Potential Zach Trade Partners? 24/25 Edition

[sco]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

I will grant that Zach is injury prone, but we're not bringing it up because he's going out in the trade, not coming in. If the point is that we may be overestimating Zach's trade value because he misses a lot of games with injuries...that may be factoring into things, to be sure, but IMO, GM's are focused on chronic injuries, which it's hard to say Zach is different from most guys.

[drosestruts]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

I will grant that Zach is injury prone, but we're not bringing it up because he's going out in the trade, not coming in. If the point is that we may be overestimating Zach's trade value because he misses a lot of games with injuries...that may be factoring into things, to be sure, but IMO, GM's are focused on chronic injuries, which it's hard to say Zach is different from most guys.

I also don't view Zach and MPJ has equal on the injury front. MPJ's injuries concern me far more.

Zach tore his ACL once and then also missed significant time having a surgery to remove loose bone fragments in his foot. Outside of that he's played through what I view as the normal amount of nagging things that every player deals with and manages occasionally with rest.

MPJ had his back flagged during the draft process and has had surgery on his back 3x. He also wears a custom ankle/foot brace and is the first player to ever need/use this type of brace and play basketball.

There's injuries and then there's reoccurring injuries on the same body part. The latter is for more concerning to me.

[kodo]

Why would Denver even want Zach? They're already a top5 offense. Their problems are defensively. Zach doesn't solve that.

Jokic has the most ridiculous on/off splits I've ever seen even by his standards. Denver's offensive rating is 126 when Jokic is on the court, but it drops to around 99 when he's on the bench. Denver has never had a great bench but the dropoff when Jokic isn't in the game has never been this big.

Murray isn't good enough to be the second-best player on a championship team right now. He hasn't been good since last season's playoffs. The Nuggets need more shot creation and Zach is probably the best guy they can get for MPJ's contract.

Agreed they basically lost because once Minny took Joker away with team defense, Minny was beyond terrible. Joker & Murray combined for 70 points in G7, Minny only scored 98, but Denver only managed 90 total even w/ the 70 from Joker-Murray.

If a team with the greatest offensive center in history can only score 90 points in today's NBA, that team is just plain bad and needs to be rebuilt around Joker. But Denver has no tradeable 1st rounders til 2029 and Murray is untradeable with his $50M per year contract.

They're also pretty set with Aaron Gordon & Braun out there for defense, which means the 3rd guy has to be a dynamic scorer. MPJ is is 92% assisted on 3s and even 84% assisted overall. He really is incredibly basic offensively. Lavine is one of the least assisted accurate 3P shooters in the league, and the guys better than him as unassisted shooters aren't available like Donovan Mitchell.

This non-Chicago article says Lavine to Denver is an obvious upgrade:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/evansidery/2024/12/19/should-the-denver-nuggets-significantly-shake-up-their-core/

For a Porter blockbuster deal for Denver, LaVine is the obvious match. And those talks continue on into the early portion of NBA trade season.
...
Why would the Nuggets feel comfortable swapping out Porter for LaVine? The on-ball creation from LaVine, and the heliocentric offense being built around Jokic, would be a beautiful synergetic match from an on-court standpoint.

Imagine Jokic running a hand-off flare action with LaVine running around him to get open. LaVine is one of the best in the Association at hand-off actions, shooting 66.7% in those situations this season but only attempting less than one per game. Compared to Murray and Porter, who are both shooting well below-average on higher volume, LaVine could be fully unlocked playing alongside Jokic in the Rocky Mountains.

Also, the Nuggets have been a complete disaster offensively whenever Jokic rests. Incredibly, the Nuggets rank No. 1 in offensive rating at 123.1 with Jokic on the court, but nosedive to the worst when he sits on the bench scoring only 96.3 points per 100 possessions. A massive gulf exists between how Denver operates with and without Jokic, so acquiring an alpha scorer who can take the burden off him appears necessary at this rate.

Lavine's potential has never been unlocked here because of our style of basketball. DHOs which is bread & butter for modern teams doesn't get used here. We're 28th in the league in DHOs. We're 28th in the league in off-ball screens. Lavine's value is as a shooter, but in Chicago to get any points you put your head down and dribble into traffic like Coby after a few drinks.

