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The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1241 » by cjbulls » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:57 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:I was #1 in the trade down camp! I'm just saying there is no guarantees there WAS any good trade down options. Obviously AK didn't think so. The detroit trade down WASN'T an option for us.


Let's say you favored player X at #4. You had to have someone at the top of your board. If you knew that player X would go at #4 and you couldn't get him after trading down, then would you still trade down? If the answer is no, then you weren't really in the trade down camp. If the answer is yes, then the Bulls very likely had an opportunity to trade down and declined.

Most of the time you trade down you don't get the same player. You trade down not because you will get the same guy later, but because you think you get more total value.


Actually I think the bolded is incorrect, especially for top picks. See trae young, tatum trades.


“ On "The Woj Pod," Schlenk said the Hawks felt they'd be happy with "five or six" prospects from the draft. “So we felt like going back a couple spots we were still gonna get a player we really liked. One of the things that we had said all along is that it's gonna take another first-round pick," he said.

"Not a lot of people know this: if we would've stayed at three we would've taken Luka. We had worked with his agent and he had did a physical for us that morning in New York. I was on the phone with Bill Duffy, his agent, telling him our press conference was gonna be Monday and Bill was ecstatic because Phoenix was gonna be there Friday and he had [DeAndre] Ayton so he was going to be able to do both press conferences.

"But then Dallas came in an hour or so before the draft. I had told them all along that it would take another lottery pick for us to slide back. That's when the conversations got started.”

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/mavericks/2019/02/19/atlanta-gm-explains-why-hawks-traded-luka-doncic-for-trae-young-one-thing-fans-don-t-know-about-the-deal/
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1242 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:01 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:I'm not sure what you're actually arguing for Doug, because it seems that this is exactly the case. It looks like Karnisovas valued Williams quite a bit more than the guys behind him. Your valuations of the prospects are clearly nowhere near in line with what the front office's were. None of ours were.

In fact it seems like the teams that wanted Williams were really trying to keep it on the DL and his stock only started rising so late because they were playing their cards tight. Had the news leaked a few weeks before, nobody here would probably be questioning the pick because they'd have gotten used to the idea. If he'd picked someone like Haliburton or Avdija, nobody would be questioning it, just because of the online draft nerd hype that has infested everyone's minds here the last several months.

Instead, it's looking like Williams was clearly the more highly regarded prospect within actual NBA front offices and the draft nerds had no idea.


I'm not sure that it is true among a bunch of FOs, it is true for us and Detroit, not sure anyone else felt similarly. That is my point though, we shouldn't have valued him above all other prospects in my opinion (which of course could end up hilariously wrong, as I'll never pretend me watching youtube clips takes the place of actual scouting).
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1243 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:13 pm

PaKii94 wrote:I agree with both of your posts and as you know my guy was vassell so I'd definitely trade down if it was available.


Yes, would you have traded down if you knew you wouldn't get Vassell?

The only way it would work between the two is if we made it clear PWill is a hostage situation. You (detroit) have to trade up to our pick to get him otherwise we are taking him. In that case the end goal is to get the more assets.


Yes, this is exactly how it would work, exactly what the goal was, and exactly what I would do.

To add to that, it wasn't just AK who had inflated value of PWill. The rumor is multiple teams were trying to trade up for him. If so, then I trust NBA FOs more than draft twitter.


I have not heard of any teams outside of Detroit. Who were the other teams?

Either way, it may turn out to be brilliant that AK stuck with his guns. It isn't what I would have done, and I think it was a mistake to think any guy in this position was worth more than two.

That said, its also possible Detroit wouldn't have traded with us even in this hostage situation because they liked Williams, but not enough to give up #16, and their attempts to trade up were with lesser assets like 2nd rounders or Derrick Rose.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1244 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:51 pm

dougthonus wrote:I'm not sure that it is true among a bunch of FOs, it is true for us and Detroit, not sure anyone else felt similarly. That is my point though, we shouldn't have valued him above all other prospects in my opinion (which of course could end up hilariously wrong, as I'll never pretend me watching youtube clips takes the place of actual scouting).

