Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[DaMayor73]

I still haven't gotten an answer from people defending Rose's course of action why he can't play 10 to 15 minutes in a real game when he's been practicing with the team for months. The only difference between a game and a practice is that there are refs and the other team is wearing different jerseys. With this story, it seems like rationality is completely thrown out the window.

Are his teammates going to hammer him when he takes it to the hole? Are his teammates going to try to get in his head? Are his teammates going to do underhanded stuff to try to injury him? No? Then you know the answer. It is risk vs. reward.

[Rerisen]

To me, what makes the most sense, and is consistent with Derrick's own words, is that he is waiting for that final gear to come back, instead of trusting that it will come after he has played some games. That is consistent with his 110% fully confident talk, and also the idea of it mentally feeling right. He has to reestablish that trust with his body. And given how elite he is in that area, the idea that it would take longer to get back to full go doesn't feel off to me.

If its this, then he just needs to get over this, tbh, silly, way of thinking and play. Because frankly it's not realistic to come back at 110%.

On the other hand, if Derrick was covering up for a pre-determined decision to sit the year, wouldn't he be making up the exact same kind of cover stories, and stalling, that is necessary to protect such an unseemly an arbitrary decision? Not like he's going to come out and say, yeah we already decided when they discarded the bench mob and made no deadline moves, I'll just come back next year.

One day his hamstrings are on fire, then shortly after he is feeling good man and can do everything. Then he is going to come back when he can dunk in strike, then we have video of him dunking fine, and no return. A lot of stuff just stinks with this story. Or like things being thrown at the wall to get questions off.

[kyrv]

BB, that was my theory for the longest time, however in regards to ACL recovery, that is not how it works.

It's also not just two interviews with his brother, it's been well documented here and elsewhere how much control Reggie has over Derrick and Derrick's decision. Frankly I have never ever seen anything like it.

I think Derrick could be playing 10 minutes a game, for quite some time now, and that that would be helping his rehab. Not that there is always only one way to skin the cat.

Under your scenario though, and my old one, while true, it means that a couple of CPHS guys who couldn't pass the SAT's are taking it upon themselves to redo the current accepted and working ACL recovery model.

The mental aspect is a known issue that everybody has to fight through. Except Derrick. He's not fighting through it.

I mean it's possible it's mental for Derrick and Reggie is great with that because he just plain doesn't want Derrick to play this season.

It's not a normal recovery though, with implications for next season.

[kyrv]

I still haven't gotten an answer from people defending Rose's course of action why he can't play 10 to 15 minutes in a real game when he's been practicing with the team for months. The only difference between a game and a practice is that there are refs and the other team is wearing different jerseys. With this story, it seems like rationality is completely thrown out the window.

Are his teammates going to hammer him when he takes it to the hole? Are his teammates going to try to get in his head? Are his teammates going to do underhanded stuff to try to injury him? No? Then you know the answer. It is risk vs. reward.

So he's never going to play again against other teams?

[AirP.]

If Rose isn't feeling comfortable with his athleticism, he is going to be thinking, not reacting out there on the court, and that makes him a totally different player. And I'm not sure I want him trying to figure that out in the little time there is left this season.

Right, and one the easiest ways to not think about your injuries is to compete. Not getting into a game and the worry is gone, it's getting in the game and getting into a situation where you start letting your competitiveness take over where you go off your instincts.

Right now during this extended rehab because he's not comfortable with his knee, Derrick is retraining his instincts to compensate for his worries, I just hope this doesn't bleed over into his game and make him a lesser player then he could be.

[Red Larrivee]

So he's never going to play again against other teams?

Rose might as well have one of those red scrimmage jerseys they give quarterbacks on NFL teams right now. There's a clear difference in scrimmaging against teammates and being in a game setting vs. opponents who aren't going to take it easy on you and play as physical as possible.

He'll play again, but if he's not mentally ready, why toss him out against a team in the most physical setting the NBA has to offer?

[DaMayor73]

I still haven't gotten an answer from people defending Rose's course of action why he can't play 10 to 15 minutes in a real game when he's been practicing with the team for months. The only difference between a game and a practice is that there are refs and the other team is wearing different jerseys. With this story, it seems like rationality is completely thrown out the window.

