Lonzo Ball Thread (UPDATE: Bulls Offer Sato + 2nd Round picks)

[FreePaulZipser]

Yea that's my hope

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

The cost for the Bulls is really high because to get to that $20M we have to
1. Renounce Lauri
2. Renounce Theis
3. Buyout Sato
4. Buyout Thad

(Only doing 1-3 only gets us to about $17.5M in cap space figuring a cap of about $112.5M, which is what is currently projected for next year). That is, we basically are giving up 4 players and a bunch of money for 1 guy. Granted they're 4 mediocre players, but honestly so is Ball.

If AKME's heart is really set on Ball, they should have just given up whatever protected pick would have gotten it done so we could keep around Theis and Thad, and then also had the MLE to offer up over the summer. As it stands, we're burning through a whole lot of assets.

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

[sco]

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

The cost for the Bulls is really high because to get to that $20M we have to
1. Renounce Lauri
2. Renounce Theis
3. Buyout Sato
4. Buyout Thad

(Only doing 1-3 only gets us to about $17.5M in cap space figuring a cap of about $112.5M, which is what is currently projected for next year). That is, we basically are giving up 4 players and a bunch of money for 1 guy. Granted they're 4 mediocre players, but honestly so is Ball.

If AKME's heart is really set on Ball, they should have just given up whatever protected pick would have gotten it done so we could keep around Theis and Thad, and then also had the MLE to offer up over the summer. As it stands, we're burning through a whole lot of assets.

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

[MikeDC]

The cost for the Bulls is really high because to get to that $20M we have to
1. Renounce Lauri
2. Renounce Theis
3. Buyout Sato
4. Buyout Thad

(Only doing 1-3 only gets us to about $17.5M in cap space figuring a cap of about $112.5M, which is what is currently projected for next year). That is, we basically are giving up 4 players and a bunch of money for 1 guy. Granted they're 4 mediocre players, but honestly so is Ball.

If AKME's heart is really set on Ball, they should have just given up whatever protected pick would have gotten it done so we could keep around Theis and Thad, and then also had the MLE to offer up over the summer. As it stands, we're burning through a whole lot of assets.

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

There's not really a sequence, just that all 4 actions are required to generate the $20M in cap space (expected to be) necessary to sign Ball as a free agent.

This is based on the latest info I've seen, which suggests a $112M salary cap:

Read on Twitter

Here's the Bulls salary sheet if they try to get under the cap (which means they renounce the cap holds that would be associated with Lauri and Theis). Additionally, I'm assuming they do the buyout thing on Sato.

Player Age 2021-22
Nikola Vučević 30 $24,000,000
Zach LaVine 26 $19,500,000
Thaddeus Young 32 $14,190,000
Al-Farouq Aminu 30 $10,183,800
Pat Williams 19 $7,422,000
Coby White 21 $5,837,760
Troy Brown Jr. 21 $5,170,564

Team Totals $86,304,124

Players 7

Cap Holds $3,600,000 (4 @ ~ $900k each)
Dead Money $5,000,000 (Sato)
Total Obliged $94,904,124

Salary Cap $112,500,000

Cap Space $17,595,876

So this is what happens if you do 1-3 (Lauri, Theis, and Sato gone, but not Thad). You only get to about $17.6M. You need to go ahead and take the pre-arranged buyout option on Thad as well. This removes his $14M salary from the books, but adds his $6M buyout to the "dead money" category and adds another cap hold at about $900k, so the net increase in cap space is actually only a bit over $7M. That is, we'd be up to around $24.6M in cap space.

These numbers are all taken from published sources, so I don't see any way around them. Simply put, the Bulls have to get rid of those 4 guys to make a $20M+ offer to Ball (or anyone else).

[MikeDC]

If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

Sorry, I submitted before adding this.

The way to keep Theis and/or Thad is to not go under the salary cap to sign Ball. To sign him outright as a free agent, the Bulls have to get under the cap, which means renouncing their free agents (who have cap holds) and waiving their guys who have partial guarantees.

The alternatives are to stay over the cap and either
A) convince Ball to sign for the MLE
or
B) agree to a contract with Ball and convince the Pelicans to do a sign and trade

Both seem unlikely. If Ball is really worth $20M, he won't sign for the MLE, which is less than half of that.

