Thoughts on Donovan right now

[dougthonus]

You are veering into a different discussion. I'm simply saying he has to do something to try to stop being behind by 15 after one quarter.

That's what a coach does. Like I said, whether it works or not.

When the option to switch things up is to play considerably worse players and hope they play way over their heads today then it isn't a coaching problem.

[Ice Man]

By the way, Jalen Smith only getting a little below 15 minutes a game is mind blowing for me.

Jalen has looked very good. There seem to be a lot of solid #4s floating around. In recent seasons, the Bulls have signed Javonte (OK a #3 really, but he has the energy and boards to play some at the #4 spot), DJJ (ditto), and Thad Young. Good players, available for basically nothing.

Whereas backup centers, not so much.

OK that wasn't about Billy. But you guys have already covered those issues.

[RSP83]

By the way, Jalen Smith only getting a little below 15 minutes a game is mind blowing for me.

His per 36 minutes compared to Pat's looks crazy. Thing is the optics sort of checks out too. I guess it's more disappointing on Pat's part.

One of Cowley or KC said Smith wasn't in shape for big minutes yet and he's building.

And Pat in shape? Eh...

[Stratmaster]

You are veering into a different discussion. I'm simply saying he has to do something to try to stop being behind by 15 after one quarter.

That's what a coach does. Like I said, whether it works or not.

When the option to switch things up is to play considerably worse players and hope they play way over their heads today then it isn't a coaching problem.

The players and total minutes don't have to change. I mean they can't, right? I am feeling a bit like you are purposely avoiding the point.

If your radiator is leaking, you do SOMETHING to try to stop the leak, right? You don't just stop every 5 minutes and pour more water into it. Maybe for now, all you have is some radiator sealant. So you try that. Didn't work. So you get some tape and more sealant and you try that. You know what, it went from a full blown leak to a drip. You still need a new radiator, but until you get it, the problem is lessened.

I will try once more. The issue I was discussing was the Bulls poor performances to start games. Why do they play so much worse to start the game? It is the same roster you are playing with in quarters 2 through 4, so it isn't a roster talent issue as compared to later in the game. It can only be one of 2 things. Either the mix of players on the floor, or preparation. Both are on the coach. Frankly, it hasn't just been this season, so I tend to lean toward the latter. In reality, it is most likely a combination of the 2.

I can't believe that what you are saying is that the talent is only at x level, therefore there is no reason for the coach to try to do anything to address the issue.

[Stratmaster]

Doug.....don't use logic and common sense.

So it is illogical and nonsensical to expect the coach to attempt some adjustment to address a recurring issues that is losing you games?

Sure. Whatever you say.

Why don't they just give Donovan a vacation for the rest of the season since it seems there is no way to try to coach a .500 NBA team?

What is illogical and nonsensical is not to try to do something.

Do what? The roster is a defensively inept mess, we aren't a .500 team.

A coaching staff isn't responsible for players being careless with the ball which alongside being atrocious defensively is the Bulls biggest problem.

This team is literally built to destroy teams with the 3 ball or lose, that's it.

My comment was about poor starts to games. Horrible first quarters. Is Billy playing with a different roster in Q1 than Q2-4. does the team get new defensive talent in Q2 through 4 that wasn't available in Q1? Are the players more careless with the ball in Q1? If so, why would that be?

Do what? Start Ayo instead of Coby. Or try Smith at PF instead of Williams. Or start Ayo in place of Williams. Or get Lavine involved earlier instead of "we are going to let everyone on the court launch a 3, then we will start actually looking at how we should play". Or maybe we aren't giving the best scouting information to the players pre-game? Or there is something else wrong with how we are preparing for the game. One more time. The available players, their skill levels, and their strengths and weaknesses don't change when the game moves from Q1 to Q2.

[dougthonus]

The players and total minutes don't have to change. I mean they can't, right? I am feeling a bit like you are purposely avoiding the point.

I think you are missing the point.

You are unhappy with what is going on, and your assumption is that if you do something else it will be better. Maybe an example is Milwaukee. They said Mike Budenholzer didn't make enough adjustments, so they fired him to bring in someone else. It's been a disaster since then. Maybe Mike Budenholzer didn't make a ton of adjustments because he was already doing the best thing, and making adjustments wasn't likely to fix the problem.

That said, Donovan does make adjustments in the rotations. He's just not changed the starters except due to injury which isn't unusual given the makeup of the team, the injuries they've had, the number of games played, or even the record relative to expectations.

I'm sure they may play with starters some down the line, but they're heavily incentivized for non-basketball reasons to play the guys they are playing. They want to start Coby/Giddey/Pat, and need to start Vuc/Zach to up their trade value to sell them off.