Are his teammates going to hammer him when he takes it to the hole? Are his teammates going to try to get in his head? Are his teammates going to do underhanded stuff to try to injury him? No? Then you know the answer. It is risk vs. reward.

So he's never going to play again against other teams?

When he is both mentally and physically able to withstand the inherent risk? Absolutely.

[DaMayor73]

So he's never going to play again against other teams?

Rose might as well have one of those red scrimmage jerseys they give quarterbacks on NFL teams right now. There's a clear difference in scrimmaging against teammates and being in a game setting vs. opponents who aren't going to take it easy on you and play as physical as possible.

He'll play again, but if he's not mentally ready, why toss him out against a team in the most physical setting the NBA has to offer?

There you go making sense again.....risks vs. rewards. There are very few pros but a host of cons for him coming back now.

[ryannik09]

The Bucher post asked why Rose should "shorten" his recovery time to drag this team to the playoffs. That's not predicting anything, that's asking a legitimate question. The answer is that of course no one wants Rose to shorten his recovery time.

The only difference is between those who think he's at the stage where he can only continue to recover by playing in actual games, and those who think that there is plenty he can continue to do to rehab without playing yet.

I'm of the opinion that I don't really know which one is better for him, and I hope he listens to his doctors, but I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt because this was a pretty serious injury and I have no idea how he actually feels, physically, right now.

http://www.blogabull.com/2012/12/22/379 ... -bulls-org

A source continues to insist Derrick is not coming back any time soon, if at all, this season, no matter how often the Bulls or anyone else in Chicago starts to get breathless about him practicing or working out. I understand why the Bulls do it -- they have to keep hope alive and ticket sales humming.

I wonder who is source is, I am guessing it rhymes with Veggie Hose.

[kyrv]

The Bucher post asked why Rose should "shorten" his recovery time to drag this team to the playoffs. That's not predicting anything, that's asking a legitimate question. The answer is that of course no one wants Rose to shorten his recovery time.

The only difference is between those who think he's at the stage where he can only continue to recover by playing in actual games, and those who think that there is plenty he can continue to do to rehab without playing yet.

I'm of the opinion that I don't really know which one is better for him, and I hope he listens to his doctors, but I'll continue to give him the benefit of the doubt because this was a pretty serious injury and I have no idea how he actually feels, physically, right now.

http://www.blogabull.com/2012/12/22/379 ... -bulls-org

A source continues to insist Derrick is not coming back any time soon, if at all, this season, no matter how often the Bulls or anyone else in Chicago starts to get breathless about him practicing or working out. I understand why the Bulls do it -- they have to keep hope alive and ticket sales humming.

I wonder who is source is, I am guessing it rhymes with Veggie Hose.

This is my question, seems like a pretty big coincidence that he somehow predicted Derrick's "mental issues". Not sure Gibbs would buy it.

In fact they even refer to Bucher's' comments in the link title as 'bizarre'. We can't escape that word.

[Rerisen]

http://www.blogabull.com/2012/12/22/3795968/derrick-rose-return-ric-bucher-goes-bizarrely-full-blast-on-bulls-org

A source continues to insist Derrick is not coming back any time soon, if at all, this season, no matter how often the Bulls or anyone else in Chicago starts to get breathless about him practicing or working out. I understand why the Bulls do it -- they have to keep hope alive and ticket sales humming.

I wonder who is source is, I am guessing it rhymes with Veggie Hose.

Wilbon has made the same type of tirades as well. Asserting essentially that its just stupid to bring Rose back this year, likewise citing the team's (lack of) strength as part of the reasoning.

But basically telling fans, it doesn't matter how good he is looking or what his state is physically, don't get your hopes up, because this year just doesn't make sense. Lot of oxymoronic thinking there.

[BuffaloBull]

BB, that was my theory for the longest time, however in regards to ACL recovery, that is not how it works.

It's also not just two interviews with his brother, it's been well documented here and elsewhere how much control Reggie has over Derrick and Derrick's decision. Frankly I have never ever seen anything like it.

I think Derrick could be playing 10 minutes a game, for quite some time now, and that that would be helping his rehab. Not that there is always only one way to skin the cat.

Under your scenario though, and my old one, while true, it means that a couple of CPHS guys who couldn't pass the SAT's are taking it upon themselves to redo the current accepted and working ACL recovery model.

The mental aspect is a known issue that everybody has to fight through. Except Derrick. He's not fighting through it.

