2019 Draft Thread Volume #6 - Post Lottery

[bearadonisdna]

Zach with 23.7 ppg on 52%efgs is somebody I want running the offense.

Look throughout the league and he is relatively a top 20 offensive player.

Him running the show is to promote a sustained attack.

Some of the obscure stats like rpm have to be taken into context.
Even a cold hard adv stat Bpm Zach remains positive on a tanking team.

You can't take the most obscure metrics to make it a players identity.

It's like using forensics to determine probable cause, and then convicting him on that alone.

[sco]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

[rtblues]

Are people forgetting when they tried to let Zach run it?
The turnovers and bad shots were through the roof.
I'd say Zach needs to be a better off-the-ball player, a 2, cause he ain't a 1.
He could also still add some weight/muscle too IMO.

[wonderboy2]

Boy I tell you trading Lavine for the 3rd pick would be the dumbest thing the bulls could do. People want to bring up Net positive this but on a team like the bulls that’s asinine. Lavine was definitely the bulls best player last year and it wasn’t even close. Lavine was getting doubled and tripled teamed last year on a nightly basis and saw all of the leagues best defenders. News flash none of them could stop him. Lavine gave Elite defenders an efficient 30 on a nightly basis. I bet some people look at numbers and will say “ hey look at Archie numbers on the court the bulls are bettter with Archi on the team rather than Lavine” lololol. And don’t give me that bull about Lavine being a net negative on that **** up Timberwolves team. I can go on and on but it’s a pointless argument.

[PrimzyBulls81]

Boy I tell you trading Lavine for the 3rd pick would be the dumbest thing the bulls could do. People want to bring up Net positive this but on a team like the bulls that’s asinine. Lavine was definitely the bulls best player last year and it wasn’t even close. Lavine was getting doubled and tripled teamed last year on a nightly basis and saw all of the leagues best defenders. News flash none of them could stop him. Lavine gave Elite defenders an efficient 30 on a nightly basis. I bet some people look at numbers and will say “ hey look at Archie numbers on the court the bulls are bettter with Archi on the team rather than Lavine” lololol. And don’t give me that bull about Lavine being a net negative on that **** up Timberwolves team. I can go on and on but it’s a pointless argument.

Yep, I agree

[bearadonisdna]

Are people forgetting when they tried to let Zach run it?
The turnovers and bad shots were through the roof.
I'd say Zach needs to be a better off-the-ball player, a 2, cause he ain't a 1.
He could also still add some weight/muscle too IMO.

At some point your best player has to be gameplanned on the ball.
Why?
It's because idk if a guard better than Zach is coming through that door.

[NewEra21]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

[wonderboy2]

Are people forgetting when they tried to let Zach run it?
The turnovers and bad shots were through the roof.
I'd say Zach needs to be a better off-the-ball player, a 2, cause he ain't a 1.
He could also still add some weight/muscle too IMO.

Biggest myth here in this board. Yea when Lavine ran point guard he did turn the ball over but it was because he was getting trippledbteamed and he had no other option. But good things happened when Lavine ran point at times. Lavine got Lauri and Porter so many wide open looks it was Crazy. Teams also had nightmares guarding Lavine in those high ball screens. The turnovers was bad but somebody who faced the type of defensive attention Zach faced is going to turn the ball over. Look at guys like 1)Harden, 2)Westbrook 3) Devin Booker 4) Devin Booker 5) Trae young 6) Antetokounmpo 7) Doncic. All those guys had a turnover rates higher then Lavine and all played on teams that had significantly better offensive talent around them most of the season. Now is Lavine a full time pg? Hell no! But Lavine can definitely be a creator on ball at that posistion in stretches. That’s why a Brogdon would be the perfect fit for the bulls.

[AKfanatic]

Are people forgetting when they tried to let Zach run it?
The turnovers and bad shots were through the roof.
I'd say Zach needs to be a better off-the-ball player, a 2, cause he ain't a 1.
He could also still add some weight/muscle too IMO.

Agreed.....

Though I will say, if I were the Bulls, I wouldn’t be against giving Zach a real shot at running the offense. I wouldn’t go into the season with an expectation of Zach doing it for big minutes, and would definitely be looking for an upgrade at the point, I’d also prefer Lavine play off ball the majority of the time.......

But, Zach showed a lot of improvement all around last season and I’d be interested in seeing if he can continue that trajectory. While he did struggle mightily running the show, particularly in crunch time, he also started showing some real nice signs the last couple months of the season.

To start the season, for months, he threw a lot of terrible passes.....his cross court passes were atrocious and seemed to always end in turnovers. To end the season, his biggest problem seemed to be trying to force passes instead of attacking and letting lanes present themselves. When he did probe and play a more patient game, he was hitting guys with really good timing and in great position to score.