People hypothesize lots of sign-and-trade deals, but they don't seem realistic to me. Fundamentally, the Pelicans problem is they're a tiny market and can't pay Ball after committing big money to Ingram, Adams, and Bledsoe. And they've already indicated they prefer Ball more than guys like Lauri. It makes no sense to suggest paying Lauri roughly what they would have to pay Ball. If they had that kind of money, they'd just pay Ball.

This is why getting the Ball in the hand during the season was worth a pick. Trading them say, Lauri or Sato and a protected 1st would give them a lot of financial relief while still preserving the Bulls' ability to keep/re-sign the guys we wanted to keep. At this point, we can't really do that anymore, because any S&T would require them to take money back, and/or require us to get under the cap.

[bad knees]

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

There's not really a sequence, just that all 4 actions are required to generate the $20M in cap space (expected to be) necessary to sign Ball as a free agent.

This is based on the latest info I've seen, which suggests a $112M salary cap:

Read on Twitter

Here's the Bulls salary sheet if they try to get under the cap (which means they renounce the cap holds that would be associated with Lauri and Theis). Additionally, I'm assuming they do the buyout thing on Sato.

Player Age 2021-22
Nikola Vučević 30 $24,000,000
Zach LaVine 26 $19,500,000
Thaddeus Young 32 $14,190,000
Al-Farouq Aminu 30 $10,183,800
Pat Williams 19 $7,422,000
Coby White 21 $5,837,760
Troy Brown Jr. 21 $5,170,564

Team Totals $86,304,124

Players 7

Cap Holds $3,600,000 (4 @ ~ $900k each)
Dead Money $5,000,000 (Sato)
Total Obliged $94,904,124

Salary Cap $112,500,000

Cap Space $17,595,876

So this is what happens if you do 1-3 (Lauri, Theis, and Sato gone, but not Thad). You only get to about $17.6M. You need to go ahead and take the pre-arranged buyout option on Thad as well. This removes his $14M salary from the books, but adds his $6M buyout to the "dead money" category and adds another cap hold at about $900k, so the net increase in cap space is actually only a bit over $7M. That is, we'd be up to around $24.6M in cap space.

These numbers are all taken from published sources, so I don't see any way around them. Simply put, the Bulls have to get rid of those 4 guys to make a $20M+ offer to Ball (or anyone else).

Mike, you are forgetting about two options for shedding salary: reasonable trades and the stretch provision. For example, it is reasonable to project, given Sato's play, his salary and the available cap space this summer, that the Bulls should be able to trade him for cap space straight up. That eliminates $5 M of "dead money" from your calculation of the Bulls' cap. Also, the Bulls could stretch and waive Aminu and Brown. That means that we divide their total salary by 3, and then add back two cap holds, to determine how much the Bulls save. My calculations say that that number is $8.4 M. So by trading Sato and stretch/waiving Aminu and Brown, the Bulls could create an additional $13.4 M in cap space.

Thus if the Bulls renounce Lauri, trade Sato, and stretch/waive Aminu and Brown, they will have $31 M in cap space (your 17.6 M plus my 13.4 M). That is enough to retain Theis' cap hold of $9.5 M and still offer Lonzo $21.5 M. Plus keep Lavine, Vuc, Young, Williams and White.

If they sign Lonzo and re-sign Theis, you are looking at:

Lonzo
Lavine, White
Williams
Theis, Thad
Vuc

With the relevant exceptions to fill in the rest of the lineup.

[CobyWhite0]

Yea that's my hope

You guys need to give up on the illusion that Lauri gets us anything via S&T.

I still like Ball as a 3-D player to plug in with Zach and Vuc, but I think he's gonna be priced above our ability to find cap space (without gutting our roster, which IMO, hurts more than it helps). I agree he's probably in the Lauri tier of players who are in the 20th-30th best starters at their position, with upside to get to 15th or so. That $20M price tag is high for that level, IMO, but it is entirely likely this offseason due to supply and demand.

We have a bit of leverage with lauri because he is a rfa. So if San Antonio really wants lauri to avoid us matching their offer sheet, they may be persuaded to do a sign and trade If we can convince demar to come here.

