OT- The Last Dance documentary

[dougthonus]

After watching the last dance the big take away for me is the role Reinsdorf played in everything. Really at his heart JR is a cheap landlord and always will be. I know he's said, "pay the player what they are worth" and "he'll pay for a winner" but in reality those where just cop-outs.

Reinsdorf used Krause as his proxy to low ball that entire Bulls team from Pippen to Phil Jackson even Jordan while he could. A lot of Krause's media interviews and such were all a well orchestrated shell game to make JR look like he was the abstinence owner who just showed up at the 11th hour because he didn't care what it took(read:costed) to get Jordan/Jackson etc back and bring the band together!

This man had money pouring out of his eyeballs during the Bulls dynasty and at the end of the day he still wouldn't pony up, this dude is a fraud, and as far as Im concerned no Reinsdorf period, not his son, not his grandson is to be trust to build the Bulls up to a true contender again.

How many times have the Bulls bulked at making a big move to save a few shekels 2011 when the Bulls obviously needed a 2 guard, 2008/2007 when the Bulls had legit chances at landing Gasol and possibly even Kobe Bryant, 2009 when they balked at giving Gordon a contract but magically the white sox had a very, very similar amount of money to give to Alex Rios.

Youre all rooting for your owners 2nd favorite team boys, Reinsdorf doesn't care about the Bulls and he never did.

I'd trade all six Bulls championships for one Whitesox championships.

Not sure why you think your so thoughts are so special that you can't put it in the gigantic stickied thread where many others have already said more or less the same thing so merged it into the main thread.

[2018C3]

The Bulls were over the cap for each championship team after the 1990/91 season.

Here are the actual figures:

1991 NBA Salary Cap $11,871,000, Bulls Team Salary = $10,040,000
$1,831,000 Under Cap

1992 NBA Salary Cap $12,500,000, Bulls Team Salary = $16,829,000
$4,329,000 Over Cap[/i]

1993 NBA Salary Cap $15,175,000, Bulls Team Salary = $18,536,000
[i]$3,361,000 Over Cap

1996 NBA Salary Cap $23,000,000, Bulls Team Salary = $23,512,000
$512,000 Over Cap

1997 NBA Salary Cap $24,363,000, Bulls Team Salary = $58,270,000
$33,907,000 Over Cap

1998 NBA Salary Cap $26,900,000, Bulls Team Salary = $61,330,670
$34,430,670 Over Cap

In the 1996/97, and 1997/98 Seasons They were so far over cap that the team salaries more than doubled what the cap was set at.

[prolific passer]

In the end. Reinsdorf was just your classic cheap owner who didn't want to pay his players. For both his teams.

[The Box Office]

I loved The Last Dance.

The outcome from this and OJ Simpson's "Made in America" is mostly positive. There will be permanent ramifications from these 2 docuseries that is exciting to see. Yes, that's including "Tiger King" series, which I can only stomach the first episode. After that, I lost interest.

The Last Dance should be nominated for an Oscar. It's extremely well made and tons of time was put in to crafting this. MJ, Pip, Rodman, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, John Paxson, Will Purdue, Toni Kukoc, Bill Wennington, and Phil Jackson should attend Oscar night. The Oscars will guarantee them the Oscar. Because the Oscars need the publicity and spectacle. Horace Grant should attend, too. So that Horace can get his wish right at the Red Carpet. LMAO. He wants to settle with MJ like men, right? Ok here is his shot. Depends on the Covid 19 situation in March 2021 though.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_last_dance/s01
It's getting 95% FRESH rating. That's great.

I'm fine with Michael Jordan holding the strings to do this. And I don't care. Just to see him and hear his voice are good enough actually talking and confirming stuff from The Jordan Rules. The Kobe fans are not going to get that when they attempt to do their documentary, which is tragic.

No other superstar, in all of sports, was covered like this. MJ Bulls is definitely The Beatles of the 1990s. People are still debating over the Beatles' break up. And people here are still debating the Bulls' break up. I'm extremely happy that I lived it AS IT HAPPENED LIVE. That's crazy to me.

The LeBron stans needed to be schooled. The younger fans needed an education. We all got it. I want an addition to The Last Dance. That's Tinker Hatfield. Here is a well made short documentary about him.