I mean it's possible it's mental for Derrick and Reggie is great with that because he just plain doesn't want Derrick to play this season.

It's not a normal recovery though, with implications for next season.

You're creating this hard and fast distinction between mental and physical though, which is artificial. The mental is physical, especially when it comes to an elite athlete.

Derrick's always had a cautious nature, and he could have been back playing by now, but I don't think he's doing any harm by rehabbing hard and practicing until he gets that signal, from his body, that he's ready to go. And to say he should be doing x or y, from where I sit, is not something I'm prepared to do. Because the information I can draw from (published reports, blog posts, articles) is so far removed from what's really going on that it just feels unbelievably presumptuous that I, internet board poster, know better than Derrick does when it comes to his own rehab.

The NBA is littered with guys who either came back from injuries generally too early (Arenas, like Wilbon mentioned, Granger this year etc, Grant Hill, on his ankle all those years) or showed no ability to listen to their body, like Greg Oden. Playing compromised is dangerous, and probably moreso for a guy like Rose, who is used to being so dynamic. So if he wants to come back when he is extra ready instead of just ready, I think that's fine.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because the whole topic just bugs me, and I don't want to get drawn into a conversation. It's Derrick's decision, and I'm cool with whatever he decides to do, and he doesn't owe me anything as a basketball and Bulls fan.

[DaMayor73]

You're creating this hard and fast distinction between mental and physical though, which is artificial. The mental is physical, especially when it comes to an elite athlete.

Derrick's always had a cautious nature, and he could have been back playing by now, but I don't think he's doing any harm by rehabbing hard and practicing until he gets that signal, from his body, that he's ready to go. And to say he should be doing x or y, from where I sit, is not something I'm prepared to do. Because the information I can draw from (published reports, blog posts, articles) is so far removed from what's really going on that it just feels unbelievably presumptuous that I, internet board poster, know better than Derrick does when it comes to his own rehab.

The NBA is littered with guys who either came back from injuries generally too early (Arenas, like Wilbon mentioned, Granger this year etc, Grant Hill, on his ankle all those years) or showed no ability to listen to their body, like Greg Oden. Playing compromised is dangerous, and probably moreso for a guy like Rose, who is used to being so dynamic. So if he wants to come back when he is extra ready instead of just ready, I think that's fine.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because the whole topic just bugs me, and I don't want to get drawn into a conversation. It's Derrick's decision, and I'm cool with whatever he decides to do, and he doesn't owe me anything as a basketball and Bulls fan.

Bravo!! Close thread. I just don't understand why some posters here don't get what you have articulated here.

[ryannik09]

http://www.blogabull.com/2012/12/22/3795968/derrick-rose-return-ric-bucher-goes-bizarrely-full-blast-on-bulls-org

A source continues to insist Derrick is not coming back any time soon, if at all, this season, no matter how often the Bulls or anyone else in Chicago starts to get breathless about him practicing or working out. I understand why the Bulls do it -- they have to keep hope alive and ticket sales humming.

I wonder who is source is, I am guessing it rhymes with Veggie Hose.

Wilbon has made the same type of tirades as well. Asserting essentially that its just stupid to bring Rose back this year, likewise citing the team's (lack of) strength as part of the reasoning.

But basically telling fans, it doesn't matter how good he is looking or what his state is physically, don't get your hopes up, because this year just doesn't make sense. Lot of oxymoronic thinking there.

Yea its ridiculous. Wilbon is so far out of touch on this issue, his article yesterday was unreal. He compared Rose's ACL tear to Arenas, Penny, Tim Hardaway, and Bernard King.

Penny had a degenerative cartilage issue in his knee(s). Arenas damaged the cartilage in his knee. These situations are very similar to what Brandon Roy went through, and have potential to end careers. Cartilage issues are a death sentence for explosive athletic basketball players.

But to compare ACL surgery in 2012 to ACL surgery in 1992(TIM) and 1985(KING) was the frosting on the cake. He doesn't even understand or want to acknowledge the advancements in the rehab & surgery. They use a completely different tendon to repair the ACL now then they did 15-20 years ago.

I think its pretty obvious that Wilbon just doesnt want to jeopardize his relationship with the Rose family.

[Dieselbound&Down]

The funny thing about my back and forth with Rerisen: the two points aren't mutually exclusive, really.