We can also clear the space to sign derozan possibly back end increase his salary so we can sign him slightly below the apron so we can have access to our exceptions then bring theis back with our mle and bring temple back with our Bae. It's possible.

That won't work. In order to clear cap space, you have to renounce the MLE and BAE, or they count against the cap.

[CobyWhite0]

Thus if the Bulls renounce Lauri, trade Sato, and stretch/waive Aminu and Brown, they will have $31 M in cap space (your 17.6 M plus my 13.4 M). That is enough to retain Theis' cap hold of $9.5 M and still offer Lonzo $21.5 M. Plus keep Lavine, Vuc, Young, Williams and White.

If they sign Lonzo and re-sign Theis, you are looking at:

Lonzo
Lavine, White
Williams
Theis, Thad
Vuc

With the relevant exceptions to fill in the rest of the lineup.

The only exception after you clear cap space would be the Room MLE ($4,767,000 this season), then you would have to fill the rest of the roster with minimum salary players.

[MikeDC]

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

There's not really a sequence, just that all 4 actions are required to generate the $20M in cap space (expected to be) necessary to sign Ball as a free agent.

This is based on the latest info I've seen, which suggests a $112M salary cap:

Read on Twitter

Here's the Bulls salary sheet if they try to get under the cap (which means they renounce the cap holds that would be associated with Lauri and Theis). Additionally, I'm assuming they do the buyout thing on Sato.

Player Age 2021-22
Nikola Vučević 30 $24,000,000
Zach LaVine 26 $19,500,000
Thaddeus Young 32 $14,190,000
Al-Farouq Aminu 30 $10,183,800
Pat Williams 19 $7,422,000
Coby White 21 $5,837,760
Troy Brown Jr. 21 $5,170,564

Team Totals $86,304,124

Players 7

Cap Holds $3,600,000 (4 @ ~ $900k each)
Dead Money $5,000,000 (Sato)
Total Obliged $94,904,124

Salary Cap $112,500,000

Cap Space $17,595,876

So this is what happens if you do 1-3 (Lauri, Theis, and Sato gone, but not Thad). You only get to about $17.6M. You need to go ahead and take the pre-arranged buyout option on Thad as well. This removes his $14M salary from the books, but adds his $6M buyout to the "dead money" category and adds another cap hold at about $900k, so the net increase in cap space is actually only a bit over $7M. That is, we'd be up to around $24.6M in cap space.

These numbers are all taken from published sources, so I don't see any way around them. Simply put, the Bulls have to get rid of those 4 guys to make a $20M+ offer to Ball (or anyone else).

Mike, you are forgetting about two options for shedding salary: reasonable trades and the stretch provision. For example, it is reasonable to project, given Sato's play, his salary and the available cap space this summer, that the Bulls should be able to trade him for cap space straight up. That eliminates $5 M of "dead money" from your calculation of the Bulls' cap. Also, the Bulls could stretch and waive Aminu and Brown. That means that we divide their total salary by 3, and then add back two cap holds, to determine how much the Bulls save. My calculations say that that number is $8.4 M. So by trading Sato and stretch/waiving Aminu and Brown, the Bulls could create an additional $13.4 M in cap space.

Thus if the Bulls renounce Lauri, trade Sato, and stretch/waive Aminu and Brown, they will have $31 M in cap space (your 17.6 M plus my 13.4 M). That is enough to retain Theis' cap hold of $9.5 M and still offer Lonzo $21.5 M. Plus keep Lavine, Vuc, Young, Williams and White.

If they sign Lonzo and re-sign Theis, you are looking at:

Lonzo
Lavine, White
Williams
Theis, Thad
Vuc

With the relevant exceptions to fill in the rest of the lineup.

I'm not forgetting those options, I just don't think they're clear cut. The Sato option relies on the kindness of others. You can't just assume some team wants Sato at $10M/yr. I say it's reasonable that you have to give up a pick, to do that. Especially because any team doing that knows the Bulls are over a barrel if they don't. Why should some team take on Sato for $10M if they can just sign him as a FA for much less after the Bulls waive him. They wouldn't.

I don't see any logic to waiving Brown, a somewhat promising player they just traded for who's only 21. I mean, technically they could, but it'd be a Bad GM Summit worthy move. They're better off just keeping him.

