Derrick Rose Thread #13 - Acceptance

[panthermark]

I've seen Granger mentioned a couple times over the past few days. Granger didn't come back to early, Granger never re-injured himself. Granger didn't even have "surgery" prior to going out.

Granger basiclly has super-duper tendinitis (tendinosis).

They tried to manage the pain, but could not.

Very few examples of recent cases gon bad relate to Rose. Maybe Michael Redd or something like that, but ankles, microfacture surgery, cartilage issues....that isn't what is impacting Rose.

Yea I am so tired of knee injuries that are not similar to ACL tears (which are routine at this point) being compared to ACL tears. Whats terrible is these injuries are being compared by what are supposedly nationally respected journalists ***wilbon****cough****wilbon***

Arenas, Roy, Penny - cartilage issues
Granger - patellar tendinosis

The arguments make even less sense becuase Rose is saying it is a mental issue (confidence), not a physical issue. Yet writers point to players with different injuries and talk about coming back too soon. We are well beyond coming back "too soon" for Rose.

It is like they are throwing multiple excuses at the wall to see what sticks....even if they contridict each other.

I'm not even mad at Rose..I can kinda see the angle of waiting to get his burst back. But I am pretty disappointed in the boot-licking.

[kyrv]

I've seen Granger mentioned a couple times over the past few days. Granger didn't come back to early, Granger never re-injured himself. Granger didn't even have "surgery" prior to going out.

Granger basiclly has super-duper tendinitis (tendinosis).

They tried to manage the pain, but could not.

Very few examples of recent cases gon bad relate to Rose. Maybe Michael Redd or something like that, but ankles, microfacture surgery, cartilage issues....that isn't what is impacting Rose.

Yea I am so tired of knee injuries that are not similar to ACL tears (which are routine at this point) being compared to ACL tears. Whats terrible is these injuries are being compared by what are supposedly nationally respected journalists ***wilbon****cough****wilbon***

Arenas, Roy, Penny - cartilage issues
Granger - patellar tendinosis

The arguments make even less sense becuase Rose is saying it is a mental issue (confidence), not a physical issue. Yet writers point to players with different injuries and talk about coming back too soon. We are well beyond coming back "too soon" for Rose.

It is like they are throwing multiple excuses at the wall to see what sticks....even if they contridict each other.

I'm not even mad at Rose..I can kinda see the angle of waiting to get his burst back. But I am pretty disappointed in the boot-licking.

I was fine with him not playing until I found out that the rehab calls for you to play in real games. In fact that's documented in an early thread, but someone posted that the accepted best practices call for him to play in games, and that in doing so, he also needs to get past the mental hurdle. That is, you get better physically by playing, and you get better mentally by playing.

[AirP.]

The more I think about it, the more it just sounds wrong.

"I think I can do everything," Rose said a month ago. "It's just me having the confidence to do it. Just me feeling normal. Just me taking my time and being prepared and knowing when I come back I want to be 100 percent."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/ne ... z2RVNiaCb9

IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING RE-INJURED. It's about being 100%? Many players aren't 100% throughout the season. Noah is in worse shape then Rose and he's giving it his all. I get it's a business and you have to protect yourself(the player) but as a teammate, I don't see how you can't be at least a little upset at Rose when you have players like Noah doing everything it takes to be on the court, especially in the playoffs when the season could be very close to over. Basically worst case scenario is that Rose plays a little timid till he makes that one play where he goes... I guess I have no reason to worry!

Rose at 70% would help this team out greatly moving Hinrich to the bench and making the overall active roster that much stronger.

[blumeany]

Again.

- Rose has said he's fine physically
- He's coming up on 12 months post surgery, the back end of the estimate
- There have never been any talks of setbacks, only talks of 'being ahead of schedule'.
- Once the ACL has healed and 5-on-5 type practice can be resumed, it is assumed that there is no increased threat of re-injury. There are no doctors that would say that sitting out an additional 4-5 months will make his knee any stronger or any less likely to be reinjured.

