Tribune: Thibodeau stresses players should play if .....

[LVBrian]

The owners are paying these players MILLIONS to PLAY. The constant whining by some of you guys is SO annoying.

been with us 2 days, and we have worn you out in 48 hours. Unless...........[/quote


12 hours, and like I said, I'm okay with Rip. He's old and not gonna make it through this compacted season. The rest of those players need to play. I stated what the Bulls are doing....doesn't mean I agree with it. Just Rip.

[LVBrian]

I just his age, and importance to the team, are huge factors. Rip fit in right away. Like he's been with the team for years. Nothing to worry about. I bet he's back during the upcoming homestand.

If I were to accept your theory (I don't), I would have to accept that the FO, the medical staff, and Rip are all lying to Thibs about it. There's simply no way Thibs would permit that.

Here's what happened to Rip:

He wasn't fully healthy. He played. He reaggravated his injury. He wasn't fully healthy. He played. He reaggravated his injury. He wasn't fully healthy. He played. he reaggravated his injury.

Finally, the Bulls (including Thibs) realized how stupid this approach was and decided to rest him until he's 100%.


Lol sheep.

In other words, the philosophy of "If he's cleared to play and wants to play, then he should play" completely failed. Numerous times.

The owners are paying these players MILLIONS to PLAY. The constant whining by some of you guys is SO annoying.

been with us 2 days, and we have worn you out in 48 hours. Unless...........

[LVBrian]

Lol. Sheep.

[micromonkey]

The MPG of Duncan (around 39) staying steady until he's 28 would show he's playing most of the game or a full game and the large point diff those years would mean a number of blowouts.
Quick scan of a score that looked like last night in 1999
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10SAS.html
85-64 21 pt win over DET Duncan 38 mins
Probably not injured but I have no idea how I’d check. But he’s not pulling starters—which we get calls for even if no one is hurt—because they might get hurt!
Here is a better example from the next season (Robinson who is 34 apparently coming back after back ache)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/199 ... an-antonio
SAN ANTONIO - David Robinson is proving his aching back is getting better. The veteran center scored 19 points, and Tim Duncan scored 15 points and grabbed 14 rebounds as the San Antonio Spurs defeated the Golden State Warriors 104-81.
``I'm starting to feel good again,'' Robinson said. ``My body is starting to bounce around again. My back feels fine.''
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40SAS.html
104-81 Spurs (I’m going out on a limb to say GSW sucked without checking)
Robinson 25 mins (1 less than Rose last night).
Apples to apples—no way to ever know—but its pretty darn close.
My point about Pop is that it’s GOSPEL that he rests guys and Thibs is a slave-driver. Pops has an older team NOW so he’s managing minute’s way differently than we would (and differently than he did with his star players when they were younger).

But do you really think that Rose sitting out against the Hornets (or Bobcats) would really all of a sudden turn him into a giant p*ssy? You think that he would all of a sudden forget how to play through pain?

No but I’d argue that if he's going to be super elite over his career he's going to have to play through it like the kobesystem does. I’d also argue I doubt it’d make it any worse—both are not provable but you are assuming that rest necessarily makes it better as opposed to me arguing that not playing just subjects him to less pain—he’ll ultimately heal his back in the same time no matter what. 26 or even 36 mins of basketball will not matter.

I can't personally speak of back spasms as the worst I got to do if I have a pull my back is pick up my kids or shovel snow (let’s be honest here--not a big deal)—I’m not an elite athlete and I think any personal experience with stuff will only tell us how tough the pros are.

They are getting EMS and “treatment” / meds and those guys in that kind of shape have to play through it as long as it isn’t degenerative.

I don’t think back spasms or turf-toe are career threatening is
sues like knees and Achilles. Again I’d be balled up like a baby but the reason Kobe and hopefully Rose play through it is because of mental toughness and let’s be honest good treatment and drugs.

Unless it’s a herniated disc or something similar it’s a not necessarily going to get worse. If they clear the $95M dollar man I’m guessing its ok and a pain issue/ non-degenerative.

With Turf toe he’s going to have to wait until the offseason to really recover if I read it right. Again if they clear the $95M dollar man I’m guessing its ok and a pain issue. So even if he says he rushed it—was it a pain issue and would it have hurt less around the same time if he played or not? (Because it isn’t likely to “heal” until the offseason.) So if Thibs makes comments about pain tolerance he sounds callous but he’s actually probably pretty knowledgeable.