That leaves us with waiving and stretching Aminu, which you are correct, it seems feasible and would net them an additional $5.8M in cap space. However, that only gets them to $23.3M. So they can keep Thad, but there's no way they get Theis back too.

Also, they won't have "relevant exceptions" in either case, they will just have one "Room" exception of about $5M. Which doesn't get you much of a player.

So the best case scenario is
Lonzo
Zach, White
Williams, Brown
Thad
Vuc
+ Room Exception ~ $5M
+ ... basically minimum salary guys.

This is not a very talented team, it's shallow as hell, not particularly young, and two of our three best players pretty clearly have trouble playing together.

What I'm saying is, that doesn't look like a very well thought out plan for a team in general, and it seems like a particularly costly bet on Lonzo Ball.

[MikeDC]

I'd add a bit onto this and say that if we manage to shed the additional $5M of Sato dead money via trade (suppose we trade Sato + 2nds... very Bullsian to give those us), the remaining $8.3M might be enough to get Theis back. So you add him in and I think my basic conclusion still stands. Instead of a team that's got 2 guys (Thad and Vuc) who are difficult to play together, you've got 3 guys (Thad, Theis, and Vuc) who are difficult to play together. You have basically no proven depth on the wings, and Ball is still a weird player who I'm not sure is actually good or who fits with what we need.

[CobyWhite0]

There's no need to have $5 million in dead Sato money. We can just waive and stretch him before Aug 1, and he'd only count $1.666666 million against our cap next summer. Plus the next 2 summers, of course.

Or if you really want that $1.666666 million in cap space each of the next 3 summers, trade him before Aug 1 to one of three teams with a $10 million+ Trade Exception - and send them $5 million in cash to cover his $5 million guaranteed salary for next season.

[bad knees]

There's not really a sequence, just that all 4 actions are required to generate the $20M in cap space (expected to be) necessary to sign Ball as a free agent.

This is based on the latest info I've seen, which suggests a $112M salary cap:

Read on Twitter

Here's the Bulls salary sheet if they try to get under the cap (which means they renounce the cap holds that would be associated with Lauri and Theis). Additionally, I'm assuming they do the buyout thing on Sato.




So this is what happens if you do 1-3 (Lauri, Theis, and Sato gone, but not Thad). You only get to about $17.6M. You need to go ahead and take the pre-arranged buyout option on Thad as well. This removes his $14M salary from the books, but adds his $6M buyout to the "dead money" category and adds another cap hold at about $900k, so the net increase in cap space is actually only a bit over $7M. That is, we'd be up to around $24.6M in cap space.

These numbers are all taken from published sources, so I don't see any way around them. Simply put, the Bulls have to get rid of those 4 guys to make a $20M+ offer to Ball (or anyone else).

Mike, you are forgetting about two options for shedding salary: reasonable trades and the stretch provision. For example, it is reasonable to project, given Sato's play, his salary and the available cap space this summer, that the Bulls should be able to trade him for cap space straight up. That eliminates $5 M of "dead money" from your calculation of the Bulls' cap. Also, the Bulls could stretch and waive Aminu and Brown. That means that we divide their total salary by 3, and then add back two cap holds, to determine how much the Bulls save. My calculations say that that number is $8.4 M. So by trading Sato and stretch/waiving Aminu and Brown, the Bulls could create an additional $13.4 M in cap space.

Thus if the Bulls renounce Lauri, trade Sato, and stretch/waive Aminu and Brown, they will have $31 M in cap space (your 17.6 M plus my 13.4 M). That is enough to retain Theis' cap hold of $9.5 M and still offer Lonzo $21.5 M. Plus keep Lavine, Vuc, Young, Williams and White.

If they sign Lonzo and re-sign Theis, you are looking at:

Lonzo
Lavine, White
Williams
Theis, Thad
Vuc

With the relevant exceptions to fill in the rest of the lineup.

I'm not forgetting those options, I just don't think they're clear cut. The Sato option relies on the kindness of others. You can't just assume some team wants Sato at $10M/yr. I say it's reasonable that you have to give up a pick, to do that. Especially because any team doing that knows the Bulls are over a barrel if they don't. Why should some team take on Sato for $10M if they can just sign him as a FA for much less after the Bulls waive him. They wouldn't.

