Coronavirus

[whonka]

Trump didn't issue stay at home orders, the Democrat governors did. But I'm sure Trump will get blamed for the resulting 30% unemployment and GDP contraction though if this continues for any length of time.

You cannot shut down your economy without major consequences. Entire sectors are in the process of getting wiped out, yet people here are actively encouraging more shutdowns and stay at home orders. It's not sustainable and will lead to mass unemployment and bankruptcies on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression.

What makes you so sure that the mass deaths associated with no lockdown/quarantine measures will not tank the economy either? Is loss of lives "sustainable"? Will the complete destruction of the current healthcare system/workers (NYC hospitals are already approaching capacity at the current moment and our healthcare workers truth be told are already dying from covid) and people who regularly rely on the healthcare system not affect the economy?

Why are almost all other countries essentially pulling the same measures?

[coldfish]

Trump didn't issue stay at home orders, the Democrat governors did. But I'm sure Trump will get blamed for the resulting 30% unemployment and GDP contraction though if this continues for any length of time.

You cannot shut down your economy without major consequences. Entire sectors are in the process of getting wiped out, yet people here are actively encouraging more shutdowns and stay at home orders. It's not sustainable and will lead to mass unemployment and bankruptcies on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression.

What makes you so sure that the mass deaths associated with no lockdown/quarantine measures will not tank the economy either? Is loss of lives "sustainable"?

Why are almost all other countries essentially pulling the same measures?

I don't think people really understand geometric increases

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The US is doubling its today daily deaths every 3 days. We were at 100 yesterday. In a day or so, we will lose more people than US soldiers did on average during WWII. In about 16 days, we will lose more in a day than died on 9/11. In 18 days, we will lose more people than died on D-day. In 3 weeks, we will be losing over 12,000 people per day.

At some point, it would stop, obviously but I just don't think people get how ugly it would be if 0.2% of the population dies from this over the next 6 months. That's 600,000 people over 180 days. Roughly the equivalent of 9/11 every day for 6 months.

Our economy would be in tatters even if you can bring yourself to ignore the deaths.

[whonka]

I don't think people really understand geometric increases

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

The US is doubling its today daily deaths every 3 days. We were at 100 yesterday. In a day or so, we will lose more people than US soldiers did on average during WWII. In about 16 days, we will lose more in a day than died on 9/11. In 18 days, we will lose more people than died on D-day. In 3 weeks, we will be losing over 12,000 people per day.

At some point, it would stop, obviously but I just don't think people get how ugly it would be if 0.2% of the population dies from this over the next 6 months. That's 600,000 people over 180 days. Roughly the equivalent of 9/11 every day for 6 months.

Our economy would be in tatters even if you can bring yourself to ignore the deaths.

You're right, and I hope advances in medical knowledge can occur enough to mitigate that curve. I want to add one more point though - our healthcare system currently, as of today, is not yet at capacity. We still for now have enough ICU beds and ventilators and doctors (even in NYC) for everyone.

That death curve will not stay on course of the current curve once we go over capacity.

Italy, thankfully, has begun to see a plateauing of their incidence and death over the last 2 days (let's see if it continues or it's just a blip). They initiated a full lockdown on March 9th, which is more than 2 weeks ago, ahead of us on the curve. We, unfortunately, have still not initiated a full lockdown.

[whonka]

On a lighter note:

Read on Twitter

Where are our gangs? Heh

[Fl_Flash]

agree that you should cross check, but not every news service has a political angle to work. in fact, there is only 1 mainstream news organization whose followers are less informed than people who don't actively follow any news source. and i think we know who that is

MSNBC? Huffington Post? CNN?

Nah, but you knew that.

A new study by Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist, top official in the H.W. Bush administration and domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan, concluded that Fox News viewers tend to be less informed and engage in "self-brainwashing."

You can read the study yourself: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2604679

You're funny!

So, because someone has a different economic and political bent than you - they must be brainwashed?
You're so intellectually engaged.

If you can't see that the above "news sources" are slanted to severely slanted towards the left side of the political spectrum, then there's no point in even engaging in conversation. I'm not denying that there is that one "news source" that is slanted to severely slanted towards the right side of the political spectrum - just pointing out that there's plenty of fare on the left for equal brainwashing.

I can see that you're grey matter is squeaky clean.

[AKfanatic]

MSNBC? Huffington Post? CNN?

Nah, but you knew that.

A new study by Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist, top official in the H.W. Bush administration and domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan, concluded that Fox News viewers tend to be less informed and engage in "self-brainwashing."

You can read the study yourself: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2604679

You're funny!

So, because someone has a different economic and political bent than you - they must be brainwashed?
You're so intellectually engaged.