It’s JR’s investment and I think he’s got it covered if it’s degenerative.
It’s about chemistry and knowing what you are going to do automatically in situations so reps help. He only played 26 mins last night—enough to stay in rhythm run some plays. There is something about getting into the flow of the offense and game and knowing how to do it automatically no matter what issues. He is going to be playing hurt come playoff times no matter what.

This isn’t some callous gym coach telling a kid with a broken leg to “walk it off son” the more modern physical treatments show that getting back in action sooner is better. Anecdotally--on the extreme side--they used to have heart patients wait before exercising—now they do it right away. Resting in bed a month made it worse not better.

Yeah I know cool story bro, but resting may not always be better than getting back into the routine and playing--I think that is the main arguement.

[northbrookrich]

Lots of good stuff here everyone. By the way, for those thinking that playing against bad teams guarantees a win even if Rose does not play, please explain how the 72-10 Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan lost to the 21-61 Toronto Raptors? For those wondering, no this was not a Raptors team with Vince Carter OR Tracy McGrady. Wins are NOT guaranteed if you don't bring your A game. AND 1 game certainly looks like it could be the difference between a 1 seed and something lower.

[LVBrian]

Lots of good stuff here everyone. By the way, for those thinking that playing against bad teams guarantees a win even if Rose does not play, please explain how the 72-10 Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan lost to the 21-61 Toronto Raptors? For those wondering, no this was not a Raptors team with Vince Carter OR Tracy McGrady. Wins are NOT guaranteed if you don't bring your A game. AND 1 game certainly looks like it could be the difference between a 1 seed and something lower.

Eh. The Bulls are likely to get the 1 seed. Miami doesnt have a pyscho head coach like Thibs. I love how the Bulls are managing minutes, though.

[blumeany]

The day ANYONE from the team last year or this year speaks up about Thibs working them too hard (and not in jest) as opposed to saying how much they love Thibs and understand why they are being challenged (working towards a CHAMPIONSHIP), then I may think some of you have a point.

Until then, only time will tell whether Thibs is a genius or Skiles 2.0.

[musiqsoulchild]

A little pissed that this meaningless topic is getting so much board attention on a day when we should all be in the Luol Deng thread.

Hey, at least this thread is outpacing Dwight to Chicago. Part 2, might I add.

[LVBrian]

The day ANYONE from the team last year or this year speaks up about Thibs working them too hard (and not in jest) as opposed to saying how much they love Thibs and understand why they are being challenged (working towards a CHAMPIONSHIP), then I may think some of you have a point.

Until then, only time will tell whether Thibs is a genius or Skiles 2.0.

Eh, you don't need time. Thibs is genius.

[kyrv]

Lots of good stuff here everyone. By the way, for those thinking that playing against bad teams guarantees a win even if Rose does not play, please explain how the 72-10 Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan lost to the 21-61 Toronto Raptors? For those wondering, no this was not a Raptors team with Vince Carter OR Tracy McGrady. Wins are NOT guaranteed if you don't bring your A game. AND 1 game certainly looks like it could be the difference between a 1 seed and something lower.

Yes, especially road games.

Heat have lost twice to the Bucks. Stuff happens.

[scoutshonor]

my thinking is that CJ watson (in our system) performs about as well as any other PG in the entire NBA...he seriously might be 1 or 2 this year.

Brewer and Korver are capable back ups both ar SG and SF.

Taj is a top 5 back up PF.

Omer is a top 5 back up C.

And the fact is that brewer, Korver, Taj and Omer would start on about 10 NBA teams or more.

So why on earth are we playing Rose, Luol, Rip, and Boozer so many minutes? Especially Luol? makes no sense to me.

Our guys should never ever ever need to play more than 32 mpg and in fact can rest on some b2b and b2b2b nights. There is no need for this...We are the deepest team in the league by a large margin.

This is Thibs' only flaw in my eyes.

[BeKuK]

Good post scoutshonor!

It's still amazing that people don't understand the matter: healthy or not healthy.
The most of us have seen Rose in NO...and did he really looked healthy? No he didn't!