I don't see any logic to waiving Brown, a somewhat promising player they just traded for who's only 21. I mean, technically they could, but it'd be a Bad GM Summit worthy move. They're better off just keeping him.

That leaves us with waiving and stretching Aminu, which you are correct, it seems feasible and would net them an additional $5.8M in cap space. However, that only gets them to $23.3M. So they can keep Thad, but there's no way they get Theis back too.

Also, they won't have "relevant exceptions" in either case, they will just have one "Room" exception of about $5M. Which doesn't get you much of a player.

So the best case scenario is
Lonzo
Zach, White
Williams, Brown
Thad
Vuc
+ Room Exception ~ $5M
+ ... basically minimum salary guys.

This is not a very talented team, it's shallow as hell, not particularly young, and two of our three best players pretty clearly have trouble playing together.

What I'm saying is, that doesn't look like a very well thought out plan for a team in general, and it seems like a particularly costly bet on Lonzo Ball.

Yeah, well thanks. I was responding to your claim that there is absolutely no way of getting around the fact that the Bulls would have to jettison Lauri, Theis, Sato and Thad in order to clear $20 M in cap space for Lonzo. It's not as cut and dried as you suggested. There are a lot of options available.

[FreePaulZipser]

The cost for the Bulls is really high because to get to that $20M we have to
1. Renounce Lauri
2. Renounce Theis
3. Buyout Sato
4. Buyout Thad

(Only doing 1-3 only gets us to about $17.5M in cap space figuring a cap of about $112.5M, which is what is currently projected for next year). That is, we basically are giving up 4 players and a bunch of money for 1 guy. Granted they're 4 mediocre players, but honestly so is Ball.

If AKME's heart is really set on Ball, they should have just given up whatever protected pick would have gotten it done so we could keep around Theis and Thad, and then also had the MLE to offer up over the summer. As it stands, we're burning through a whole lot of assets.

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

Because all you have to do to execute a sign and t. A even easier way would be to re-offer Sato and a 2nd which they would probably take this go around so they don't just lose him.

[MikeDC]

There's no need to have $5 million in dead Sato money. We can just waive and stretch him before Aug 1, and he'd only count $1.666666 million against our cap next summer. Plus the next 2 summers, of course.

Or if you really want that $1.666666 million in cap space each of the next 3 summers, trade him before Aug 1 to one of three teams with a $10 million+ Trade Exception - and send them $5 million in cash to cover his $5 million guaranteed salary for next season.

Maybe to some of this but not to others. His waive date is actually 6/30 rather than 8/1. After that his salary is fully guaranteed.

So we could waive and stretch him and gain another $3.4M in cap space. Maybe that's enough to keep Thad while generating enough cap space to sign Ball, but we still likely lose Theis.

The trade idea will not work however, because, 1) why do they do this favor for us and 2) as of July 1st, Sato will cost $10M, not $5M.

[MikeDC]

This is such a short sided and casual response. Only person they have to renounce is Lauri. If the Pels aren't going to match, then we work out a sign and trade.

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

Because all you have to do to execute a sign and t. A even easier way would be to re-offer Sato and a 2nd which they would probably take this go around so they don't just lose him.

Try and look at this from the Pelican's position. They already have a bunch of salary wrapped up in players they don't want. That's why they can't afford to pay Ball. If they can't afford to pay Ball, they also can't afford to pay Sato, who's a worse player who doesn't bring much to the table for them.

And if they can afford it (suppose they manage to unload Bledsoe), they'd just match the offer and keep Ball and tell us to go pound sand.

[FreePaulZipser]

Not sure I understand the sequencing and why items 2-4 aren't needed? Can you elaborate? If there's a way to keep Theis/Thad, I would like to know that.

Because all you have to do to execute a sign and t. A even easier way would be to re-offer Sato and a 2nd which they would probably take this go around so they don't just lose him.

Try and look at this from the Pelican's position. They already have a bunch of salary wrapped up in players they don't want. That's why they can't afford to pay Ball. If they can't afford to pay Ball, they also can't afford to pay Sato, who's a worse player who doesn't bring much to the table for them.

And if they can afford it (suppose they manage to unload Bledsoe), they'd just match the offer and keep Ball and tell us to go pound sand.