It really comes down to BBIQ with Zach. The Bulls definitely need a solid point or another 2 guard that can defend the point and be counted on to run the offense in high pressure situations, but Lavine showed promise and improved on his shortcomings more than I expected...... and I was one who had close to zero faith in Zach heading into last season.

[wonderboy2]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

Bulls get fleeced in that deal. New York does back flips and laughs at this trade. Every team in this trade gets better besides the bulls who take 3 steps back.

[NewEra21]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

Bulls get fleeced in that deal. New York does back flips and laughs at this trade. Every team in this trade gets better besides the bulls who take 3 steps back.

You just value Zach Lavine more than I do. He would better suited on a team like that. Option 2b or 3. Secondary creator. Still able to space the floor and let Zion go to work.

[AKfanatic]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

The difference between Zach and Hill far far far far...outweighs the difference between the 3 and 7 pick in this draft. That’s just ugly for the Bulls while also helping the Knicks become another contender in the East (as I’d assume they land a big FA with AD in the fold)

[BahamaBull]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

Bulls get fleeced in that deal. New York does back flips and laughs at this trade. Every team in this trade gets better besides the bulls who take 3 steps back.

Thats a horrible trade for the Bulls...Lavine must be the most underrated player in the league...

[Chi town]

I would trade Lavine for #3 and then get Brogdon here to pair with RJ and another wing who can shoot along with Lauri and WCJ. That is a team I would be interested in watching every game of.

I would do that too, but wouldn’t the Knicks want #7 in return? Unless you meant #7 + LaVine for #3.

I like LaVine more than RJ tbh.

I like Lavine way more too!

People are overreacting due to us missing everyone last year. Lavine Otto Lauri is a damn good trio with considerable upside that fits this modern NBA. You plug in vets like Beverley and Taj with Val, Hutch, WCJ we will be a fun competitive team that could make some noise.

Pax will just pick who is at 7. I think his board there is Garland Culver Coby Hunter.

[cjbulls]

I would do Lavine for 3 in a New York Minute.

Having him "lead the charge" is a bad idea. Recipe for less than mediocre team for a while that is for sure. Think about this. If he is your best player and he has very high usage, why can't he move the needle on one of the league's worst teams. I mean the guys replacing him off the bench last year were barely NBA caliber players, more like G leaguers really, and his impact was very minor. That should never be the case on a team like that. A good winning player is going to have big net positive impact not 2 PP100.

It's a fair point. I would definitely be open to trading LaVine for 3 or LaVine for something that gets you 3 (keeping some assets and combining others with 7 or however it became packaged). I think LaVine has all the skills to be a game changer and he's entering that period where it will show. You watch these playoffs and the one thing teams can't get enough of is someone who can create plays with the ball. I don't want him as my "leader", at least not in the sense of a Kobe-dominant scorer, but I love his ability to create offense. I don't buy into the plus/minus stuff as much as others.

Barrett is flawed too. For starters, you'd lose Zach's 3pt shooting. More importantly, we don't know how efficient Barrett will become. If he doesn't become efficient, he's like a late-stage Carmelo and that will guarantee you never win. He needs to at least hit Zach's efficiency level because he doesn't bring much else to the table. But to try it on a much younger player with a much lower contract value is intriguing.

+/- and RPM are things you have to take into context. On a game by game basis they aren't going to tell you much. However, when you are on a team with a horrible bench and you are playing 30+ minutes per game you have to look at what is happening. If the guy that are coming into the game to replace you are marginal NBA talent, you should have a fairly solid impact profile. In his case, he has not been a needle mover in his 5 seasons in the league. I mean this is a player entering his 6th NBA season. It's time for him to start being a real difference maker. In RPM he was 186th in the NBA last season. If we don't see a big jump in impact, he his never going to be that player we need him to here. Problem is that he thinks he's a superstar and has the usage rate of one. He wants the ball in his hands at the end of a game and it's been disastrous so far.

I understand, but it’s also role dependent. As an extreme example, we can agree that Siakam is good, and probably a high +/- player. But what happens if you put five Siakams on the court together? They would struggle to generate offense. They need other players to make them work.

Role still matters. Who is he playing with? What is the scheme? Are we maximizing their talents together. Do you think if we switched LaVine and Klay Thompson, Zach would have the same +/-? It’s just such an abstract measurement. I don’t know how reliable it can be.

I know you mentioned you didn’t get to see as much this year, you were lucky. The guys on the bench were bad and the starting guys were just as terrible. Half the team was injured plus the coaching debacle. One day Lauri looks like a star, the next day it’s hard to get him to shoot. I’m not sure much can be taken away from this season.

