League Circles wrote:Infinity2152 wrote:League Circles wrote:Good points, though I do think you're overstating how good Lavine and especially Vuc are and frankly the news guys are playing about how they did last year more or less. There is a reason that Collins and Huerter are getting paid legit money. They're pretty decent.
I'm not trying to say that Giddey isn't improving us. Just trying to say we shouldn't be focusing entirely on his individual numbers. Teams defend to win the game, not to keep one guy from being 70% of a "walking triple double".
Not trying to overstate. I think comparing Zach to Huerter and Vuc to Collins is pretty evident. Zach Collins played 11 minutes a game this year with the Spurs, averaging 4.6 pts, 2.8 rbs, 1.4 assts 57 TS%. With Bulls, 25 mins, 12.2 pts, 8.5 rbs, 2.7 assts, 67 TS%.
His TS% last year was 54%. Huerter's numbers are roughly the same as with the Kings. I think you're underestimating the weight of losing your teams two most efficient high volume scorers should have on your offense. Don't care what bench players replace them, there's a reason some guys start and some guys stay on the bench. When Jimmy Butler beat the entire TWolves starting lineup with the bench players, that says something about Jimmy. If Giddey can keep the Bulls as efficient with Jones, Huerter and Collins as it was with Lavine and Vuc, that seems very valuable.
Again, Zach and Vuc's efficiency was also way higher playing with Giddey than last year. And we had the great, better player, better floor spacing Caruso then. Apparently, Vuc and Lavine should be guarded much tighter this year playing with Giddey, right? Since teams don't defend him? Shouldn't everybody but Giddey be shooting worse, not better?
Again, good points, but there's lots of factors. Giddey effectively replaced Demar who wasn't much of a guy to run an offense. Also Tre Jones has been a lot better than Patrick and essentially replaced him since the trade. My only point is that until and unless a team offense is actually outright good, we shouldn't draw firm conclusions about how good any one player is. Even then of course you can't purely isolate. Good or even great players can be on bad teams or offenses, but good numbers on a bad team isn't always about the other guys. This is why I mostly use eye test for anything holistic.
I'm hearing you my brother. Can we agree that there's no way the offense should realistically be expected to be better swapping those guys? Regardless of the results and why, no one would think BEFORE THE TRADE if you swap this year's Zach and Vuc for this year's Collins, Huerter and Jones, the result would be a more efficient offense? Not trying to put words in your mouth, but the general tone (not your tone specifically) was we'd lose every game damn near just losing Zach, let alone Vuc. People are mad we somehow keep winning. Blaming AK for somehow not putting an even worse surrounding cast around Giddey so we can lose more. Losses are supposed to be guaranteed with no Zach or Vuc, that's why the huge push to trade them quickly.
As for Tre Jones, I'd say most of his minutes are coming in Zach's place, not Pat's. Pat's absence means Matas gets more minutes, Giddey gets more minutes and is effectively playing PF or SF. Coby's playing SG in Zach's place, Jones playing PG in Coby's place.
The last month or so is also the first time in his career Giddey has actually had the chance to lead an offense. I attribute at least some of his improvement to the fact he's actually getting to play as a lead guard (or lead forward effectively with the Bulls mostly, lol)
Not saying he's a one man team, or a savior, but the team seems to flow a lot better with worse actual players. Ok players they might be, but I wouldn't say Collins is better than Smith, let alone Vuc. We have about 6 guards better than Huerter, and 3-4 better than Jones. Lavine was our top guard. I'm excited to have a young player who seems to get better the more responsibility he has. Lot of weight for a 22 year old on a brand new team. If he sits the rest of the season, don't think we win a single game from here on out. Unless it's against the Wizards, Jazz or Hornets, lmao! That's my view of his impact, outside of stats.