If Ayo was playing great on offense, I think there'd be more of a case for him, but he isn't.

I can't believe that what you are saying is that the talent is only at x level, therefore there is no reason for the coach to try to do anything to address the issue.

I'm not saying that because "coaching" does not equal "changing the starting lineup", and no one else but you would seem to think that is true. The rotations have hardly been static out there.

[burlydee]

You are veering into a different discussion. I'm simply saying he has to do something to try to stop being behind by 15 after one quarter.

That's what a coach does. Like I said, whether it works or not.

When the option to switch things up is to play considerably worse players and hope they play way over their heads today then it isn't a coaching problem.

Ayo is not considerably worse than Coby. Smith is not considerably worse than PWill. That's our 6th and 7th man.

[dougthonus]

Ayo is not considerably worse than Coby. Smith is not considerably worse than PWill. That's our 6th and 7th man.

Ayo is already playing 28 minutes a game, you think if we swap him out for Coby in the starting lineup the team will magically be better?

I'd like to see Smith some at PF, but its his secondary position, and probably a stretch to start him there. Would just like to see him get some more minutes over Philips at the moment. Joe Cowley said he wasn't in shape which was causing his minutes limitations.

Yelling at people's rotations is 98% of the time just a lose/tie. You can never prove something else wouldn't have been better, but fans always think it would be.

[Chi town]

My thoughts on Billy…

What’s his game right now?

He left OKC because he didn’t want to rebuild. Now OKC is the best young team in the league while Billy has coached the most mediocre and boring team for the past 4 years. Yes, losing Zo hurt.

Sources are saying Vuc and Zach are gone and if not Ayo or Coby will be traded. It seems obvious the Bulls are REBUILDING and will TANK. Most likely stealth style otherwise DT and JP would be playing over Carter and Craig.

So what’s Billy’s angle? No jobs out there for him? He thinks we can win if we get a top pick? What’s the plan that has him sticking around? Doesn’t want to return to college NIL portal ball?

Has he learned from his OKC error that you must have stars to win and those come through the draft?

[Stratmaster]

The players and total minutes don't have to change. I mean they can't, right? I am feeling a bit like you are purposely avoiding the point.

I think you are missing the point.

You are unhappy with what is going on, and your assumption is that if you do something else it will be better. Maybe an example is Milwaukee. They said Mike Budenholzer didn't make enough adjustments, so they fired him to bring in someone else. It's been a disaster since then. Maybe Mike Budenholzer didn't make a ton of adjustments because he was already doing the best thing, and making adjustments wasn't likely to fix the problem.

That said, Donovan does make adjustments in the rotations. He's just not changed the starters except due to injury which isn't unusual given the makeup of the team, the injuries they've had, the number of games played, or even the record relative to expectations.

I'm sure they may play with starters some down the line, but they're heavily incentivized for non-basketball reasons to play the guys they are playing. They want to start Coby/Giddey/Pat, and need to start Vuc/Zach to up their trade value to sell them off.

If Ayo was playing great on offense, I think there'd be more of a case for him, but he isn't.

I can't believe that what you are saying is that the talent is only at x level, therefore there is no reason for the coach to try to do anything to address the issue.

I'm not saying that because "coaching" does not equal "changing the starting lineup", and no one else but you would seem to think that is true. The rotations have hardly been static out there.

It doesn't have to be a change in the starting lineup, it can be quicker rotations and different early rotations. You know this. You're not stupid, yet insist on taking ever thought given on it's own as if it is the only way to address the issue, and as if you and I should have a better handle on the "how" than the guy getting paid millions to be the coach.

I'm not sure why you decided to get the personal insult in there. But since you did, and since I am pretty sick of that crap on here anyway, I'll put it back to you the same way.

No one else but you, in my 55 years of listening to sports analysis, watching sports, etc. would have the ridiculous opinion that when a sports team has a problem, "doing nothing" is the appropriate response from a head coach.

So it seems you are arguing just as a defense of a head coach you believe I am too hard on. Great, then say so. But arguing a ridiculous position just makes you look ridiculous. Kind of like your unwillingness to acknowledge Vuc's improvement in defensive activity or anything else good about him other than "he is shooting better" because you previously told us he was the worst starting Center in the league, etc.

[Stratmaster]

Ayo is not considerably worse than Coby. Smith is not considerably worse than PWill. That's our 6th and 7th man.

Ayo is already playing 28 minutes a game, you think if we swap him out for Coby in the starting lineup the team will magically be better?