So, why all the risk to make it more worse?

Or at least: Why did he start? Why not coming from the bench when the game would have been close?

[kingkirk]

Why would he even suit up then? Why would he even travel to NO and to Charlotte tomorrow?

If he is hurt, why are our medical staff allowing him to play? Why is Derrick saying he is ok?

Its not all on Thibs.

If a go has declared him self ready to go and the medical team have done the same thing, then he better be ready to go to war, otherwise he is hurting his team as well as himself.

In these blowout wins, our guys havent been logging crazy minutes anyway.

[pduh01]

Personally I do not think Rose should play against NO, just get another rest for precaution, and then see if he is ready come Friday against the Bobcats if not then wait until Sunday. Usually back spasm takes what a minimum a week? Usually treatment for people who have back spasm especially people who are sports athletic will have to obvious get treatment mostly ice and massage on their back but also to not do any sports activity for at least I believe a week, or two.

I know Derrick Rose wants to play thats fine but sometime you may have to do what you do not want to do but what benefits you especially your career in long term. But also sometimes you may have to take precaution just for safe side. I do not think Derrick Rose looks 100 percentage yet but he looks say maybe my guess and this is assuming my guess from my eye test judging by the Hornets game say 70-80% around that range. I know he plays through it last Saturday against the Bucks which is the game where he hurt his back but play through it and my first thought maybe he shouldn't play on Monday against the Nets either for that time being even and wait until Wednesday.

[kingkirk]

Personally I do not think Rose should play against NO, just get another rest for precaution, and then see if he is ready come Friday against the Bobcats if not then wait until Sunday. Usually back spasm takes what a minimum a week? Usually treatment for people who have back spasm especially people who are sports athletic will have to obvious get treatment mostly ice and massage on their back but also to not do any sports activity for at least I believe a week, or two.

I know Derrick Rose wants to play thats fine but sometime you may have to do what you do not want to do but what benefits you especially your career in long term. But also sometimes you may have to take precaution just for safe side. I do not think Derrick Rose looks 100 percentage yet but he looks say maybe my guess and this is assuming my guess from my eye test judging by the Hornets game say 70-80% around that range. I know he plays through it last Saturday against the Bucks which is the game where he hurt his back but play through it and my first thought maybe he shouldn't play on Monday against the Nets either for that time being even and wait until Wednesday.

I see what you're saying and i agree, but their needs to be ownership on the player as well.

If Derrick tells Thibs he is 100% and ready to roll, then the coach needs to trust that sometimes.

[BeKuK]

Why would he even suit up then? Why would he even travel to NO and to Charlotte tomorrow?

Every player wants to play when "HE" thinks that he's alright.....but their alright doesn't come when they are by 100%....their alright comes earlier!!

[kingkirk]

Why would he even suit up then? Why would he even travel to NO and to Charlotte tomorrow?

Every player wants to play when "HE" thinks that he's alright.....but there alright doesn't come when they are by 100%....there alright comes earlier!!

How to they clear this with the medical staff, in particular a 94 million dollar asset?

[pduh01]

Personally I do not think Rose should play against NO, just get another rest for precaution, and then see if he is ready come Friday against the Bobcats if not then wait until Sunday. Usually back spasm takes what a minimum a week? Usually treatment for people who have back spasm especially people who are sports athletic will have to obvious get treatment mostly ice and massage on their back but also to not do any sports activity for at least I believe a week, or two.

I know Derrick Rose wants to play that is fine but sometime you may have to do what you do not want to do but what benefits you especially your career in long term. But also sometimes you may have to take precaution just for safe side. I do not think Derrick Rose looks 100 percentage yet but he looks say maybe my guess and this is assuming my guess from my eye test judging by the Hornets game say 70-80% around that range. I know he plays through it last Saturday against the Bucks which is the game where he hurt his back but play through it and my first thought maybe he shouldn't play on Monday against the Nets either for that time being even and wait until Wednesday.

I see what you're saying and i agree, but their needs to be ownership on the player as well.

If Derrick tells Thibs he is 100% and ready to roll, then the coach needs to trust that sometimes.

I agree and I understand that coaches need to trust their players decision, if they want to play ok but sometimes even players could make the bad decision when they want to play but decide to play even it make take a toll risk not for your team but for yourself.

