Which Trio would you prefer?

[chadrucf]

1. Asik was a 2.8/3.7 player in 12.1 minutes per game when the trade was being discussed. At the time of the trade, it left us with no legitimate center to fall back on.

2. Asik isn't free. Noah/Butler/Picks only gets you Aldridge. What are you giving up in addition for Asik?

What were Asik's PER 36 numbers? I even posted them in here. They are the same as they were now. And they were good enough for Houston to give him a PP contract and start him at C. And he delivered those numbers.

And yes, Asik isn't free. But you still have other picks as well as Taj and Deng and Boozer. Be like Houston, be proactive and creative. That's not in our FO's DNA though.

Even his per36 numbers were much worse then than they are now. Houston didn't give him that contract until 1.5 years after the Anthony trade. We had no idea what kind of player he would eventually develop into two years later.

If other pieces needed to be included, they need to be listed in the breakdown. Your best case scenario is Houston taking Boozer straight up for Asik. (unrealistic) Even in that scenario, it's Noah/Boozer/Butler/Picks/etc for Aldridge and Asik.

[nitetrain8603]

1. Asik was a 2.8/3.7 player in 12.1 minutes per game when the trade was being discussed. At the time of the trade, it left us with no legitimate center to fall back on.

2. Asik isn't free. Noah/Butler/Picks only gets you Aldridge. What are you giving up in addition for Asik?

What were Asik's PER 36 numbers? I even posted them in here. They are the same as they were now. And they were good enough for Houston to give him a PP contract and start him at C. And he delivered those numbers.

And yes, Asik isn't free. But you still have other picks as well as Taj and Deng and Boozer. Be like Houston, be proactive and creative. That's not in our FO's DNA though.

Even his per36 numbers were much worse then than they are now. Houston didn't give him that contract until 1.5 years after the Anthony trade. We had no idea what kind of player he would eventually develop into two years later.

If other pieces needed to be included, they need to be listed in the breakdown. Your best case scenario is Houston taking Boozer straight up for Asik. (unrealistic) Even in that scenario, it's Noah/Boozer/Butler/Picks/etc for Aldridge and Asik.

Much worse? No they weren't. PER 36:
PPG / FGA / TRB
8.3 / 5.1 / 11.1
7.6 / 5.8 / 13.0
12.2 / 9.0 / 14.0

He's stayed at around 1 steal, 1 assist and 2.5 steals per 36. Even in his rookie year, that would've been good enough. He's solidly improving too.

[The Kane]

This thread reeks of

'I just don't like Melo' and 'My heart is attached to Jo'

There's some fair criticism in style of play, but there's a lot of points here that are very shaky.

- Doesn't make teammates better. - sure, but if you're looking at the actual question, he's being compared to Deng and Noah...not Lebron, not Rose...nor Duncan, or Nowitzki. How are Jo and Deng making teammates better? Surely people will point to Jo's passing here. It's great for a C, but doesn't make up for the gigantic gaping hole in crunch time offense
- Only made it as far as us in the playoffs. C'mon, that's just pure hate. In what series were the Knicks actually a better team than their opponent? None of them. I don't care if NY had a higher seed, Indy to me was clearly the better team.
- Cant cut or play off ball like Wade...pretty unfair...it's taken the Heat 3 years to get the three stars operating like they are now. Derrick Rose is the point guard. IMO, if we got a scorer like Melo, the onus is on Rose to get the new star and everyone else involved...pick and choose his spots...cause that's his job as a PG

I do believe our culture, Thibs and GarPax would have a positive influence over Melo. You've got to be a complete, petulant ass (ie Tyrus) to not have it change you for the better.

Forget Noah and Deng. Look at our best player by miles in Rose. How many times has he gone mano a mano with Lebron down the stretch and won? I think never. Melo has done that, and come out on top.

You can't touchy feel and intangible your way past sheer talent.

Thank you. It's pathetic how people let their personal feelings about a player distract them from reality.

[chadrucf]

Much worse? No they weren't. PER 36:
PPG / FGA / TRB
8.3 / 5.1 / 11.1
7.6 / 5.8 / 13.0
12.2 / 9.0 / 14.0

He's stayed at around 1 steal, 1 assist and 2.5 steals per 36. Even in his rookie year, that would've been good enough. He's solidly improving too.

4 points and 3 boards more is not exactly the same. You can't just extrapolate per36 numbers to triple the minutes and say that's when a player would do. There are way too many factors involved.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

Superstars win championships

Except for when they don't. There's been plenty of superstars over the past 10-20 years, and yet a pretty select few that led their teams to championships.

