious; made in the context of what AKME might do. Nor do I think it is terrible, for the following reasons:
1) IMO, it is likely that Beal’s production has dipped due to being the 3rd banana, rather than decline in ability- where Beal represents sort of the best case scenario for where Coby may end up. In particular, Beal is 5-10% better on his close range shots.
2) Beal has 2 years left on his massively over-paying deal - next year and year after, 53.7 and 57.1 million.
3) Thing is, Pat, by himself, is owed 54 million after next year - just over 3 following years - I.e., he is a huge negative contract. Meanwhile, Coby is expecting, and will get, a big pay raise - a risk given that he may walk for nothing or get significantly overpaid. I also doubt that Vuc is worth anything more than a TPE at his salary, and may even still have teams demanding an asset to take on even his expiring deal.
4) If #1 is correct and Beal is better than Coby, sort of best case version (I.e., contracts aside, a Beal for Coby swap would improve the Bulls), and AKME wants to compete now… getting an overpaid Beal for 2 years + a very late first for one asset (Coby) who isn’t as good a player, dropping one huge negative contract, and a net neutral contract …. isn’t bad. I mean, it isn’t great, but also not bad.
5) I think the LaVine thing was less about the contract and more personal. Also, Beal is better at ball handling / non-straight-line penetration and in the clutch / avoiding dumb TOs than LaVine. (Coby is also a better handler, at this point, but still has issues inside).
I don't think we'd need to include Coby in trade for Beal...I think expirings are enough plus we should get more than 1 first back. Coby could be traded elsewhere for a couple 1sts.