[Infinity2152]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

I will grant that Zach is injury prone, but we're not bringing it up because he's going out in the trade, not coming in. If the point is that we may be overestimating Zach's trade value because he misses a lot of games with injuries...that may be factoring into things, to be sure, but IMO, GM's are focused on chronic injuries, which it's hard to say Zach is different from most guys.

I don't even consider Zach injury prone, injuries happen randomly playing NBA level basketball over 10 years. I'm just saying I've seen "Zach is injury prone" a TON of times in this forum, and even if you consider his injury risk absolutely equal with MPJ, it still lowers MPJ's relative value. The primary advantage MPJ has is age, which generally correlates with health. So for the Bulls, if there's no expectation of more games played, MPJ would have to improve skill wise to even be worth Zach, let alone worth more than Zach. Personally, think Zach has a MUCH better chance of playing 65+ games the next 3-4 years than MPJ, barring a contact injury.

[Dez]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

[Clint Eastwood]

I could see why Denver would trade mpj for lavine especially if they dump njaji too. But it does very little for us. I still like lavine and this is almost a dump. And yet it might make us better in the short term as it balances the lineup and gives our other guards time to develop and shine. So I guess if that’s the only team interested, I would consider it if they add a first round pick or maybe strauther. Otherwise no thanks.

[MrSparkle]

I’m not nuts about a MPJ swap, but you could do a whole lot worse. It’s important to establish that Zach is both the better and healthier player (albeit marginal). I would expect some light draft compensation, and maybe throw in Craig, THT and Jevon for some of their complete scrubs.

[Muzbar]

I'm with Clint and MrSparkle.

I'm not thrilled with a Zach/MPJ trade but in the end if it makes the Bulls worse, ensuring they keep their pick the next couple of years, I'm not completely opposed.

However I think the only trade I'd accept would be Zach/Jevon/Torrey

For

MPJ/Zeke/Saric/Strawther/2031 FRP

Bulls need assets back in return and MPJ/Zeke aren't going to cut it.

[Chi town]

I'm with Clint and MrSparkle.

I'm not thrilled with a Zach/MPJ trade but in the end if it makes the Bulls worse, ensuring they keep their pick the next couple of years, I'm not completely opposed.

However I think the only trade I'd accept would be Zach/Jevon/Torrey

For

MPJ/Zeke/Saric/Strawther/2031 FRP

Bulls need assets back in return and MPJ/Zeke aren't going to cut it.

If you are eating Zeke’s contract you have to get an asset for that. Them eating Jevon’s contract helps. But I agree you need Strawher and a 1st.

Jevon and Craig would probably both be rotation players for them.

[Chi town]

The big question about an MPJ trade is what we could get for MPJ. If you could trade him for two maller contracts and coring at the same time and a 1st then you have to pull the trigger.

[sco]

The big question about an MPJ trade is what we could get for MPJ. If you could trade him for two maller contracts and coring at the same time and a 1st then you have to pull the trigger.

IMO MPJ's deal will be harder to move than Zach. He is making similar money and offers lower production. You might be able to trade him for a couple expirings, but doubtfully for a 1st.

[Chi town]

The big question about an MPJ trade is what we could get for MPJ. If you could trade him for two maller contracts and coring at the same time and a 1st then you have to pull the trigger.

IMO MPJ's deal will be harder to move than Zach. He is making similar money and offers lower production. You might be able to trade him for a couple expirings, but doubtfully for a 1st.

Maybe. He doesnt have the stigma Zach has had.

Shooting is also the greatest need in the league.

[Infinity2152]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

If any part of the reason people want Zach moved is because they think he's injury prone, why would it be a problem to say we'd be replacing him with a player that's injury prone also? Even if that's not the entire reason? If we're replacing Vuc, and the guy we're talking getting about doesn't play defense, you think it's not going to be mentioned? When talking about MPJ's value, what difference would it make if Zach is injury prone anyway? You could not want MPJ because of his injury concerns even if Zach played 82 games five years in a row. If we trade for Zion for instance, first thing mentioned will be his injury history, regardless of who we send out.