[League Circles]

I think that team is definitely strong enough to win. Omer Taj and Butler are your lockdown defenders, and Omer and Butler would greatly benefit playing off of both Rose and Melo. Plus, you still have Mirotic coming on over as well.

To whatever extent Omer and Taj would benefit from playing off of Rose and Melo, it's negated by how much drastically harder it would be for Melo and especially Rose to score, seeing as how the men defending Omer and Taj can cheat off of them much more safely than guys guarding Boozer and Noah IMO.

Nobody is benefiting from playing off of Melo because Melo doesn't pass for ****.

Mirotic likely wouldn't still be coming over because he wants the full MLE and I'm not doing the math but I believe we'd be well over the apron with such a team, and thus unable to offer the full MLE.

[nitetrain8603]

Much worse? No they weren't. PER 36:
PPG / FGA / TRB
8.3 / 5.1 / 11.1
7.6 / 5.8 / 13.0
12.2 / 9.0 / 14.0

He's stayed at around 1 steal, 1 assist and 2.5 steals per 36. Even in his rookie year, that would've been good enough. He's solidly improving too.

4 points and 3 boards more is not exactly the same. You can't just extrapolate per36 numbers to triple the minutes and say that's when a player would do. There are way too many factors involved.

Which is why I included the Field Goal Attempts. Asik scored more because he actually took more shots which explains that. And you say I can't do that, but yet, Asik's numbers got better when he played more minutes. No matter how you break it down, you can't win this argument.

[nitetrain8603]

I think that team is definitely strong enough to win. Omer Taj and Butler are your lockdown defenders, and Omer and Butler would greatly benefit playing off of both Rose and Melo. Plus, you still have Mirotic coming on over as well.

To whatever extent Omer and Taj would benefit from playing off of Rose and Melo, it's negated by how much drastically harder it would be for Melo and especially Rose to score, seeing as how the men defending Omer and Taj can cheat off of them much more safely than guys guarding Boozer and Noah IMO.

Nobody is benefiting from playing off of Melo because Melo doesn't pass for ****.

Mirotic likely wouldn't still be coming over because he wants the full MLE and I'm not doing the math but I believe we'd be well over the apron with such a team, and thus unable to offer the full MLE.

You act like Omer and Taj are incompetent on offense. Taj and Omer know how to position themselves for an easy basket so when teams do cheat off of them, they make them pay with a dunk or layup. I'm not saying they're studs on offense, but they can catch and throw down a dunk which is what would happen. Plus, you can't double both Melo and Rose. You do that, then the Bulls would play 4 on 1 offense.

It's about playing off of one another and having a great option who can create for himself in one on one opportunities when the other is covered.

[DRoseCantStop]

Thank you. It's pathetic how people let their personal feelings about a player distract them from reality.

People over-value players so much on this board. It gets ridiculous sometimes.

[League Circles]

You act like Omer and Taj are incompetent on offense. Taj and Omer know how to position themselves for an easy basket so when teams do cheat off of them, they make them pay with a dunk or layup. I'm not saying they're studs on offense, but they can catch and throw down a dunk which is what would happen. Plus, you can't double both Melo and Rose. You do that, then the Bulls would play 4 on 1 offense.

This is true, to an extent. While Omer does still have pretty bad hands compared to other players, yes both he and Taj can catch a pass at the basket and throw down a dunk. The problem is that this won't happen enough. I didn't make my statement clear enough. If I'm playing against that lineup, I simply put one player each on Butler, Rose and Melo, and then have two guys with one foot in the lane near the basket. Total zone. I'll allow Taj and Omer to set screens and shoot jumpers all day. Rose will rarely get near the basket IMO, and Melo will play his horse-blinders game as usual scoring a lot on solid efficiency but never moving the ball for those easy scores.

It's about playing off of one another and having a great option who can create for himself in one on one opportunities when the other is covered.

I don't think Melo can play off of anyone and I don't think anyone can play off of him. He's a great one on one scorer, but I think we're in greater need of someone to facilitate and space. Melo doesn't facilitate enough. Guys playing with him mentally check out of the offense. It's no coincidence Amare went from absolutely dominating in NY prior to his arrival to being a huge disappointment.

We don't have access to the kiind of player I'd really like right now, and in the absence of that, Jimmy's elite defense and solid all around game is nice. We now have a starting 5 where everybody must be guarded everywhere except Noah and Boozer outside about 17 feet.