I'd like to see Smith some at PF, but its his secondary position, and probably a stretch to start him there. Would just like to see him get some more minutes over Philips at the moment. Joe Cowley said he wasn't in shape which was causing his minutes limitations.

Yelling at people's rotations is 98% of the time just a lose/tie. You can never prove something else wouldn't have been better, but fans always think it would be.

See, again, you purposely ignore the point. Swapping Ayo for Coby in the starting lineup doesn't have anything to do with the total minutes played, and you know this. Would it make anything "magically" better? Do you believe only magic makes things better? How about it makes things marginally better and we are only down by 6 at the end of the quarter instead of 12? Would that be worth the change?

Smith doesn't have to start at PF. But he could come in at the 6 minute mark at PF, right?

Within the starting lineup, who you get involved early and how you get them involved could be adjusted, couldn't it?

But, Billy fans will be Billy fans. "He talks about the game really good".

[burlydee]

Ayo is not considerably worse than Coby. Smith is not considerably worse than PWill. That's our 6th and 7th man.

Ayo is already playing 28 minutes a game, you think if we swap him out for Coby in the starting lineup the team will magically be better?

I'd like to see Smith some at PF, but its his secondary position, and probably a stretch to start him there. Would just like to see him get some more minutes over Philips at the moment. Joe Cowley said he wasn't in shape which was causing his minutes limitations.

Yelling at people's rotations is 98% of the time just a lose/tie. You can never prove something else wouldn't have been better, but fans always think it would be.

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

[dougthonus]

It doesn't have to be a change in the starting lineup, it can be quicker rotations and different early rotations. You know this. You're not stupid, yet insist on taking ever thought given on it's own as if it is the only way to address the issue, and as if you and I should have a better handle on the "how" than the guy getting paid millions to be the coach.

The entire offense and game play style is new this year. To suggest that Donovan is unwilling to change anything just doesn't seem to add up to me given he's literally changed the entire way the team plays.

Beyond which, given the entire offense is different this year, and there are new key personnel, it probably shouldn't be a huge shock that there is some balance of patience vs quick hooks, but they've already shown a willingness to hook Giddey in crunch time, so it's not like he's unwilling to do anything.

I'm not sure why you decided to get the personal insult in there. But since you did, and since I am pretty sick of that crap on here anyway, I'll put it back to you the same way.

My apologies.

No one else but you, in my 55 years of listening to sports analysis, watching sports, etc. would have the ridiculous opinion that when a sports team has a problem, "doing nothing" is the appropriate response from a head coach.

I've never said he should do nothing, nor is he doing nothing, nor is the team as static as you think it is.

So it seems you are arguing just as a defense of a head coach you believe I am too hard on. Great, then say so.

My feeling is that you seem to expect the head coach to solve a problem which is primarily a roster problem by just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it will be better. The rotations aren't working well enough, so just do something different (even though they aren't really all that static anyway). Maybe that isn't what you are saying, but it sounds like it to me.

We just revamped the offensive system, massively changing the way the team plays, and made major roster changes that impact the play style. To say Donovan isn't willing to change anything doesn't strike me as particularly accurate. If you aren't talking about changing starters, then I'm even less sure what your point is. The rotations certainly aren't set in stone if we are just talking about minutes.

But arguing a ridiculous position just makes you look ridiculous.

I'm not sure what is ridiculous about saying this roster sucks and reshuffling the deck chairs on the titanic isn't going to stop it from sinking.

Kind of like your unwillingness to acknowledge Vuc's improvement in defensive activity or anything else good about him other than "he is shooting better"

I've said on my podcast and on twitter and on here that Vuc is playing a ton better. His offense has been outstanding. I'm not sure why you think I'm refusing to acknowledge that, because I have acknowledged it in multiple places and on multiple platforms, and your thoughts to the contrary appear to be something you made up.

I have not given him credit for his defense because it's awful. Depending how you measure, he's somewhere between the worst and 5th worst rim defending center in the NBA.

because you previously told us he was the worst starting Center in the league, etc.

Well his defense is still bottom of the league, his offense is now outstanding, and so he grades out okay for the moment. He's having the most efficient year of his career, his best shooting year, and has also been good down low. Last year, he had literally one of the worst shooting years in league history from the 3 point line considering volume, shot quality, and shot quantity. He was also below average in the post, and well below league efficiency to go with his bottom tier defense, so yeah, last year, he was one of the worst starting centers in the league.

[dougthonus]

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

I wouldn't hate it if they tried it to be clear. I'd bench Giddey, he's by far the worst defender of the group.