Huh? They can afford Ball. They just don't think he is worth as much as he is going to get. Even if they couldn't afford Ball, Why couldn't they afford half of the salary? Sato only makes 10 mil.

[bad knees]

There's no need to have $5 million in dead Sato money. We can just waive and stretch him before Aug 1, and he'd only count $1.666666 million against our cap next summer. Plus the next 2 summers, of course.

Or if you really want that $1.666666 million in cap space each of the next 3 summers, trade him before Aug 1 to one of three teams with a $10 million+ Trade Exception - and send them $5 million in cash to cover his $5 million guaranteed salary for next season.

Maybe to some of this but not to others. His waive date is actually 6/30 rather than 8/1. After that his salary is fully guaranteed.

So we could waive and stretch him and gain another $3.4M in cap space. Maybe that's enough to keep Thad while generating enough cap space to sign Ball, but we still likely lose Theis.

The trade idea will not work however, because, 1) why do they do this favor for us and 2) as of July 1st, Sato will cost $10M, not $5M.

I'll let CobyWhite0 provide you with the link showing that the NBA has moved all of the relevant contract dates, including Sato's waive date, to be congruent with the revised draft/FA schedule for this summer. He provided it to me a few weeks ago; I believe it is in this thread if you care to look.

[MikeDC]

Because all you have to do to execute a sign and t. A even easier way would be to re-offer Sato and a 2nd which they would probably take this go around so they don't just lose him.

Try and look at this from the Pelican's position. They already have a bunch of salary wrapped up in players they don't want. That's why they can't afford to pay Ball. If they can't afford to pay Ball, they also can't afford to pay Sato, who's a worse player who doesn't bring much to the table for them.

And if they can afford it (suppose they manage to unload Bledsoe), they'd just match the offer and keep Ball and tell us to go pound sand.

Huh? They can afford Ball. They just don't think he is worth as much as he is going to get. Even if they couldn't afford Ball, Why couldn't they afford half of the salary? Sato only makes 10 mil.

I could afford to stop working if I were willing to eat nothing but Ramen for the rest of my life. But that's not a trade-off I'm willing to accept.

with that in mind, the Pels are a small market team and what they "can" afford is likely to be less than the salary cap. Likewise, if they don't want Ball, why would they want Sato, who's a much inferior player, at even half the price. Granted I'm not a Sato fan, but I don't think even his fans see him as more than a replacement level player. Why pay him $10M? I'd just go out and sign a guy I actually wanted.

To broaden the discussion to Ball as a player, does it not concern you a bit that the Pelicans don't think the guy is worth the price? I don't see how that's a selling point. Seems more like a point of concern that hey, maybe if his current team isn't willing to pay him, we shouldn't be so eager either.

Just in a general sense, I look at the Pelicans and think there's no better team for Lonzo Ball. Because they've got Ingram and Zion, Ball's limitations are largely mitigated. They don't mind that he can't get to rim or run PnR worth a damn because they've got two other guys who are really good at it. And I look at Ball and wonder just WTF is going through his head if he really has to hold his nose to go play ball with Zion Williamson.

Nothing about the situation there inspires a lot of confidence.

There's no need to have $5 million in dead Sato money. We can just waive and stretch him before Aug 1, and he'd only count $1.666666 million against our cap next summer. Plus the next 2 summers, of course.

Or if you really want that $1.666666 million in cap space each of the next 3 summers, trade him before Aug 1 to one of three teams with a $10 million+ Trade Exception - and send them $5 million in cash to cover his $5 million guaranteed salary for next season.

Maybe to some of this but not to others. His waive date is actually 6/30 rather than 8/1. After that his salary is fully guaranteed.

So we could waive and stretch him and gain another $3.4M in cap space. Maybe that's enough to keep Thad while generating enough cap space to sign Ball, but we still likely lose Theis.

The trade idea will not work however, because, 1) why do they do this favor for us and 2) as of July 1st, Sato will cost $10M, not $5M.

I'll let CobyWhite0 provide you with the link showing that the NBA has moved all of the relevant contract dates, including Sato's waive date, to be congruent with the revised draft/FA schedule for this summer. He provided it to me a few weeks ago; I believe it is in this thread if you care to look.

Thanks!