[drosestruts]

Melo wanted to play in New York so this whole thing is pointless.

[chadrucf]

And you say I can't do that, but yet, Asik's numbers got better when he played more minutes. No matter how you break it down, you can't win this argument.

That correlation does not prove your point. There are many other factors involved.

And in any case, the question is about what we knew at the time. His subsequent seasons are not available as evidence.

[Former Roy]

This thread reeks of

'I just don't like Melo' and 'My heart is attached to Jo'

There's some fair criticism in style of play, but there's a lot of points here that are very shaky.

- Doesn't make teammates better. - sure, but if you're looking at the actual question, he's being compared to Deng and Noah...not Lebron, not Rose...nor Duncan, or Nowitzki. How are Jo and Deng making teammates better? Surely people will point to Jo's passing here. It's great for a C, but doesn't make up for the gigantic gaping hole in crunch time offense
- Only made it as far as us in the playoffs. C'mon, that's just pure hate. In what series were the Knicks actually a better team than their opponent? None of them. I don't care if NY had a higher seed, Indy to me was clearly the better team.
- Cant cut or play off ball like Wade...pretty unfair...it's taken the Heat 3 years to get the three stars operating like they are now. Derrick Rose is the point guard. IMO, if we got a scorer like Melo, the onus is on Rose to get the new star and everyone else involved...pick and choose his spots...cause that's his job as a PG

I do believe our culture, Thibs and GarPax would have a positive influence over Melo. You've got to be a complete, petulant ass (ie Tyrus) to not have it change you for the better.

Forget Noah and Deng. Look at our best player by miles in Rose. How many times has he gone mano a mano with Lebron down the stretch and won? I think never. Melo has done that, and come out on top.

You can't touchy feel and intangible your way past sheer talent.

Ive seen powerful postings today...but this one is on GOKU levels...

[Godzilla039]

Rose/Melo/Asik

You win with stars in this league and spare me the talk about Melo not having any championships. It took 9 years for the greatest player of this generation to win one. Jordan, Dirk, Hakeem, Elway etc all suffered through years of defeat before winning a championship. Acquire the elite talent then build around it. People claim Melo hasn't done anything in the playoffs while conveniently ignoring that he has lead his team to the Western Conference Finals. People talk about how it wouldn't work with Rose while ignoring the fact that Melo and another shoot first PG/SG (Allen Iverson) won 50 games one year while both were top 5 scorers in the league. They'd eventually get swept by the Western Conference NBA Finals representatives, Los Angeles Lakers, I know.

RealGM, where Bulls fans over value roleplayers while simultaneously undervaluing a guy coming off a season in which he was a top 3 MVP candidate.

[dice]

Rose/Melo/Asik

You win with stars in this league and spare me the talk about Melo not having any championships. It took 9 years for the greatest player of this generation to win one

except that melo has had the supporting casts and rarely gets out of the first round. he makes guys around him worse to the extent that the knicks previous MVP candidate (amare) can't be on the floor at the same time with him

[dice]

You can't touchy feel and intangible your way past sheer talent.

and talent doesn't mean much when you can't consistently harness it for the overall good of your team

[TheSuzerain]

Rose/Melo/Asik easily.

Legitimate contender.

[GMgoran]

If I am being completely honest, I wouldn't want Melo anywhere near the Bulls ... Terrible fit for this Bulls team, and one of the most over-rated players in the league ...

[DRoseCantStop]

Rose/Melo/Asik

You win with stars in this league and spare me the talk about Melo not having any championships. It took 9 years for the greatest player of this generation to win one

except that melo has had the supporting casts and rarely gets out of the first round. he makes guys around him worse to the extent that the knicks previous MVP candidate (amare) can't be on the floor at the same time with him

Melo's supporting cast on the Knicks was only good for half of the regular season. When it came to the post-season, they sucked. Woodson reverted back to Melo ISO, Jason Kidd couldn't buy a bucket, Chandler continuously whined, oh, and JR Smith did not play like the sixth man of the year. Amare didn't make anything better. It reminded me of the Denver Nuggets from 2008. The Knicks were broken.

It saddened me a little seeing Melo put up a valiant effort in the close-out game against Indy. Down 3-2, but can't get a lead because his teammates were trash.

And for the people who say Melo doesn't make his teammates better, that's the point guard's job.

[GMgoran]

And for the people who say Melo doesn't make his teammates better, that's the point guard's job.

This is a joke, right?