And Zach being at the same risk of being injured as MPJ is just wrong. MPJ has had three back surgeries, and he's a 6'10 wing. Zach's injuries are much more common and not to the same area. Unless you think MPJ's back is permanently healed and he won't need a fourth career ending back surgery, he's probably more likely to have a season long or career ending injury soon.

[DuckIII]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

Call me stupid then, because his back is one of several reasons why this potential trade is straight trash. Lavine’s injury history does not negate the chronic back problems of a young maxed player.

Hard, hard pass on any nonsense that sends out Zach for something much, much worse. The only reason this is even out there as a possibility is because we have the worst FO in the NBA that thinks they can feed us this tripe by calling it “but we got younger soup.”

[DuckIII]

For people trying to assess MPJ’s trade value, think of it this way. If you were not desperate to trade Lavine and “start over” (in quotes because that is not what trading for MPJ is), and that was not part of the math, what would you trade for him?

I wouldn’t touch him. I don’t even care what the trade package is. He’s on my stay away list.

[Dez]

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

Call me stupid then, because his back is one of several reasons why this potential trade is straight trash. Lavine’s injury history does not negate the chronic back problems of a young maxed player.

Hard, hard pass on any nonsense that sends out Zach for something much, much worse. The only reason this is even out there as a possibility is because we have the worst FO in the NBA and that thinks they can feed us this tripe by calling it “but we got younger soup.”

I'm not advocating for the trade but merely pointing out that health isn't a valid reason when Zach himself has had consistent knee issues since his ACL.

It's not something worse either, it's essentially the same. The difference in contracts reflects the difference between Zach and MPJ, however it boils down to shuffling deck chairs as both don't do anything for the current Bulls predicament.

[sco]

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

Call me stupid then, because his back is one of several reasons why this potential trade is straight trash. Lavine’s injury history does not negate the chronic back problems of a young maxed player.

Hard, hard pass on any nonsense that sends out Zach for something much, much worse. The only reason this is even out there as a possibility is because we have the worst FO in the NBA and that thinks they can feed us this tripe by calling it “but we got younger soup.”

I'm not advocating for the trade but merely pointing out that health isn't a valid reason when Zach himself has had consistent knee issues since his ACL.

It's not something worse either, it's essentially the same. The difference in contracts reflects the difference between Zach and MPJ, however it boils down to shuffling deck chairs as both don't do anything for the current Bulls predicament.

At this point I'm rooting for GS to get desperate enough to send us Kuminga or Podz in a Zach deal. At least they have decent upside.

[League Circles]

I'm with Clint and MrSparkle.

I'm not thrilled with a Zach/MPJ trade but in the end if it makes the Bulls worse, ensuring they keep their pick the next couple of years, I'm not completely opposed.

However I think the only trade I'd accept would be Zach/Jevon/Torrey

For

MPJ/Zeke/Saric/Strawther/2031 FRP

Bulls need assets back in return and MPJ/Zeke aren't going to cut it.

I would very strongly disagree that such a trade would "ensure" that we keep our pick over the next couple years.

[Stratmaster]

Why do people bring up health with MPJ? Zach isn't any better health-wise.

That's exactly the point. One of the main knocks on Lavine is "injury prone". If MPJ is equally "injury prone", what do you gain trading for him? The age difference keeps being brought up an advantage, main advantage of being younger is less injuries/healthier. Take that away, why would anybody want MPJ over Zach?

MPJ had serious injury issues even before he entered the league. Isn't that why he dropped in the draft in the first place? He's had at least three back surgeries already, he looks healthy enough now, but long term? Almost every player with multiple back surgeries has retired early.

Nobody said he wasn't injury prone, it's just stupid to use it as a reason when LaVine is just as bad if not worse.

Except Lavine has played in about 100 more games in the last 7 seasons than MPJ. But other than that...lol

[MGB8]

Zach + Craig for Porter Jr. + Nanaji + DaRon Holmes (+ a 1st and a couple of seconds) works, and probably would be my floor for a trade where Porter Jr. is the big piece coming back. Putting Holmes in there at least adds some potential.

Honestly, I’d probably try to route Porter Jr. elsewhere - Bulls already have enough weak-D players and can’t really handle another, and I would guess that there is at least one team out there who would view Porter Jr. as a good fit for their situation and give mid assets back. I think you would be stuck with Nnaji, though.