Rose is a superstar. He is the first with an ACL tear. And he's taking the longest to come back. And he has a family member who is shooting his mouth off and claiming to call the shots.

Sentence 4 is a part of Sentence 1. Ego is the tax you pay for having a superstar. The 04-05 Bulls were loaded with guys who would race back ASAP as they wanted to build their reputations--earn bloated contract extensions far beyond their worth. We loved their fire, desire and passion...and we wanted nothing more. We had zero desire back then for a 'special' player...i dont think...

Not true. Of course fans wanted a superstar. But it was clear the players on the team were not there and it was really unlikely that any could make that jump. (At that point maybe Chandler and Crawford) The fans were happy with the team that year, though, because the franchise was just coming out of a historically bad stretch of teams that were embarrassing so it was nice to see a team that, although they clearly had limits, played hard, was competitive and was something other than downright awful.

The end of that post was meant to be sarcasm

My bad. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. So much stuff being thrown around in these threads I lost my way.

[kyrv]

I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because the whole topic just bugs me, and I don't want to get drawn into a conversation. It's Derrick's decision, and I'm cool with whatever he decides to do, and he doesn't owe me anything as a basketball and Bulls fan.

I won't answer the rest because you (as usual) are very clear in your thoughts. Just to note, I want to believe that's the case. I think there is a chance, perhaps not the betting favorite, but that he's fine by Christmas and everything is super duper. I'm not dismissing of that angle/theory.

But it's also possible that's not the case.

[panthermark]

I've seen Granger mentioned a couple times over the past few days. Granger didn't come back to early, Granger never re-injured himself. Granger didn't even have "surgery" prior to going out.

Granger basiclly has super-duper tendinitis (tendinosis).

They tried to manage the pain, but could not.

Very few examples of recent cases gon bad relate to Rose. Maybe Michael Redd or something like that, but ankles, microfacture surgery, cartilage issues....that isn't what is impacting Rose.

[kyrv]

You're creating this hard and fast distinction between mental and physical though, which is artificial. The mental is physical, especially when it comes to an elite athlete.

Derrick's always had a cautious nature, and he could have been back playing by now, but I don't think he's doing any harm by rehabbing hard and practicing until he gets that signal, from his body, that he's ready to go. And to say he should be doing x or y, from where I sit, is not something I'm prepared to do. Because the information I can draw from (published reports, blog posts, articles) is so far removed from what's really going on that it just feels unbelievably presumptuous that I, internet board poster, know better than Derrick does when it comes to his own rehab.

The NBA is littered with guys who either came back from injuries generally too early (Arenas, like Wilbon mentioned, Granger this year etc, Grant Hill, on his ankle all those years) or showed no ability to listen to their body, like Greg Oden. Playing compromised is dangerous, and probably moreso for a guy like Rose, who is used to being so dynamic. So if he wants to come back when he is extra ready instead of just ready, I think that's fine.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because the whole topic just bugs me, and I don't want to get drawn into a conversation. It's Derrick's decision, and I'm cool with whatever he decides to do, and he doesn't owe me anything as a basketball and Bulls fan.

Bravo!! Close thread. I just don't understand why some posters here don't get what you have articulated here.

Not sure. Maybe because there are several plausible theories. Not just one.

Bravo!! Reopen thread.

[ryannik09]

I've seen Granger mentioned a couple times over the past few days. Granger didn't come back to early, Granger never re-injured himself. Granger didn't even have "surgery" prior to going out.

Granger basiclly has super-duper tendinitis (tendinosis).

They tried to manage the pain, but could not.

Very few examples of recent cases gon bad relate to Rose. Maybe Michael Redd or something like that, but ankles, microfacture surgery, cartilage issues....that isn't what is impacting Rose.

Yea I am so tired of knee injuries that are not similar to ACL tears (which are routine at this point) being compared to ACL tears. Whats terrible is these injuries are being compared by what are supposedly nationally respected journalists ***wilbon****cough****wilbon***

Arenas, Roy, Penny - cartilage issues
Granger - patellar tendinosis

[BULLHITTER]

Not sure. Maybe because there are several plausible theories. Not just one.

Bravo!! Reopen thread.

as long as there's a dead horse to be beaten, i'm sure there's a fan who'll beat it.