DERRICK ROSE IS SITTING OUT OF HIS OWN ACCORD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONSTRAINT HOLDING HIM BACK - ONLY MENTAL AND POSSIBLY THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. That is why he cannot just come out and say 'I'm not coming back'. Because he has NO PHYSICAL REASON to not come back. His reasons are purely PERSONAL. So, what they hope to do is continue to spin the narrative of 'hey, maybe, just maybe....' until the playoffs are over and then go 'oh darn, still not there yet, see you next year!'.

[blumeany]

Again.

- Rose has said he's fine physically
- He's coming up on 12 months post surgery, the back end of the estimate
- There have never been any talks of setbacks, only talks of 'being ahead of schedule'.
- Once the ACL has healed and 5-on-5 type practice can be resumed, it is assumed that there is no increased threat of re-injury. There are no doctors that would say that sitting out an additional 4-5 months will make his knee any stronger or any less likely to be reinjured.

DERRICK ROSE IS SITTING OUT OF HIS OWN ACCORD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONSTRAINT HOLDING HIM BACK - ONLY MENTAL AND POSSIBLY THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. That is why he cannot just come out and say 'I'm not coming back'. Because he has NO PHYSICAL REASON to not come back. His reasons are purely PERSONAL. So, what they hope to do is continue to spin the narrative of 'hey, maybe, just maybe....' until the playoffs are over and then go 'oh darn, still not there yet, see you next year!'.

[bullsnewdynasty]

So he's never going to play again against other teams?

Rose might as well have one of those red scrimmage jerseys they give quarterbacks on NFL teams right now. There's a clear difference in scrimmaging against teammates and being in a game setting vs. opponents who aren't going to take it easy on you and play as physical as possible.

He'll play again, but if he's not mentally ready, why toss him out against a team in the most physical setting the NBA has to offer?

There you go making sense again.....risks vs. rewards. There are very few pros but a host of cons for him coming back now.

What exactly are the cons again? He was cleared. That means there is no higher risk for injury than for any other player. Basically, Rose is sitting out because he's scared of coming back - which is the blunt definition of "not being mentally ready."

[AAU Teammate]

I'm not condoning Derrick in saying this, but just pointing out-- the fact that he's now 'no increased chance of reinjury' ...it means tons, yes. But to his mind....it means less than it does ours. Because he now is someone who has torn their ACL.

And seen their earning potential/generational wealth from Adidas flash before their eyes.

So his caution (most believably) stems from this, and (less believably) is part of his distate for this team...

(and least believably) is part of his brother's distaste for this team. Everyone knows that team, healthy, is either 2 or 3 best in the East.

[kyrv]

BB - Just to add again, I really appreciate your thoughts, like many hear you are very thoughtful and not prone to wild ravings and instant gratification don't seek out the negative.

I'm also a champion of the club, you should rarely rarely rarely ever question a player on injuries. That's why this is so bizarre. There was a thread here where people were saying to shut Noah down, and threads about Deng "should have surgery" or "should have had surgery". I have NO idea how people can know that, and state things in any other than as guesses.

Again, this story is bizarre, in a bad way, and different. ACL is the perhaps one of the few injuries where the rehab actually calls for the player to play. The mental hurdle is a known commodity. ACL people need to play for both physical and mental reasons. It's just not like other guys (kudos to Michael Jackson).

While it's fine and I have no issues if people want to let Rose take his time, a lot of people just want him to follow accepted rehab procedures, like every other athlete. That's not wacky, that's NOT being owed anything, as you alluded to.

----------------------------

And I'll again mention, people defending him are throwing him under the bus but just massaging the cr*p out of it, and then when people use the simpler, actual terms, they are termed as anti-Rose. Very unfair.

If you think he can play but isn't, whether because he's afraid, or is in protest, that's not a testament to his character as a player, person, and teammate. It's like, I didn't run away from the fight, I bravely sought new surroundings.

[kyrv]

I'm not condoning Derrick in saying this, but just pointing out-- the fact that he's now 'no increased chance of reinjury' ...it means tons, yes. But to his mind....it means less than it does ours. Because he now is someone who has torn their ACL.