If I remember correctly when Grant Hill was with the Pistons he sprain his ankle, I know different injury than Rose is dealing with a back spasm even though back spasm is no slouch. Grant Hil come back a bit to soon(I can't remember exactly.), and he re-aggravated his ankle injury keep in mind that is when he was with the Pistons and that same year he become the free agent which that same year he sign with Orlando. Anyways, he really have a bad luck, he re-aggravated the same injury but it makes it much worse that even have surgery, and put his career almost in jeopardy. Now, I maybe wrong with this information but I remember watching Grant Hill play that year, and injured the ankle come back, and re-injured it.

I know different injury but the situation could happen I know injuries do happen all the time, I understand that but taking precaution maybe for his own sakes. I know coaches needs to trust their players, and while I do not 100% blame Thibs for it but do think Rose really need to thinks the outside of the book, and take precaution.

From my experience I play with a sprain ankle before, in fact I play a tons of time, luckily for me I didn't re-aggravated and didn't make it worse for me to lead to a surgery. However, I remember one time playing basketball at the university(not an organization, nor any league just a pick up game five on five.) I sprain my ankle pretty good when I play. Of course I didn't play the rest of the day got ice, went home, got some ice, and put on my ankle and rest it. Two days later(which I know I am not 100% but I want to play in my mind so I did play another pick up game five on five.) and I remember that one moment which I have difficult time playing defense since my ankle is not 100%, and I remember one moment I feel, and almost think I hear my bone pop(it didn't.) but it feels that way, and it was so tender, and tight with my ankle. I did play a few games then afterwards go home, and decide to rest for two weeks at minmum and feel much better than I was that day.

I did this a few times before which before I didn't feel that way but only difference is I came back way to soon which was two days later I sprain my ankle. I playing summer league basketball years ago sprain my ankle and continue to play and try to play for the rest of the game try to help my team(it was a tournament I have to try to help lol.) of course ref want me to sit on the bench, and I have been force to sit on the bench for the rest of the game lol.

If I could take one thing back, that is what I mention above do not come back two days later with a sprain ankle again I know different injury than a back spasm. But the same mentally I have with Rose which is BOTH want to play even if not 100% healthy, and sometime it is ok to play while you are not 100% healthy but depend on the injury of course. But sometime even as bad want to play again might need to think outside of the box, and take precaution for it.

We are all glad and lucky that Derrick Rose didn't really re-aggravated his injury again against the Hornets.

[northbrookrich]

Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau said he remembered Rose dealing with back problems last season.

"He had it one time last year and it was similar. It was one game, then the rest, then he was fine after that," Thibodeau said. "And never had it again. But I guess he's had this since high school. I think he knows how to deal with it pretty effectively.

This was in an article yesterday - http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/ ... ns-hornets

So, the decision to play him was not only based on clearance from Thibs, Rose and the doctors/trainers, but it was also based on an apparent similar injury last year that went away after one game. They may need to re-evaluate the conclusion, but prior to yesterday's game it would seem that they could reasonably expect that it was a one game thing that would be gone for the NO game.

I just wanted to repost this because it is being disregarded in the last couple of pages of posts. Rose had what appears to be the SAME injury last year. He sat one game, played the next and never had a recurrence. I think this is a huge part of why everyone (player, coach, doctors) all decided that he would be able to play. This is not rocket science. There is medical history that has proven successful in this particular ailment with this particular patient. Seems reasonable to follow the same protocol. And you know what, they also closely monitored the situation and pulled him/limited his minutes as they saw his actual condition. I don't think there is anything to talk about here other than seeing in hindsight that they probably could have won without him even suiting up. We did not know that would be the case and if you are trying to get a #1 seed, you can't take that risk - I don't care who the opponent is!

[DuckIII]

Good post scoutshonor!

It's still amazing that people don't understand the matter: healthy or not healthy.
The most of us have seen Rose in NO...and did he really looked healthy? No he didn't!

So, why all the risk to make it more worse?

Or at least: Why did he start? Why not coming from the bench when the game would have been close?

The point is you don't even know the answer to any of your own questions. And neither do I? Do you know why? We aren't sports physicians with direct access to Derrick Rose and Luol Deng's bodies.