Watch on YouTube

[troza]

The Bulls were over the cap for each championship team after the 1990/91 season.

Here are the actual figures:

1991 NBA Salary Cap $11,871,000, Bulls Team Salary = $10,040,000
$1,831,000 Under Cap

1992 NBA Salary Cap $12,500,000, Bulls Team Salary = $16,829,000
$4,329,000 Over Cap[/i]

1993 NBA Salary Cap $15,175,000, Bulls Team Salary = $18,536,000
[i]$3,361,000 Over Cap

1996 NBA Salary Cap $23,000,000, Bulls Team Salary = $23,512,000
$512,000 Over Cap

1997 NBA Salary Cap $24,363,000, Bulls Team Salary = $58,270,000
$33,907,000 Over Cap

1998 NBA Salary Cap $26,900,000, Bulls Team Salary = $61,330,670
$34,430,670 Over Cap

In the 1996/97, and 1997/98 Seasons They were so far over cap that the team salaries more than doubled what the cap was set at.

In the end. Reinsdorf was just your classic cheap owner who didn't want to pay his players. For both his teams.

I didn't check the information but it is just me or it is really funny to see these two posts in a row in this thread?

I will say this: Reinsdorf might have the reputation for being cheap for things he did later but there are tons of evidence that he paid back at that time. Of course he was getting even more money but that's besides the point.

[chitownsalesmen]

After watching the last dance the big take away for me is the role Reinsdorf played in everything. Really at his heart JR is a cheap landlord and always will be. I know he's said, "pay the player what they are worth" and "he'll pay for a winner" but in reality those where just cop-outs.

Reinsdorf used Krause as his proxy to low ball that entire Bulls team from Pippen to Phil Jackson even Jordan while he could. A lot of Krause's media interviews and such were all a well orchestrated shell game to make JR look like he was the abstinence owner who just showed up at the 11th hour because he didn't care what it took(read:costed) to get Jordan/Jackson etc back and bring the band together!

This man had money pouring out of his eyeballs during the Bulls dynasty and at the end of the day he still wouldn't pony up, this dude is a fraud, and as far as Im concerned no Reinsdorf period, not his son, not his grandson is to be trust to build the Bulls up to a true contender again.

How many times have the Bulls bulked at making a big move to save a few shekels 2011 when the Bulls obviously needed a 2 guard, 2008/2007 when the Bulls had legit chances at landing Gasol and possibly even Kobe Bryant, 2009 when they balked at giving Gordon a contract but magically the white sox had a very, very similar amount of money to give to Alex Rios.

Youre all rooting for your owners 2nd favorite team boys, Reinsdorf doesn't care about the Bulls and he never did.

I'd trade all six Bulls championships for one Whitesox championships.

Not sure why you think your so thoughts are so special that you can't put it in the gigantic stickied thread where many others have already said more or less the same thing so merged it into the main thread.

Jesus doug missed the thread, not sure why your so think you can lord over my simple oversight so like such a ****

[chitownsalesmen]

You're amusingly arrogant for absolutely no reason.

Why is Reinsdorf responsible for Pippen signing a deal that underpays him?

Sorry you need to address the earlier point first then you can progress along the main campaign, side quests become available as you progress.

So basically you don't have an answer? The answer is, Reinsdorf isn't responsible for Pippen locking himself into a contract below his value.

Sorry you need to address the earlier point first then you can progress along the main campaign, side quests become available as you progress.

[dougthonus]

I loved The Last Dance.

The outcome from this and OJ Simpson's "Made in America" is mostly positive. There will be permanent ramifications from these 2 docuseries that is exciting to see. Yes, that's including "Tiger King" series, which I can only stomach the first episode. After that, I lost interest.

Haven't watched Made in America, but I will probably take a look. Just watched the Vick 30 for 30, and it just made me angry how much he got railroaded. I remember thinking it at the time and getting totally lambasted for that opinion. Wonder where people stand now.

Tiger King strikes me as a different note, it's more of a reality TV show masquerading as a docuseries.

[prolific passer]

I loved The Last Dance.

The outcome from this and OJ Simpson's "Made in America" is mostly positive. There will be permanent ramifications from these 2 docuseries that is exciting to see. Yes, that's including "Tiger King" series, which I can only stomach the first episode. After that, I lost interest.