But Zach showed this year that he’s a scoring machine capable of putting up high-volume efficient scoring numbers. He also showed increased playmaking and defense. It’s still very much a work in progress. I do not know if he will make it in those areas which is why I’d be open to moving him for the right deal (Barrett makes for an interesting deal). And, even as is, Zach has shown an elite critical skill that 95% of the league can’t replicate.

[NewEra21]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

The difference between Zach and Hill far far far far...outweighs the difference between the 3 and 7 pick in this draft. That’s just ugly for the Bulls while also helping the Knicks become another contender in the East (as I’d assume they land a big FA with AD in the fold)

To each his own. Im not viewing Hill as a player. Hes pure salary relief for the Pelicans. Allows the the Bulls to reallocate money around and go for different players in FA. Hell, this adds an extra 6 mil in cap for us this year and then 19 mil the year after. The upgrade from whoever we get at 7 to RJ Barrett is substantial.

With that extra money, we can throw it at someone like Brogdon. Run a jumbo lineup of
Brogdon
Barrett
Porter Jr
Markkanen
Carter Jr

When we want to go small, Barrett can easily slide to the 3, Porter to the 4. I like the look of this now and into the future.

[MGB8]

IMO, Knicks put #3 (or 8 & 10 from ATL), Knox and Robinson out there to NO for AD...that might do it.

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

Bulls get fleeced in that deal. New York does back flips and laughs at this trade. Every team in this trade gets better besides the bulls who take 3 steps back.

Agreed. Taking back a bad contract and losing a solid value player with upside to be worth more than his contract if he continues to develop (and that's me making pretty close to a 180 on Lavine, but he showed a lot last season) to move up to #3 from #7 in what is effectively a two player draft, with a lot of parity in talent between picks 3 and 7 or 8....

No thanks.

[bearadonisdna]

Bulls get:
#3
Solomon Hill

Pelicans get:
#7
Zach Lavine
Mitchell Robinson

Knicks get:
Anthony Davis

I know the argument can be made that Bulls can just get cut out, but I guess it depends on how Pelicans wanna go from here. Lavine would form a nice backcourt duo with Holiday and still end up getting the the pick where there is strong chance someone like Hunter is available. Getting rid of Hill's contract for the year also frees up more money for you to spend on some quality free agents.

Holiday
Lavine
Hunter
Williamson
Robinson

That could be a real nice set up for now and into the future for the Pels.

Bulls get fleeced in that deal. New York does back flips and laughs at this trade. Every team in this trade gets better besides the bulls who take 3 steps back.

You just value Zach Lavine more than I do. He would better suited on a team like that. Option 2b or 3. Secondary creator. Still able to space the floor and let Zion go to work.

It would set the rebuild back about 1-2 years.
Sure we get a potential number 1 option cheaper but for rj to perform at Zach current level is 1 to 2 seasons away realistically.

[rtblues]

Are people forgetting when they tried to let Zach run it?
The turnovers and bad shots were through the roof.
I'd say Zach needs to be a better off-the-ball player, a 2, cause he ain't a 1.
He could also still add some weight/muscle too IMO.

Biggest myth here in this board. Yea when Lavine ran point guard he did turn the ball over but it was because he was getting trippledbteamed and he had no other option. But good things happened when Lavine ran point at times. Lavine got Lauri and Porter so many wide open looks it was Crazy. Teams also had nightmares guarding Lavine in those high ball screens. The turnovers was bad but somebody who faced the type of defensive attention Zach faced is going to turn the ball over. Look at guys like 1)Harden, 2)Westbrook 3) Devin Booker 4) Devin Booker 5) Trae young 6) Antetokounmpo 7) Doncic. All those guys had a turnover rates higher then Lavine and all played on teams that had significantly better offensive talent around them most of the season. Now is Lavine a full time pg? Hell no! But Lavine can definitely be a creator on ball at that posistion in stretches. That’s why a Brogdon would be the perfect fit for the bulls.

Let me put it another way, playing Zach at the 1 doesn't maximize what he is capable of. Just think about him playing the 2 with a true distributor, ideally a good defender as well. That sounds ideal. Now where to get that? Who knows? I'm not down on Zach, just feel he's more of a natural 2 and would thrive there a lot more than as a 1.

[BullsFanInNYC]

FINALLY

Watch on YouTube

His size, his feel, his defense, and finishing - the variables/current unknowns as to why this guy projects him to be a solid rotational player, but not a guy to build around. Sounds like what they said about Steph? His current skill set/game translates very well in the modern NBA. At his age and pedigree (seems like a good kid/ son of an NBA point guard), I'd bet that over time, under the right guidance, that he is able to improve on the feel part of his game, particularly as he gets more experience and where spacing is better in the pro game, that he can become an average defender as he moves well laterally, and I don't really care about his finishing around the hoop - I would want him on the perimeter.