And seen their earning potential/generational wealth from Adidas flash before their eyes.

So his caution (most believably) stems from this, and (less believably) is part of his distate for this team...

(and least believably) is part of his brother's distaste for this team. Everyone knows that team, healthy, is either 2 or 3 best in the East.

You would think so, but we've had quite a few people that are fine and even like it if he's sitting out in protest.

We had one last night.

It's the "must have another big name". Which of course is odd considering Rose chose not to recruit in 2010 because he liked his guys.

I also think we need to come to terms just how much influence Reggie has over Derrick, with Reg even bragging about it.

[kyrv]

I've seen Granger mentioned a couple times over the past few days. Granger didn't come back to early, Granger never re-injured himself. Granger didn't even have "surgery" prior to going out.

Granger basiclly has super-duper tendinitis (tendinosis).

They tried to manage the pain, but could not.

Very few examples of recent cases gon bad relate to Rose. Maybe Michael Redd or something like that, but ankles, microfacture surgery, cartilage issues....that isn't what is impacting Rose.

Yea I am so tired of knee injuries that are not similar to ACL tears (which are routine at this point) being compared to ACL tears. Whats terrible is these injuries are being compared by what are supposedly nationally respected journalists ***wilbon****cough****wilbon***

Arenas, Roy, Penny - cartilage issues
Granger - patellar tendinosis

The arguments make even less sense becuase Rose is saying it is a mental issue (confidence), not a physical issue. Yet writers point to players with different injuries and talk about coming back too soon. We are well beyond coming back "too soon" for Rose.

It is like they are throwing multiple excuses at the wall to see what sticks....even if they contridict each other.

I'm not even mad at Rose..I can kinda see the angle of waiting to get his burst back. But I am pretty disappointed in the boot-licking.

Rose is definitely being enabled in my opinion. But he is a 25 year old professional, I have no idea what percentage of blame should be allotted. It is ultimately his decision but he spent many months I think more with Team Thorn than with the team, lots of time for persuasive words.

Basically I'm not sure he needed much convincing, if any, to not play. But that's getting into guess work. He's been cleared to play for 2 months and needs to play to continue his rehab, both mentally and physically (just to re-summarize where he is at), so yes I believe he could be playing 10 minutes a game, and for a while now.

[AAU Teammate]

It's the "must have another big name". Which of course is odd considering Rose chose not to recruit in 2010 because he liked his guys.

I also think we need to come to terms just how much influence Reggie has over Derrick, with Reg even bragging about it.

Derrick not enjoying recruiting is very much on my mind on this thing, actually.

Guys like Reggie and William Wesley perhaps like recruiting. Love it. Love bragging that they do it and that they hold influence. I wonder though if they really hold all the influence they claim to.

As a side note, I've heard that Rose's family is kind of united in being sick of troubled sibling Allan.......but that Derrick alone is the one that fights to keep him in the fold, look out for him. Derrick may not be the innocent he is made out to be. It can be more layered than that. We also have Derrick's HS coach saying that Reggie and Derrick are very different people and that Derrick has his own mind about things.



You have credible fears but I also just see these extra dimensions to the thing. And we can all agree-- it's confusing.

EDIT: well the posters that have extremely strong viewpoints on the matter may not feel that confusion...but I do.

[red222]

"I think I have had enough time" was a quote the sticks out to me that sounded like a comment toward his management and sort of in agreement with popular opinion that he probably should be playing.

[kyrv]

It's the "must have another big name". Which of course is odd considering Rose chose not to recruit in 2010 because he liked his guys.

I also think we need to come to terms just how much influence Reggie has over Derrick, with Reg even bragging about it.

Derrick not enjoying recruiting is very much on my mind on this thing, actually.

Guys like Reggie and William Wesley perhaps like recruiting. Love it. Love bragging that they do it and that they hold influence. I wonder though if they really hold all the influence they claim to.

As a side note, I've heard that Rose's family is kind of united in being sick of troubled sibling Allan.......but that Derrick alone is the one that fights to keep him in the fold, look out for him. Derrick may not be the innocent he is made out to be. It can be more layered than that. We also have Derrick's HS coach saying that Reggie and Derrick are very different people and that Derrick has his own mind about things.