If you can't see that the above "news sources" are slanted to severely slanted towards the left side of the political spectrum, then there's no point in even engaging in conversation. I'm not denying that there is that one "news source" that is slanted to severely slanted towards the right side of the political spectrum - just pointing out that there's plenty of fare on the left for equal brainwashing.

I can see that you're grey matter is squeaky clean.

There’s a massive difference between a slant and what is often outright falsehoods and propaganda by “news” sources to benefit their preferred political party. The Fox News, Brietbarts, OANN’s of the world aren’t propaganda because they have differing economic or political views, they are often propaganda because it’s the tactic they use.

Look at the way Fox has covered the virus from January through February, minus a minority of their hosts....Hannity, Ingraham, Fox and Friends, Dobbs, etc all played the Dem hoax angle... until suddenly they couldn’t and then they shifted to heaping praise on Trump and rewriting the history of his response.

Look back at Fox speaking of Obama golfing, wearing a suit, misspeaking when it was an obvious mistake of words... now view their ignoring of Trump golfing much more, at his own properties, charging tax payers for his own gain, how they double down and parrot blatant lies...

Calling it all equal between network is BS. McConnell, Trump, Cheney, Murdoch, have all done their part to make sure their “truth” is brought to the masses and painted anyone who dare speak the truth as leftist American haters. Pointing out that the emperor’s clothes are non existent isn’t a political slant....

[League Circles]

Nah, but you knew that.



You can read the study yourself: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2604679

You're funny!

So, because someone has a different economic and political bent than you - they must be brainwashed?
You're so intellectually engaged.

If you can't see that the above "news sources" are slanted to severely slanted towards the left side of the political spectrum, then there's no point in even engaging in conversation. I'm not denying that there is that one "news source" that is slanted to severely slanted towards the right side of the political spectrum - just pointing out that there's plenty of fare on the left for equal brainwashing.

I can see that you're grey matter is squeaky clean.

There’s a massive difference between a slant and what is often outright falsehoods and propaganda by “news” sources to benefit their preferred political party. The Fox News, Brietbarts, OANN’s of the world aren’t propaganda because they have differing economic or political views, they are often propaganda because it’s the tactic they use.

Look at the way Fox has covered the virus from January through February, minus a minority of their hosts....Hannity, Ingraham, Fox and Friends, Dobbs, etc all played the Dem hoax angle... until suddenly they couldn’t and then they shifted to heaping praise on Trump and rewriting the history of his response.

Look back at Fox speaking of Obama golfing, wearing a suit, misspeaking when it was an obvious mistake of words... now view their ignoring of Trump golfing much more, at his own properties, charging tax payers for his own gain, how they double down and parrot blatant lies...

Calling it all equal between network is BS. McConnell, Trump, Cheney, Murdoch, have all done their part to make sure their “truth” is brought to the masses and painted anyone who dare speak the truth as leftist American haters. Pointing out that the emperor’s clothes are non existent isn’t a political slant....

Man Fox, CNN, MSNBC etc are all infotainment. They're not remotely primary news sources IMO. News sources are things like CSPAN, House and Senate minutes, etc. In other words most people aren't interested in news. News can be pretty boring and complex.

[Fl_Flash]

There’s a massive difference between a slant and what is often outright falsehoods and propaganda by “news” sources to benefit their preferred political party. The Fox News, Brietbarts, OANN’s of the world aren’t propaganda because they have differing economic or political views, they are often propaganda because it’s the tactic they use.

Look at the way Fox has covered the virus from January through February, minus a minority of their hosts....Hannity, Ingraham, Fox and Friends, Dobbs, etc all played the Dem hoax angle... until suddenly they couldn’t and then they shifted to heaping praise on Trump and rewriting the history of his response.

Look back at Fox speaking of Obama golfing, wearing a suit, misspeaking when it was an obvious mistake of words... now view their ignoring of Trump golfing much more, at his own properties, charging tax payers for his own gain, how they double down and parrot blatant lies...

Calling it all equal between network is BS. McConnell, Trump, Cheney, Murdoch, have all done their part to make sure their “truth” is brought to the masses and painted anyone who dare speak the truth as leftist American haters. Pointing out that the emperor’s clothes are non existent isn’t a political slant....

I get where you're coming from. I think you miss that the left news media has done\is doing the same thing.

Before Trump had even taken office, the above "news sources" were resplendent with proclamations of doom and gloom. I remember when Obama got elected - Diane Sawyer was blind stinking drunk and giddy over Obama being elected - but there's no slant there. She's just reporting the news with no bias.

Unfortunately, we have become a nation of political extremists. Both side lobbing bombs at the other and neither is doing the nation any good. The dems control congress, the republicans obstruct. The reps. control congress, the dems obstruct.

