Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[Polynice4Pippen]

I'm so impressed with John Wall. He's come such a long way in his career, done nothing but work hard and improve every season. Good for him.

[kyrv]

Controversial take, I know, but it's noth unfathomable to think that when it's all said and done, that LeBron had the better career and Michael had the better peak. It's certainly on the table if LeBron keeps playing like this for another 3 seasons and starts moving into number 1 on so many categories.

[immediately regrets posting this]

LeBron's problem even on the career rating (don't think he can pass MJ's peak because LeBron is already crested) is that for career, MJ's titles are always going to reign huge, and winning 6/6. LeBron will pass him in points, rebounds, assists, etc, but that's not enough plenty of other guys already lead MJ in those kinds of cumulative stats.

So unless LeBron starts winning more titles - which will be super hard with GS around - and keeps playing as well as last year in those Finals (not like 2011 or 2013) even career could be a hard mark to win convincingly. But certainly I could imagine people will be able to make arguments for that which aren't crazy.

But GOAT is the real prize, and for most people that means best player they ever saw, which is the one I don't think LeBron has a realistic shot for.

If we are just talking career accomplishments or what not, plenty of people already might argue for Russell or Kareem over MJ, MJs stranglehold is more on the GOAT title.

Lebron is (suddenly) a lot faster and better. I think Roger Clemens gave him some tips.

He would have crested, should have...but...?

[Mbrahv0528]

Could you imagine if Butler played like Harden. Elimination game, 5 points on 1-5 shooting...

"Not a superstar" "Not better than 2011 Rose"

He did already. A very Bradley kick Jimmy butt.

No he didn't.

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[Mbrahv0528]

LeBron vs MJ

The argument will go on forever.

If you measure it in trophies then none of these guys are in Bill Russel's league.
But there are so many other things you can measure it by.

I kinda think that LeBron is in that 2nd Jordan three peat territory now. If he pulls off the repeat this year (and he will) and then another after that in CLE - I'll start buying into him being on MJ's level. But he's got minimum of 2 more to win in CLE. He really should be gong for the 3peat this year anyways, he knows it too.

I'd like to sit and argue that MJ did more for the NBA in reagrds to EXPANSION and how they added a handful of franchises during his reign. But the NBA is bigger and more profitable than ever and more players are making BANK now and that is very much due to LeBron carrying the sport.

Another thing to consider will be what kind of an owner/GM LeGMn will be when he buys his team. If he turns out to be a better owner and wins some titles for his franchise, that's something folks can debate in the future. Like imagine if he buys the Nets and builds a dynasty.

Lol at "he will". There's a small chance the Cavs beat the W's this year in the finals. But it sure as **** isn't anywhere close to "he will". That's laughable at best.

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[Payt10]

I've heard many people in the media talk about Lebron as this is the best we've ever seen him. As good as he was this season, his peak years were his last two-three seasons in Miami, where he posted an ungodly TS percentages over 64%, and a PER of 31.6. His TS% this year is 62% and his PER is down to 27.

[HomoSapien]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

[Payt10]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

Totally agree. The superteam aspect behind his championships is a mark on his legacy, in my opinion. Same applies to Kevin Durant. Regardless of how many titles he wins with GS, he will forever be looked at as someone who took the easy road to get there.

[dice]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

pretty much. although the spurs were incredible in the finals in that last heatles season. then again, the credit lebron gets for winning it all in cleveland was due in large part to steph curry playing badly

[R3AL1TY]

Isaiah's turnover when he got trapped with a minute and some change left was a huge swing to erase Celtics' 5 point lead when Beal hit the 3. Wall followed up with a big shot on a busted play. This was one of the few exciting games in these playoffs.

Old Man Bron gets to chill and play NBA 2k17 with Jr Smith and Dahntay Jones until Wednesday.

[FriedRise]

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[Southpaw]

I will say if LeBron beats GS this year - and no funny business like injuries or suspensions involved - and plays as well as last Finals, I think he moves into #2 All-Time, and probably keeps open a crack to challenge MJ, based on what more he could do in forthcoming years.

This is where i'm at as well. I think Lebron is really close to MJ and if he wins against GSW this year, he'd be safe as the no. 2 all time with a few more years to play imo.

Jame Harden quit on his team! I know a few days late, but i just had to say it. 11 shots in an elimination game is unacceptable for an MvP candidate.

Also, props to John Wall and the Wiz for the great win. This funeral shtick needs to stop because it's just silly.

[TheStig]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

HS, I certainly see your point but it's not like MJ drafted Pip, HG, Rodman, Kukoc and such. Every star has had another star with few exceptions. MJ never won anything till Pip started playing at an all star and higher level.

I think it's unfair to hold that against Bron. He got no help in Clevland. He was never going to win a title with a Larry Hughes and old Big Z. And even when they had a budding player in Boozer, they bungled it.

I think it gets blown out of proportion because it was a tv show and so in your face with not 5, not 6 not 7 nonsense.