He was heavily linked to the Spurs.

This was like the Westbrook pick all over again. People thought him and Jerryd Bayless were going to go in each other's spots. Deni Avdija is basically the Bayless of this draft.

Troy Weaver was also the guy that pushed Presti to pick Westbrook.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1245 » by JimmyButler21 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:59 pm

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1246 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:03 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I'm not sure that it is true among a bunch of FOs, it is true for us and Detroit, not sure anyone else felt similarly. That is my point though, we shouldn't have valued him above all other prospects in my opinion (which of course could end up hilariously wrong, as I'll never pretend me watching youtube clips takes the place of actual scouting).

He was heavily linked to the Spurs.

This was like the Westbrook pick all over again. People thought him and Jerryd Bayless were going to go in each other's spots. Deni Avdija is basically the Bayless of this draft.

Troy Weaver was also the guy that pushed Presti to pick Westbrook.


There something saying the Spurs wanted to trade up for him? Because it makes sense he was heavily linked to the Spurs at #11 given people thought he would be there.

-- edit, nevermind answered my own question

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/report-spurs-aiming-to-move-up-in-nba-draft-to-select-patrick-williams

The San Antonio Spurs are reportedly one of many teams looking to trade up in the 2020 NBA Draft to select Florida State's Patrick Williams according to Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer.


Want to talk about a prospect who has boosted his draft stock tons recently? Patrick Williams.

The Florida State frosh has boomed on draft boards recently and several lottery teams are intrigued. Cavs and Spurs amongst his recent workouts.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1247 » by cjbulls » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:05 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
dougthonus wrote:I'm not sure that it is true among a bunch of FOs, it is true for us and Detroit, not sure anyone else felt similarly. That is my point though, we shouldn't have valued him above all other prospects in my opinion (which of course could end up hilariously wrong, as I'll never pretend me watching youtube clips takes the place of actual scouting).

He was heavily linked to the Spurs.

This was like the Westbrook pick all over again. People thought him and Jerryd Bayless were going to go in each other's spots. Deni Avdija is basically the Bayless of this draft.

Troy Weaver was also the guy that pushed Presti to pick Westbrook.


He was mocked there by those internet nerds, like Deni to the Bulls. I could not find anything special other than they worked him out.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1248 » by PhilLeotardo » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:06 pm

Indomitable wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
chefo wrote:Then again, most of us have kind of forgotten, but the reason we went all-in on Dougie was because he kicked butt on the USA select team and everybody present (including Thibs) thought him some combo of Korver with a post game.

He was already drafted then. And literally nobody here knows how he looked in that setting.

This guy is the complete opposite of Doug. Barely any college resume to speak of but apparently wowing people in workouts. Doug was nothing but gaudy college numbers.

I hated the Doug pick.


I actually didn’t. I liked the gamble personally. McDermott, if he was brought along well, I viewed as having potentially higher upside than both Harris or Nurkic

The environment he was brought into was rapidly becoming volatile & no one besides JB was improving/evolving. Guys were stagnating left & right. A good deal of this had to do with Thibs being overrated & quickly becoming a dinosaur/walking disaster, but in general it was just a really poor environment for a rookie to be brought into (and has been until like a few months ago lmao)

I realize I’m making excuses for DMD, & in actuality, it probably was much wiser to just to go with 2 picks instead of one in such an intriguing & deep draft, but I can remember thinking “wow this kid is quite a bit faster/more athletic than he’s ever been given credit for. If he could just shore up his timing, he could be a major player”, but honestly, Thibs sucked at that point, and his offensive schemes went from bad, to downright non existent, and DMD really suffered because of it

The ironic thing is that, at present moment, DMD & Harris’s respective stocks may be about equal lol
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1249 » by mtron32 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:20 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:I was #1 in the trade down camp! I'm just saying there is no guarantees there WAS any good trade down options. Obviously AK didn't think so. The detroit trade down WASN'T an option for us.