I think that you possibly view the "right" as being far more egregious simply because you agree with alot of what comes from the left news media. I'm not stating that's wrong. Just an observation. Again, both sides look at the other and shout "propaganda!" "Brainwashers!" There's plenty to go around.

[Nikola]

Trump didn't issue stay at home orders, the Democrat governors did. But I'm sure Trump will get blamed for the resulting 30% unemployment and GDP contraction though if this continues for any length of time.

You cannot shut down your economy without major consequences. Entire sectors are in the process of getting wiped out, yet people here are actively encouraging more shutdowns and stay at home orders. It's not sustainable and will lead to mass unemployment and bankruptcies on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression.

What makes you so sure that the mass deaths associated with no lockdown/quarantine measures will not tank the economy either? Is loss of lives "sustainable"? Will the complete destruction of the current healthcare system/workers (NYC hospitals are already approaching capacity at the current moment and our healthcare workers truth be told are already dying from covid) and people who regularly rely on the healthcare system not affect the economy?

Why are almost all other countries essentially pulling the same measures?

Another thing not being discussed very much is the fact that the economy was already in a big bubble before the virus.

[moorhosj]

You're funny!

So, because someone has a different economic and political bent than you - they must be brainwashed?
You're so intellectually engaged.

If you can't see that the above "news sources" are slanted to severely slanted towards the left side of the political spectrum, then there's no point in even engaging in conversation. I'm not denying that there is that one "news source" that is slanted to severely slanted towards the right side of the political spectrum - just pointing out that there's plenty of fare on the left for equal brainwashing.

I can see that you're grey matter is squeaky clean.

Not sure why a study done by a Republican shows I have some political bent. That Fox News is spreading misinformation is nothing new. Just yesterday we got this news

Man dies after ingesting chloroquine in an attempt to prevent coronavirus

Where did they get the idea that chloroquine would prevent coronavirus? Listening to the President of course [1] [2]:

The man's wife told NBC News she'd watched televised briefings during which President Trump talked about the potential benefits of chloroquine. Even though no drugs are approved to prevent or treat COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, some early research suggests it may be useful as a therapy.

Fox News also helped spread this theory by hosting the author of the original paper, Gregory Rigano [3] and giving this dangerous idea a platform. They blamed the "media" for creating this hoax for months. Now that they've caught up to the severity, the "media" is still somehow at fault. It's like blaming the "Deep State" when you've been in power for three years.

Do other media sources suck? Yes. They will chase anything that gets them clicks and focus on palace intrigue over substance. Are they actively promoting dangerous conspiracy theories? No. To me, there's a clear distinction.

Calling that out doesn't speak to my political beliefs. One can like democracy without supporting family members in the administration, the refusal to use a blind trust, or defying subpoenas. One can love the constitution and still want daily press briefings and public White House visitor records. One can support free markets without thinking tariffs are the answer. One can support capitalism while asking if things like healthcare and education are less effective with a profit motive. One can believe in strong foreign policy without thinking that should be leverage for dirt on political opponents. One can want a better immigration policy without supporting separating families, eminent domain, or ignoring the companies who employ undocumented.

[1] NBC News version: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/man-dies-after-ingesting-chloroquine-attempt-prevent-coronavirus-n1167166
[2] Fox News version: https://www.foxnews.com/health/arizona-man-dies-after-taking-drug-chloroquine-coronavirus
[3] Gregory Rigano interview: https://video.foxnews.com/v/6142886572001#sp=show-clips

[dougthonus]

If you want to talk politics please take it to the current affairs forum. I realize there are some political pieces that are attached to this, but let's not turn this into a wide debate about Trump or News outlets or Republicans vs Democrats.

If there is a political component to this that is new (ie, something Trump tweets today, or some news today) then that's fair game, but let's not go back into political history here. You can do that on the current affairs forum if you want.

[TallDude]

If you want to talk politics please take it to the current affairs forum. I realize there are some political pieces that are attached to this, but let's not turn this into a wide debate about Trump or News outlets or Republicans vs Democrats.

If there is a political component to this that is new (ie, something Trump tweets today, or some news today) then that's fair game, but let's not go back into political history here. You can do that on the current affairs forum if you want.

Agreed. I think political site should be different. Even economy is not relevant. This should be page only for corona virus. Of course it effect basically... well everything. I mostly ignore 90% of posts now and there are many who don`t even come here because this is mostly out of topic. In Finland we are now moving isolation. Southern part of Finland is separated rest of the Finland soon. Population 1,7million.

[Ccwatercraft]

If you want to talk politics please take it to the current affairs forum. I realize there are some political pieces that are attached to this, but let's not turn this into a wide debate about Trump or News outlets or Republicans vs Democrats.