Haven't watched Made in America, but I will probably take a look. Just watched the Vick 30 for 30, and it just made me angry how much he got railroaded. I remember thinking it at the time and getting totally lambasted for that opinion. Wonder where people stand now.

Tiger King strikes me as a different note, it's more of a reality TV show masquerading as a docuseries.

The 98 home run race 30 for 30 will be the next one I watch.

[ATRAIN53]

I loved The Last Dance.

The outcome from this and OJ Simpson's "Made in America" is mostly positive. There will be permanent ramifications from these 2 docuseries that is exciting to see. Yes, that's including "Tiger King" series, which I can only stomach the first episode. After that, I lost interest.

The Last Dance should be nominated for an Oscar. It's extremely well made and tons of time was put in to crafting this. MJ, Pip, Rodman, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, John Paxson, Will Purdue, Toni Kukoc, Bill Wennington, and Phil Jackson should attend Oscar night. The Oscars will guarantee them the Oscar. Because the Oscars need the publicity and spectacle. Horace Grant should attend, too. So that Horace can get his wish right at the Red Carpet. LMAO. He wants to settle with MJ like men, right? Ok here is his shot. Depends on the Covid 19 situation in March 2021 though.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_last_dance/s01
It's getting 95% FRESH rating. That's great.

I'm fine with Michael Jordan holding the strings to do this. And I don't care. Just to see him and hear his voice are good enough actually talking and confirming stuff from The Jordan Rules. The Kobe fans are not going to get that when they attempt to do their documentary, which is tragic.

No other superstar, in all of sports, was covered like this. MJ Bulls is definitely The Beatles of the 1990s. People are still debating over the Beatles' break up. And people here are still debating the Bulls' break up. I'm extremely happy that I lived it AS IT HAPPENED LIVE. That's crazy to me.

The LeBron stans needed to be schooled. The younger fans needed an education. We all got it. I want an addition to The Last Dance. That's Tinker Hatfield. Here is a well made short documentary about him.

Watch on YouTube

I love your review and mostly agree.

Having just lost Kobe so tragically - I watched this thinking what if this is the last interview MJ ever does.
Is this enough for me, did I learn what I wanted?

I don't think I learned too much I didn't know, a coupe of tidbits like the LaBradford Game, the Poison Pizza

Leading up to this for years Bill Simmons has bragged that he knew this footage existed. He was like HOURS of MJ filmed just raw doing all those things we heard rumors of - they have this on film.

So 10 hours of this documentry, I was hoping for like some good 20 min chunks of practices or bus rides and them showing us just normal unedited raw footage.

and we saw some teases of it - but you can tell this whole thing was edited and pretty watered down.
I dunno if MJ nixed the good footage, but I feel like they had a lot more great footage that got cut short.

I guess I really wanted more daily 1998 stuff than the whole MJ history.

The worst part to me -

They never showed current MJ happy or similing or laughing. Is he happy?
Could we have got 5 min with his new wife and kids and showing him be Dad MJ 2020
What about Marcus or Jeffery, not one current interview with them?

It came off to me as 1/2 MJ Documentry and then 1/2 a tease of what i know they really have of that 1998 footage I was hoping to see...

[2018C3]

I have only made it up to episode 4 I think, but have liked what I have seen so far. My final conclusion will be made after I get a chance to watch the whole series.

I do not pay for cable TV, so I have to sneak in on demand opportunities to watch when my parents leave on vacation, and ask me to check on their house.

I could see how it could be somewhat frustrating with how it jumps around, and this might make it a bit difficult to watch for someone who did not live though that era.

For those of us who did live in that era, it's probably a lot easier to follow all the time line jumps, as it is just refreshing our memory to all the events that happened.

[TheStig]

Phil and MJ weren't egregious cases. Pippen however, was low balled hard as f***, twice. People regard Pippen's contract with the bulls as equivalent to Steph Curry's cheap contract that allowed the Warriors to get Durant in 2016, not perfect as the spike happened etc but it's similar and Jerry did it to him twice. I'm going to be forced to disregard your point as the dude wasn't even in top 50 of NBA salaries despite being arguably top 5/top 10 player at times he was unequivocally low-balled.