Let's say you favored player X at #4. You had to have someone at the top of your board. If you knew that player X would go at #4 and you couldn't get him after trading down, then would you still trade down? If the answer is no, then you weren't really in the trade down camp. If the answer is yes, then the Bulls very likely had an opportunity to trade down and declined.

Most of the time you trade down you don't get the same player. You trade down not because you will get the same guy later, but because you think you get more total value.


Actually I think the bolded is incorrect, especially for top picks. See trae young, tatum trades.


We've never been the Kings in that scenario, like if we had traded Lauri and Zach to move up in that draft and took Bagley, the collective Bulls nation would be sick to this day. I don't remember the McDermott draft, I wasn't watching them that closely at the time.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1250 » by PhilLeotardo » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:21 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:Also, McDermott had his development destroyed on those Thibs teams, which weren’t very good developmental systems, and were in the process of crashing & burning. He could’ve had a better first few years of Nba play had he been drafted to a team that took their time to develop guys

We’ve actually seen him become a solid player in Ind. He had it in him to be better & is more athletic than he’s given credit for, but that team he was drafted to was coming apart at the seams/becoming toxic very rapidly

Jimmy Butler and Derrick Rose sure had no problems developing in that system.

Doug was just a trash prospect. Even now in Indiana he is trash. Still doing absolutely jack crap except shooting 3s.


Lmao. Derrick Rose had ONE great season under TT. Seriously. one. Great. Season. That was literally it. Had his little injury or whatever, sat on the sidelines for a decade, came back, and looked absolutely pedestrian. One great season lol

TTs developmental “system” was the drizzling ****. Beside Rose’s lone great season, and Butler, he didn’t develop a single rookie. And Butler wasn’t even with him for that long, this explosion into elite player happened after TT. TTs tenure in Minnesota was clown shoes galore, everyone regressed under him. They made the post season because Jimmy Butler could drag a team full of mop buckets to the to the POs, but their offense & defense were pedestrian-to-downright crap, and all the young guys took hits under his watch

Also, DMD absolutely was not a “trash” prospect. He was taken too high, but as we’ve seen in Indy, he had it in him to be a good player, and could’ve been better, had he been drafted to a team that actually called offensive sets, and didn’t have a coach who went to take a dump every time the team was on offense
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1251 » by Susan » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:31 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:Also, McDermott had his development destroyed on those Thibs teams, which weren’t very good developmental systems, and were in the process of crashing & burning. He could’ve had a better first few years of Nba play had he been drafted to a team that took their time to develop guys

We’ve actually seen him become a solid player in Ind. He had it in him to be better & is more athletic than he’s given credit for, but that team he was drafted to was coming apart at the seams/becoming toxic very rapidly


lmao he was here for one just year with Thibs and Jimmy developed under Thibs. Did Thibs set his career back 7 years? :lol: :lol: :lol:

That team was contending while playing two rookies, what the heck do you expect?
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1252 » by thedarkstark » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:39 pm

dougthonus wrote:
There something saying the Spurs wanted to trade up for him? Because it makes sense he was heavily linked to the Spurs at #11 given people thought he would be there.

-- edit, nevermind answered my own question

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/report-spurs-aiming-to-move-up-in-nba-draft-to-select-patrick-williams

The San Antonio Spurs are reportedly one of many teams looking to trade up in the 2020 NBA Draft to select Florida State's Patrick Williams according to Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer.


Want to talk about a prospect who has boosted his draft stock tons recently? Patrick Williams.

The Florida State frosh has boomed on draft boards recently and several lottery teams are intrigued. Cavs and Spurs amongst his recent workouts.