If there is a political component to this that is new (ie, something Trump tweets today, or some news today) then that's fair game, but let's not go back into political history here. You can do that on the current affairs forum if you want.

yes please and thank you, over in CA there is tons of Trump bashing going on, to the point where its unreadable IMO but some seem to enjoy it. I decided that taking a few months off of that section was a good idea so I'm participating over on this end in the hopes that people can stay focused.

[Dresden]

I was literally hit by a truck. Fell back really hard. At the time, adrenaline flowing, I felt alright... it was hours later that I couldn’t stand. Had a pretty serious procedure on my spine, but still have issues. Oh yeah, migraines.... I’ve had them my entire life, normally once or twice a month (sometimes lasting days) but that’s actually my biggest issue now. I can live with the pain I’m in daily, but it sets off migraines every other day that completely immobilize me.

yikes. hope this process makes things better for ya

Thanks Dice.... I’m hoping so. It’s been an extremely long process (over 2 years) but the doctors seem to be really keying in on an area that’s been giving me issues. Took over a year to get them to take a real look and do some tests....

before they finally got to the point where they were like “hmm C6-C7, doesn’t look like it should”... me “where’s C6-C7?”... doctor touching me “here”... “oh, you mean in the area that I’ve been telling you I’ve had severe pain for well over a year? Go figure”

Feels like I’m on a good path to some sort of pain management or worst case, surgery that will allow me to get back to some form of living.

Sorry to hear about that AK. I hope they can find some relief for you. I can't imagine getting a migraine every other day. Has any sort of chiropractic adjustment or physical therapy offered any hope?

[Dresden]

Well we all need some positive news, last Sunday I stopped in at Aldis, and the shelves were more stocked than I had seen them in the previous week. I was actually able to walk out with what I planned to get.

I don't think people should be trying to push political agendas in this time, and that goes for both sides, In times like this people need to put there views aside, and work towards coming together.

It may be easier said than done, but to be honest both parties have taken extreme opposite view points. I think most people want to meet somewhere in the middle, but each political party does not want to give up a inch of ground and that is a problem.

I get ur point but i disagree. This is the exact time to act politically. The reality is that politics effect everything and the choices matter. We shouldnt ignore what politicians are doing right now.

I tend to agree. It's important to be fair, but it's also important that our media keeps us informed about what is and isn't being done to manage this crisis, and to let us know when our leaders are failing us. When you have the president telling people that anyone can get a test that wants one, or that he hasn't heard of anyone having trouble getting a test, when meanwhile, you have all kinds of public health officials and epidemiologists just screaming that we need more testing, that's just a gross failure of leadership, and people need to call it out for what it is, not just shrug it off with "that's just Donald being Donald".

[Bandit King]

yes, go say it the CA forum.

[DuckIII]

Edit - I agree with Doug. My bad.

[Dresden]

Trump didn't issue stay at home orders, the Democrat governors did. But I'm sure Trump will get blamed for the resulting 30% unemployment and GDP contraction though if this continues for any length of time.

You cannot shut down your economy without major consequences. Entire sectors are in the process of getting wiped out, yet people here are actively encouraging more shutdowns and stay at home orders. It's not sustainable and will lead to mass unemployment and bankruptcies on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression.

What makes you so sure that the mass deaths associated with no lockdown/quarantine measures will not tank the economy either? Is loss of lives "sustainable"? Will the complete destruction of the current healthcare system/workers (NYC hospitals are already approaching capacity at the current moment and our healthcare workers truth be told are already dying from covid) and people who regularly rely on the healthcare system not affect the economy?

Why are almost all other countries essentially pulling the same measures?

This is true, and I think almost every expert in infectious disease is aligned on this- if you don't do a lockdown, you will still have a massive economic meltdown when people get sick and out of work. Only now you've added a medical catastrophe on top of it.

The key is to shut things down long enough that you can test everyone who is sick or in contact with someone who is sick, then quarantine those people. Without testing, a lockdown won't accomplish that much- it will still explode once it is lifted.

Here is one of the best articles I've come across on all aspects of the pandemic, from one of The WHO"s top officials:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-ever-away-heres-one-094824995.html

[Bandit King]

Either way the economy is tanked! At least quarantined people will reduce the death toll.

If you let people work and 2 million die the economy still tanks!

The government can just print money like it always does while we recover and spend our stimulus money.

[MrSparkle]

Either way the economy is tanked! At least quarantined people will reduce the death toll.

If you let people work and 2 million die the economy still tanks!

The government can just print money like it always does while we recover and spend our stimulus money.

Yeah. Right now there are three points of short-term concern:

#1 Staying healthy. Worse yet; Staying alive.

#2 Maintaining income and health insurance during a health crisis. Lot of people have lost their jobs and both of those. More are coming.

#3. Keeping your job beyond May, or finding a new one in a tough recession.

I’ve never looked less forward to a Chicago summer.