Didn't know that, thanks.

I think the fair thing for me is to acknowledge Reggie has and has had a huge influence on Derrick's life, but that ultimately nobody can prevent Derrick from playing except Derrick. And to note that he is being enabled to not do something that he doesn't want to do (by his team, the media, the Bulls, everyone), and that's tempting, I mean, if we don't want to do something, it's nice to have the option of not doing it. ;p

But given what a competitor he is, I still can't imagine he won't suit up and at least play a few minutes. That drive that drove him to greatness and to win the MVP, it has to be there, that fire...right?

Like tonight, how does he not want to be a part of that, and not suit up by halftime? Oh I guess the 12 man unit will be official. Well call me silly, or Shirley, but I would make Rose active, although, wait, by rule he'd have to be in uniform right? So never mind on the half-time thing, wishful thinking.

[panthermark]

"I think I have had enough time" was a quote the sticks out to me that sounded like a comment toward his management and sort of in agreement with popular opinion that he probably should be playing.

Yup, I remember that quote. I highlighted that quoted, and even emailed KC to let him know he had misquoted that quote (never heard back).

[Dieselbound&Down]

Again.

- Rose has said he's fine physically
- He's coming up on 12 months post surgery, the back end of the estimate
- There have never been any talks of setbacks, only talks of 'being ahead of schedule'.
- Once the ACL has healed and 5-on-5 type practice can be resumed, it is assumed that there is no increased threat of re-injury. There are no doctors that would say that sitting out an additional 4-5 months will make his knee any stronger or any less likely to be reinjured.

DERRICK ROSE IS SITTING OUT OF HIS OWN ACCORD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONSTRAINT HOLDING HIM BACK - ONLY MENTAL AND POSSIBLY THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. That is why he cannot just come out and say 'I'm not coming back'. Because he has NO PHYSICAL REASON to not come back. His reasons are purely PERSONAL. So, what they hope to do is continue to spin the narrative of 'hey, maybe, just maybe....' until the playoffs are over and then go 'oh darn, still not there yet, see you next year!'.

He would have been a lot better off coming clean 1 month ago or as the playoffs approached. A simple statement like "I consulted with my doctors and the team and, although I am recovering well, we made a decision that at this point in the season it is not ideal for the team if I were to try and work back into the rotation. I have missed so much time that I can't reasonably be in position to help the team and so we decided I will not play in this season."

I'm sure the team would have co-signed and, however unhappy this would make some people, there would be an affirmative statement and people could move on. At this point there is nothing positive coming from this.

[kyrv]

Again.

- Rose has said he's fine physically
- He's coming up on 12 months post surgery, the back end of the estimate
- There have never been any talks of setbacks, only talks of 'being ahead of schedule'.
- Once the ACL has healed and 5-on-5 type practice can be resumed, it is assumed that there is no increased threat of re-injury. There are no doctors that would say that sitting out an additional 4-5 months will make his knee any stronger or any less likely to be reinjured.

DERRICK ROSE IS SITTING OUT OF HIS OWN ACCORD. THERE IS NO PHYSICAL CONSTRAINT HOLDING HIM BACK - ONLY MENTAL AND POSSIBLY THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. That is why he cannot just come out and say 'I'm not coming back'. Because he has NO PHYSICAL REASON to not come back. His reasons are purely PERSONAL. So, what they hope to do is continue to spin the narrative of 'hey, maybe, just maybe....' until the playoffs are over and then go 'oh darn, still not there yet, see you next year!'.

He would have been a lot better off coming clean 1 month ago or as the playoffs approached. A simple statement like "I consulted with my doctors and the team and, although I am recovering well, we made a decision that at this point in the season it is not ideal for the team if I were to try and work back into the rotation. I have missed so much time that I can't reasonably be in position to help the team and so we decided I will not play in this season."

I'm sure the team would have co-signed and, however unhappy this would make some people, there would be an affirmative statement and people could move on. At this point there is nothing positive coming from this.