At least Steph's deal was only 4 years. Pippen's was nearly twice that and he didn't have anywhere near the endorsements Steph did.

But MJ was on only a slightly better deal but it expired and he was able to cash in the last 2 years and had great endorsements.

I'm also sure Phil was making peanuts till he got his new deal the last 2 years.

I don't think it's low balling per say because they chose the long term security and that was good money at the time they were signed but JR could have given them all extensions a year early since he had them on great deals up until then. That's what led to Pip delaying his surgery and demanding a trade.

Yeah see we disagree with how we define JR but your acknowledging the reality of what happened, regardless of how you define it. I can see if you say, well, "Reinsdorf wasn't "low-balling." but he was perhaps "price-conscious." Or however you wanna define it.

I actually never said JR lowballed Pippen. I even began one of my points by saying I don't think it's lowballing.Please read my message again.

[chitownsalesmen]

At least Steph's deal was only 4 years. Pippen's was nearly twice that and he didn't have anywhere near the endorsements Steph did.

But MJ was on only a slightly better deal but it expired and he was able to cash in the last 2 years and had great endorsements.

I'm also sure Phil was making peanuts till he got his new deal the last 2 years.

I don't think it's low balling per say because they chose the long term security and that was good money at the time they were signed but JR could have given them all extensions a year early since he had them on great deals up until then. That's what led to Pip delaying his surgery and demanding a trade.

Yeah see we disagree with how we define JR but your acknowledging the reality of what happened, regardless of how you define it. I can see if you say, well, "Reinsdorf wasn't "low-balling." but he was perhaps "price-conscious." Or however you wanna define it.

I actually never said JR lowballed Pippen. I even began one of my points by saying I don't think it's lowballing.Please read my message again.

uhh reread my guy

[TheStig]

Yeah see we disagree with how we define JR but your acknowledging the reality of what happened, regardless of how you define it. I can see if you say, well, "Reinsdorf wasn't "low-balling." but he was perhaps "price-conscious." Or however you wanna define it.

I actually never said JR lowballed Pippen. I even began one of my points by saying I don't think it's lowballing.Please read my message again.

uhh reread my guy

I called him cheap just like you.....

[chitownsalesmen]

I actually never said JR lowballed Pippen. I even began one of my points by saying I don't think it's lowballing.Please read my message again.

uhh reread my guy

I called him cheap just like you.....

right and I said I can at least admit me and you live on the same planet vs. some of the other responses I got.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I see a lot of people still actively frustrated/angry about JR/Krause's actions in breaking up the dynasty. While there is certainly an argument to be made that they were wrong for doing so, I find myself struggling to really feel upset about it. For me, I had a different feeling watching the end of this documentary. My feeling was, how lucky were we as a fanbase that we got to watch the greatest player of all time, that we got watch one of the greatest dynasties of all time, that we got to enjoy six championships, that we go to experience all of that? Most fans of most teams in most sports will never get experience anything like that. We shouldn't take it for granted.

So I just find it difficult to complain about anything as it pertains the dynasty. We got a storybook ending anyway.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

I see a lot of people still actively frustrated/angry about JR/Krause's actions in breaking up the dynasty. While there is certainly an argument to be made that they were wrong for doing so, I find myself struggling to really feel upset about it. For me, I had a different feeling watching the end of this documentary. My feeling was, how lucky were we as a fanbase that we got to watch the greatest player of all time, that we got watch one of the greatest dynasties of all time, that we got to enjoy six championships, that we go to experience all of that? Most fans of most teams in most sports will never get experience anything like that. We shouldn't take it for granted.

So I just find it difficult to complain about anything as it pertains the dynasty. We got a storybook ending anyway.

Yea, its a bit poetic in some ways. Krause preferred to end it a year too early than a year too late, if he had a choice. MJ and perhaps other players would have rather it ended it a year too late (and Phil somewhere in the middle). As fans we likely ended it at the "perfect" time with that story book ending. Hell, even if the Bulls had won in 99, the manner in which they won was like it was written by a damn Hollywood screenwriter. Just a perfect way to see it come to a conclusion - dagger by MJ, fade to black, (forget MJ Washington ever happened).