[MikeDC]

There's no need to have $5 million in dead Sato money. We can just waive and stretch him before Aug 1, and he'd only count $1.666666 million against our cap next summer. Plus the next 2 summers, of course.

Or if you really want that $1.666666 million in cap space each of the next 3 summers, trade him before Aug 1 to one of three teams with a $10 million+ Trade Exception - and send them $5 million in cash to cover his $5 million guaranteed salary for next season.

Maybe to some of this but not to others. His waive date is actually 6/30 rather than 8/1. After that his salary is fully guaranteed.

So we could waive and stretch him and gain another $3.4M in cap space. Maybe that's enough to keep Thad while generating enough cap space to sign Ball, but we still likely lose Theis.

The trade idea will not work however, because, 1) why do they do this favor for us and 2) as of July 1st, Sato will cost $10M, not $5M.

I'll let CobyWhite0 provide you with the link showing that the NBA has moved all of the relevant contract dates, including Sato's waive date, to be congruent with the revised draft/FA schedule for this summer. He provided it to me a few weeks ago; I believe it is in this thread if you care to look.

Actually, after thinking about this, I think moving the dates back doesn’t really matter. That is, what’s important is that Sato’s “guarantee by” date is the last day of the old season rather than the first day of the new season. So whether the last day of the old season is 6/30 or 8/1 doesn’t matter.

So the Bulls, if they keep him into the next season, are on the hook for all $10m, and so is any team that trades for him.

To trade him and have the receiving team then exercise the $5m buyout, the trade has to be made before the end of this season, under the 20/21 cap. Which substantially lowers the number of teams that could do it.

[CobyWhite0]

Maybe to some of this but not to others. His waive date is actually 6/30 rather than 8/1. After that his salary is fully guaranteed.

So we could waive and stretch him and gain another $3.4M in cap space. Maybe that's enough to keep Thad while generating enough cap space to sign Ball, but we still likely lose Theis.

The trade idea will not work however, because, 1) why do they do this favor for us and 2) as of July 1st, Sato will cost $10M, not $5M.

I'll let CobyWhite0 provide you with the link showing that the NBA has moved all of the relevant contract dates, including Sato's waive date, to be congruent with the revised draft/FA schedule for this summer. He provided it to me a few weeks ago; I believe it is in this thread if you care to look.

Actually, after thinking about this, I think moving the dates back doesn’t really matter. That is, what’s important is that Sato’s “guarantee by” date is the last day of the old season rather than the first day of the new season. So whether the last day of the old season is 6/30 or 8/1 doesn’t matter.

So the Bulls, if they keep him into the next season, are on the hook for all $10m, and so is any team that trades for him.

To trade him and have the receiving team then exercise the $5m buyout, the trade has to be made before the end of this season, under the 20/21 cap. Which substantially lowers the number of teams that could do it.

Yeah it's not the exact date that matters, it's the fact that it has to be done this season. Which limits you to the 3 teams that have Trade Exceptions of over $10 million if you're looking to clear cap space.

[dougthonus]

There’s threads for Ball so I’ll make it quick. I don’t care what the Pels did. He’s a point guard. Even if I did, it’s not a red flag because he’ll be playing with Lavine who will have the ball a lot anyway. He’s got great size, defense, and would be a vision/passing upgrade. He’s shown he has an excellent attitude and strong work ethic to improve.

And he fits the timeline.

The issue to me is not whether he’s a fit. He is. The issue is that we still probably won’t get him.

Moving this over to the Lonzo thread.

The issue to you is he is not a fit because of what the Pels did is fine. The issue to me that he was awful when playing as a traditional PG and has found success in a SG role means he's unlikely to solve our problem of having a PG.

I'm not really sure that we really need a PG with Zach/Vuc in here as much though as we need good 3/D players. Maybe one other guy with a good handle that can create his own shot would be valuable, but Vuc/Zach can run enough offense. I think Lonzo might be fine, but I don't think we're great when Coby has a good game because he's a good PG in those good games. We're good in those games because we have a quality 3rd option to generate their own shots and knock down threes and maybe Lonzo could do that, but I don't trust him all that much in that role either.

Either way, with all that said, I'll go back to my other statement of Lonzo/Schroeder are probably the best options that exist, so what else can you do. I hate everything we've done so far with this new FO and the more I think about it the more I hate it, but oh well, such is life.