There you go, even if they Bulls had passed on him at #4, he still probably doesn't make it to Detroit at 7, Cleveland grabs him at 5.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1253 » by Leslie Forman » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:40 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:Also, DMD absolutely was not a “trash” prospect. He was taken too high, but as we’ve seen in Indy, he had it in him to be a good player, and could’ve been better, had he been drafted to a team that actually called offensive sets, and didn’t have a coach who went to take a dump every time the team was on offense

I called Doug McDermott and his .2 steals/.1 blocks lazy ass garbage before he ever played a pro game and I was right on every single part of his game. His shot creation? Garbage. Playmaking? Garbage. IQ? Garbage. Motor? Garbage. Athleticism? Garbage. Shooting threes? Pretty good!

He's still garbage at everything except shooting. Everything. "Good player" lol the man might as well have been my dead grandmother out there in the playoffs.

He was maybe the most predictable bust I've ever seen in my life. I've gotten plenty of draft calls wrong and would never be confident enough to put money on calling a bust, except on that one. No player has ever screamed obvious bust to me so much in my entire basketball watching life.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1254 » by Butler4thewin » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:40 pm

p will has me excited i cant shake the feeling the kid is going to be a atar
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1255 » by dougthonus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:56 pm

thedarkstark wrote:There you go, even if they Bulls had passed on him at #4, he still probably doesn't make it to Detroit at 7, Cleveland grabs him at 5.


Let's not get too crazy, I could probably make a quick google search and have a relatively unknown person say that the Cavs wanted any one of 10 guys. A tweet that said the Cavs were intrigued doesn't mean he was their man necessarily.

At any rate, it is at least two teams there was a rumor that wanted to move up for him.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1256 » by cjbulls » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:57 pm

thedarkstark wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
There something saying the Spurs wanted to trade up for him? Because it makes sense he was heavily linked to the Spurs at #11 given people thought he would be there.

-- edit, nevermind answered my own question

https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/report-spurs-aiming-to-move-up-in-nba-draft-to-select-patrick-williams

The San Antonio Spurs are reportedly one of many teams looking to trade up in the 2020 NBA Draft to select Florida State's Patrick Williams according to Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer.


Want to talk about a prospect who has boosted his draft stock tons recently? Patrick Williams.

The Florida State frosh has boomed on draft boards recently and several lottery teams are intrigued. Cavs and Spurs amongst his recent workouts.


There you go, even if they Bulls had passed on him at #4, he still probably doesn't make it to Detroit at 7, Cleveland grabs him at 5.


A tweet from two weeks before the draft saying the Cavs used one of their 10 workouts on him means he probably would have gone 5? That’s quite a leap.

I think it is only safe to say there’s a better than 50% chance Detroit takes him at 7. Everyone already agreed about that though.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1257 » by PhilLeotardo » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:20 am

cjbulls wrote:
PhilLeotardo wrote:Also, McDermott had his development destroyed on those Thibs teams, which weren’t very good developmental systems, and were in the process of crashing & burning. He could’ve had a better first few years of Nba play had he been drafted to a team that took their time to develop guys

We’ve actually seen him become a solid player in Ind. He had it in him to be better & is more athletic than he’s given credit for, but that team he was drafted to was coming apart at the seams/becoming toxic very rapidly


Both Thibs and Skiles had that crash and burn system. It really worked well with some guys and really failed with others. I still don’t know if it was right or wrong.


Not only was it wrong, but it was downright demeaning (especially in TTs case; my word, what an unpleasant individual) to grown men who command more money than their coaches, to be spoken to in that manner

Neither TT nor Skiles were ever great coaches. Skiles was good, and TT had two solid years where he was very good, before people began to properly gameplan for his embarrassingly telegraphed schemes & everyone (peers/players/superiors/whomever just tuned him out)

No rookies/young guys besides Butler ever developed under TTs watch. Rose had one great season, and then nothing to write home about after that

TTs tenure in Minneapolis was one of the most batsh*t insane transpirations that I have ever bore witness to as an NBA fan. Go talk to literally every single Wolves fan, they still have PTSD from the toxic Thibs meltdown experiment. He singlehandedly set that team back years. The moves he made to bring in Teague & the rest of those older guys that couldn’t shoot the ball to save their lives & were way past it, were utterly perplexing. I followed his years there very closely being a Bulls fan, and it honestly seemed as if he was constructing the team specifically to fail