I was against a deadline however if they all knew he wasn't going to play, in sports history, 90%+ of the time the team would announce it and people would, as you said, move on. Big story at the time, but playoffs would be just the playoffs and not, how is Rose reacting on the sidelines.

But all part of the veil of secrecy which begs questions and doubt.

I agree now there doesn't appear to be a graceful exit, even if he plays, and that's the best scenario, oh he's playing now only because they won a game.

[red222]

Of course, it's natural to be disappointed that Rose hasn't made it back from ACL surgery. His teammates are disappointed. Adidas is disappointed. His brothers — well, at least two of them — are disappointed.

Former Bulls center Will Perdue talked about Rose's prolonged comeback during an appearance Tuesday morning on WSCR Radio.

"I talked to Derrick throughout the season when I was in Chicago," Perdue said. "It started out with, 'It's going really good, rehab's going well,' to 'I'm back on the floor, but I'm a little concerned because after I go hard, I get up the next day and there's some pain and some swelling.'
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2013 ... /704239634

From Tuesday

[kyrv]

Of course, it's natural to be disappointed that Rose hasn't made it back from ACL surgery. His teammates are disappointed. Adidas is disappointed. His brothers — well, at least two of them — are disappointed.

Former Bulls center Will Perdue talked about Rose's prolonged comeback during an appearance Tuesday morning on WSCR Radio.

"I talked to Derrick throughout the season when I was in Chicago," Perdue said. "It started out with, 'It's going really good, rehab's going well,' to 'I'm back on the floor, but I'm a little concerned because after I go hard, I get up the next day and there's some pain and some swelling.'
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2013 ... /704239634

From Tuesday

Thanks red!

" His brothers — well, at least two of them — are disappointed."

Shots fired.

[panthermark]

My "internal" deadline was 10.5 months. I thought the optimum return time was 10 months and one week....which would have been about a month after he was fully cleared, and would have been during that three game homestretch of Denver, Portland, and Indiana.

I have a hard time believing that Rose was not (and still isn't) mentally capable of starting out with 15-20 minutes per game with no back-to-backs +10 months post surgery (without any setbacks). Rubio and Shumpert both played about 18 minutes in their first game back.

I "want" to give Rose the benefit of the doubt on this, but if "feels" like the decision was made that he wasn't going play this year no matter what. I think that is why nothing adds up and everything seems random and thrown together. The Bulls were set up perfectly to gently roll Rose back in. They were basicaly locked into the 5-6 spot since the All-Star break. They way the division was, they were never in danger of dropping to the 8th seed, or out of the offs...so they had "games to burn" while bringing him back.

Oh well...Reggie won this battle.

[kyrv]

My "internal" deadline was 10.5 months. I thought the optimum return time was 10 months and one week....which would have been about a month after he was fully cleared, and would have been during that three game homestretch of Denver, Portland, and Indiana.

I have a hard time believing that Rose was not (and still isn't) mentally capable of starting out with 15-20 minutes per game with no back-to-backs +10 months post surgery (without any setbacks). Rubio and Shumpert both played about 18 minutes in their first game back.

I "want" to give Rose the benefit of the doubt on this, but if "feels" like the decision was made that he wasn't going play this year no matter what. I think that is why nothing adds up and everything seems random and thrown together. The Bulls were set up perfectly to gently roll Rose back in. They were basicaly locked into the 5-6 spot since the All-Star break. They way the division was, they were never in danger of dropping to the 8th seed, or out of the offs...so they had "games to burn" while bringing him back.

Oh well...Reggie won this battle.

Yep. Also, I think(?) that like BB and bullhitter aren't claiming he can't do that, but that they are okay with his approach. Hopefully I'm not mischaracterizing that. Which isn't a word but hey.

A word on Adidas, I think "disappointed" is a pretty tame description to use, if I may make a wild guess. ;p

Oh and timelines, I think one month after being cleared is pretty conservative and allows more time than any one else took. But not unreasonable.

But we've spent hundreds of pages discussing his knee and it might not be about the knee.