[stepic]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

I also think his legacy is slightly affected by joining the heat, but they're still lebrons titles. Of that big 3 in Miami he was clearly the best. Take him out and Wade and Bosh wouldn't have dominated anywhere as much.

[HomoSapien]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

HS, I certainly see your point but it's not like MJ drafted Pip, HG, Rodman, Kukoc and such. Every star has had another star with few exceptions. MJ never won anything till Pip started playing at an all star and higher level.

I think it's unfair to hold that against Bron. He got no help in Clevland. He was never going to win a title with a Larry Hughes and old Big Z. And even when they had a budding player in Boozer, they bungled it.

I think it gets blown out of proportion because it was a tv show and so in your face with not 5, not 6 not 7 nonsense.

Sure, you definitely need the right supporting cast but there will always be a big level of cheapness attached to what James did. I think it always will add an asterisks to his Heat championships.

[kyrv]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

HS, I certainly see your point but it's not like MJ drafted Pip, HG, Rodman, Kukoc and such. Every star has had another star with few exceptions. MJ never won anything till Pip started playing at an all star and higher level.

I think it's unfair to hold that against Bron. He got no help in Clevland. He was never going to win a title with a Larry Hughes and old Big Z. And even when they had a budding player in Boozer, they bungled it.

I think it gets blown out of proportion because it was a tv show and so in your face with not 5, not 6 not 7 nonsense.

Sure, you definitely need the right supporting cast but there will always be a big level of cheapness attached to what James did. I think it always will add an asterisks to his Heat championships.

They were assembled with the expectation of just running roughshod over the league. The fact that they barely won 2/4 is pretty telling and not good. I mean how do you lose to that Mavs team.

[Mbrahv0528]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

pretty much. although the spurs were incredible in the finals in that last heatles season. then again, the credit lebron gets for winning it all in cleveland was due in large part to steph curry playing badly

And the Draymond suspension, which was a bigger factor in the series loss.

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[TheGOATRises007]

To me, Lebron's biggest hit on his legacy is still the 2011 finals.

I just can't imagine Jordan ever playing that bad in a series where he was the 4TH BEST player in the series.

So Lebron can never be the GOAT to me, because he froze in 2011.

I have him 2nd.

[TheStig]

Michael's titles are his. He owns them. Lebron's first few titles are manufactured. It's hard to give him a ton of credit for getting bandwagon titles. Even less impressive that he's lost in the finals with such an amazing supporting cast.

HS, I certainly see your point but it's not like MJ drafted Pip, HG, Rodman, Kukoc and such. Every star has had another star with few exceptions. MJ never won anything till Pip started playing at an all star and higher level.

I think it's unfair to hold that against Bron. He got no help in Clevland. He was never going to win a title with a Larry Hughes and old Big Z. And even when they had a budding player in Boozer, they bungled it.

I think it gets blown out of proportion because it was a tv show and so in your face with not 5, not 6 not 7 nonsense.

Sure, you definitely need the right supporting cast but there will always be a big level of cheapness attached to what James did. I think it always will add an asterisks to his Heat championships.

I mean do you put an astrick next to the Lakers rings? Shaq was an FA and Kobe refused to go anywhere else. That's just as cheap.

I don't see the problem if Bron does the work or if a GM does it. The only thing I don't like about it, is that the players have an unfair advantage. They can recruit years in advance.

[TheStig]

HS, I certainly see your point but it's not like MJ drafted Pip, HG, Rodman, Kukoc and such. Every star has had another star with few exceptions. MJ never won anything till Pip started playing at an all star and higher level.

I think it's unfair to hold that against Bron. He got no help in Clevland. He was never going to win a title with a Larry Hughes and old Big Z. And even when they had a budding player in Boozer, they bungled it.

I think it gets blown out of proportion because it was a tv show and so in your face with not 5, not 6 not 7 nonsense.

Sure, you definitely need the right supporting cast but there will always be a big level of cheapness attached to what James did. I think it always will add an asterisks to his Heat championships.

They were assembled with the expectation of just running roughshod over the league. The fact that they barely won 2/4 is pretty telling and not good. I mean how do you lose to that Mavs team.

Exactly, the knock to his legacy is his playoff success. And that's not to say he isn't #2 all time. He is #2. That's just to say MJ was better at his peak, he was a killer and once Pip got good, he won.

[TheSuzerain]

To me, Lebron's biggest hit on his legacy is still the 2011 finals.

I just can't imagine Jordan ever playing that bad in a series where he was the 4TH BEST player in the series.

So Lebron can never be the GOAT to me, because he froze in 2011.

I have him 2nd.

Yeah that 2011 finals series is the black mark. Heat were clearly the best team that year.

On the other hand, beating the Warriors last season is arguably more impressive than any of Jordan's series wins. And if the Cavs topple the Warriors this season (unlikely), that's a hell of a feather to have in your cap.