And no team is likely to face the same question/circumstance again. Its easy to forget now the Bulls were the first dynasty to come together entirely in the unrestricted Free Agency era. Before that, there weren't so many dynamics at play in team building/retention. The 80s dynasty had basically the equivalent of RFA today, only, and before that there was no FA at all. And in the current environment where most deals are capped at 4 years in length, its just so unlikely that a team could sustain a 8 year window and take advantage of the 8 year contracts like the Bulls did in 96-98. Dynasties are shorter term and perhaps you have two guys you can build around as a core (maxed at about 60-70% of your cap) and the expectation is you will eventually tear it down around those guys. Jordan's attitude is very much a holdover from a pre-FA era where the team was basically the team, other than trades. And MJs insane contract that was 100%+ of the salary cap and helped to usher in max contracts. Just a really unique situation stuck in the middle of two drastically different eras of team building. And in many ways it was management/owners and players/coaches living that real life struggle that would get further negotiated in subsequent CBAs to what we have today.

[Dan Z]

Does anyone remember when Horace Grant left the Bulls? I was a kid, but remember being disappointed that he left. I knew the Bulls would miss his rebounding and defense.

At that point I wrote him off because he left a great situation. However looking back I completely understand why he did it (it that was a big contract for that time).

[Michael Jackson]

I see a lot of people still actively frustrated/angry about JR/Krause's actions in breaking up the dynasty. While there is certainly an argument to be made that they were wrong for doing so, I find myself struggling to really feel upset about it. For me, I had a different feeling watching the end of this documentary. My feeling was, how lucky were we as a fanbase that we got to watch the greatest player of all time, that we got watch one of the greatest dynasties of all time, that we got to enjoy six championships, that we go to experience all of that? Most fans of most teams in most sports will never get experience anything like that. We shouldn't take it for granted.

So I just find it difficult to complain about anything as it pertains the dynasty. We got a storybook ending anyway.

Yea, its a bit poetic in some ways. Krause preferred to end it a year too early than a year too late, if he had a choice. MJ and perhaps other players would have rather it ended it a year too late (and Phil somewhere in the middle). As fans we likely ended it at the "perfect" time with that story book ending. Hell, even if the Bulls had won in 99, the manner in which they won was like it was written by a damn Hollywood screenwriter. Just a perfect way to see it come to a conclusion - dagger by MJ, fade to black, (forget MJ Washington ever happened).

And no team is likely to face the same question/circumstance again. Its easy to forget now the Bulls were the first dynasty to come together entirely in the unrestricted Free Agency era. Before that, there weren't so many dynamics at play in team building/retention. The 80s dynasty had basically the equivalent of RFA today, only, and before that there was no FA at all. And in the current environment where most deals are capped at 4 years in length, its just so unlikely that a team could sustain a 8 year window and take advantage of the 8 year contracts like the Bulls did in 96-98. Dynasties are shorter term and perhaps you have two guys you can build around as a core (maxed at about 60-70% of your cap) and the expectation is you will eventually tear it down around those guys. Jordan's attitude is very much a holdover from a pre-FA era where the team was basically the team, other than trades. And MJs insane contract that was 100%+ of the salary cap and helped to usher in max contracts. Just a really unique situation stuck in the middle of two drastically different eras of team building. And in many ways it was management/owners and players/coaches living that real life struggle that would get further negotiated in subsequent CBAs to what we have today.

Clearly one more run would have been fun, but this was a very unique structure as mentioned. Phil was done though. He was going through a divorce and was not wanting to come back, he couldn’t go through a divorce and work with Krause. Pippen was not coming back either. They did Pip right. Ideally if Krause got his dream and got TMac for Pippen this whole thing looks different but they don’t have a second 3 peat but may end up with as many rings or maybe more in the end and don’t fall into the doldrums. At the time, and in books like Blood in the Horns, Phil was NOT coming back. Plus he got to take that year off settle his personal life and get into what was a real good situation in LA.

[Michael Jackson]

Does anyone remember when Horace Grant left the Bulls? I was a kid, but remember being disappointed that he left. I knew the Bulls would miss his rebounding and defense.

At that point I wrote him off because he left a great situation. However looking back I completely understand why he did it (it that was a big contract for that time).

He left a great situation but honestly went to a better one. Penny and Shaq was better than a Jordanless Bulls team. He did what FA’s do today but it wasn’t as common back then so it felt insulting.