[Stratmaster]

It doesn't have to be a change in the starting lineup, it can be quicker rotations and different early rotations. You know this. You're not stupid, yet insist on taking ever thought given on it's own as if it is the only way to address the issue, and as if you and I should have a better handle on the "how" than the guy getting paid millions to be the coach.

The entire offense and game play style is new this year. To suggest that Donovan is unwilling to change anything just doesn't seem to add up to me given he's literally changed the entire way the team plays.

Beyond which, given the entire offense is different this year, and there are new key personnel, it probably shouldn't be a huge shock that there is some balance of patience vs quick hooks, but they've already shown a willingness to hook Giddey in crunch time, so it's not like he's unwilling to do anything.

I'm not sure why you decided to get the personal insult in there. But since you did, and since I am pretty sick of that crap on here anyway, I'll put it back to you the same way.

My apologies.

No one else but you, in my 55 years of listening to sports analysis, watching sports, etc. would have the ridiculous opinion that when a sports team has a problem, "doing nothing" is the appropriate response from a head coach.

I've never said he should do nothing, nor is he doing nothing, nor is the team as static as you think it is.

So it seems you are arguing just as a defense of a head coach you believe I am too hard on. Great, then say so.

My feeling is that you seem to expect the head coach to solve a problem which is primarily a roster problem by just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it will be better. The rotations aren't working well enough, so just do something different (even though they aren't really all that static anyway). Maybe that isn't what you are saying, but it sounds like it to me.

We just revamped the offensive system, massively changing the way the team plays, and made major roster changes that impact the play style. To say Donovan isn't willing to change anything doesn't strike me as particularly accurate. If you aren't talking about changing starters, then I'm even less sure what your point is. The rotations certainly aren't set in stone if we are just talking about minutes.

But arguing a ridiculous position just makes you look ridiculous.

I'm not sure what is ridiculous about saying this roster sucks and reshuffling the deck chairs on the titanic isn't going to stop it from sinking.

Kind of like your unwillingness to acknowledge Vuc's improvement in defensive activity or anything else good about him other than "he is shooting better"

I've said on my podcast and on twitter and on here that Vuc is playing a ton better. His offense has been outstanding. I'm not sure why you think I'm refusing to acknowledge that, because I have acknowledged it in multiple places and on multiple platforms, and your thoughts to the contrary appear to be something you made up.

I have not given him credit for his defense because it's awful. Depending how you measure, he's somewhere between the worst and 5th worst rim defending center in the NBA.

because you previously told us he was the worst starting Center in the league, etc.

Well his defense is still bottom of the league, his offense is now outstanding, and so he grades out okay for the moment. He's having the most efficient year of his career, his best shooting year, and has also been good down low. Last year, he had literally one of the worst shooting years in league history from the 3 point line considering volume, shot quality, and shot quantity. He was also below average in the post, and well below league efficiency to go with his bottom tier defense, so yeah, last year, he was one of the worst starting centers in the league.

None of which has a thing to do with why the slow starts. As I watch Coby fall asleep on the 2nd possession followed by Williams launching a poor 3, followed by Williams falling asleep for another turnover to start this game

[Stratmaster]

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

I wouldn't hate it if they tried it to be clear. I'd bench Giddey, he's by far the worst defender of the group.

As I watch Giddey single handedley keep them in the game

[Indomitable]

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

I wouldn't hate it if they tried it to be clear. I'd bench Giddey, he's by far the worst defender of the group.

As I watch Giddey single handedley keep them in the game

That Lonzo and Lavine backcourt were great.

[jnrjr79]

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

I wouldn't hate it if they tried it to be clear. I'd bench Giddey, he's by far the worst defender of the group.

Notably, Giddey was on the bench in favor of Ayo down the stretch last night.

[GoBlue72391]

Somebody has to stop Billy from playing THT outside of garbage time.

[burlydee]

Yes, I think they would be magically better. And by magic i mean the statistical 5 man lineups that have been posted. the "magic" numbers say they would be better. The Bulls start 3 bad perimeter defenders. If they started 2, they might have a lead once in awhile. Ayo would be a dramatic upgrade in point of attack defense over Coby. It's also historically worked that way. Bulls always better with 2 good perimeter defenders under Donovan AND Coby/Lavine have never played well together.

Regardless, even if it is just magic, why not try it?

I wouldn't hate it if they tried it to be clear. I'd bench Giddey, he's by far the worst defender of the group.

As I watch Giddey single handedley keep them in the game

Benching Giddey makes no sense. The Bulls have needed a PG for awhile. Donovan keeps benching Giddey down the stretch only for the team to lose. Then he'll put Giddey back in the game in the final 2 minutes ... get this joker off my bench. I'm so tired of mismanaged front offices in Chicago.