Any armchair GM could clearly see that the team needed shooters first & foremost in order to space the floor for Wiggins, who was having trouble finding space & wasn’t a good shooter himself, but TT went the completely opposite route, and in doing so, cut KATs/Wiggins’s legs out from under them. He didn’t give those teams a prayer to succeed, minus bringing in Butler, which obviously didn’t last long

Not only was his offense laughably atrocious (you could seriously probably find many HS teams that call more coherent offensive sets than this goof did), but his defensive schemes were downright awful as well. The league had caught onto them a few years prior, they were ancient news & simply didn’t work anymore, but this nutcase just would not budge. He kept spamming the same telegraphed nonsense ad nauseum

What compounded all of the above, was the downright despicable way in which he spoke to the people around him. He was an insufferable pr!ck in Chicago with his screaming at players on the court, but he took it to a new level In Minneapolis. His screaming, especially at the younger guys, was abusive to where it was really hard to watch as an onlooker. Fans were afraid to approach him & looked visibly nervous if they had seats near his bench. It was honestly disturbing, the guy clearly has some major issues & needs help. No one would be shocked to see this guy get his penguin nose smashed in, I’m actually surprised that he hasn’t had any (reported) physical confrontations with anyone yet

I hope for Knicks fans’ sake that he’s changed his ways, because he really does love the game of basketball, but the man is a volatile lunatic, and you simply cannot speak to people in that manner within the confines of a professional work environment (or ANY environment). Especially some crusty old baby boomer white guy, furiously *screaming* at young black men at the top of his lungs like a slave driver, it is just horrible to watch, and I can’t imagine what it’s like for players to have to endure that. He messed KAT up big time, who is a pretty timid dude by nature. There’s a reason that the only team that was willing to employ TT as their HC are the laughing stock of the NBA

It’s hardly a surprise that, in a league wide players’ poll asking them which coaches they’d least prefer to play under, TT & Jim g0damn Boilan came in dead last by a landslide. Surprise surprise, two of the three coaches that the Chicago Bulls employed over the past decade, hahaha. Players first!
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1258 » by fleet » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:21 am

PaKii94 wrote:
Evil_Headband wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Well we were taking Williams. If we were willing to trade down it doesn't mean we won't take Williams, it means we are willing to take someone else for enough compensation. So the question is do we feel Williams is worth more than the other two guys we could have had. AK says no. Most other people say yes. Most other people say Williams was not even the right guy to take at #4.


I suspect no matter which player was selected at 4, "most people" would have preferred to trade down and "most people" would have preferred they take someone else.

Of course, that doesn't make the answers right or wrong, just something that I think is interesting to consider.



I was #1 in the trade down camp! I'm just saying there is no guarantees there WAS any good trade down options. Obviously AK didn't think so. The detroit trade down WASN'T an option for us.

The great thing about Detroit trading up to 3 or 4, is that after they trade up, they would then have to trade down. Because you’re supposed to trade down.
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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1259 » by The Force. » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:22 am

Butler4thewin wrote:p will has me excited i cant shake the feeling the kid is going to be a atar
I get being excited but I would lower my expectations significantly if I were you. The most likely outcome is that he becomes a solid 3D role player with good rim protection. That's nothing to sneeze at but obviously not a star.

Better to set expectations low and be pleasantly surprised.

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Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1260 » by fleet » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:24 am

Mindcrime wrote:Two weeks ago nobody was talking about Patrick and then all of a sudden nbadraft had us taking him at 4, i was like what, who the hell is this guy. Then the promise rumor. On draft day it appeared that the Spurs liked him a lot and suddenly, the Pistons were "trying desperately" to get into the top 3 to get him. Now we see the film of the predraft pick-up games and this kid looks legit.

lol, word gets out. The Spurs were sitting on this guy for months hoping nobody noticed him. :lol:

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