Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[NecessaryEvil]

I wouldn't worry about it. Jimmy ain't going nowhere

They overvalued assets before, imagine what they'd want for starting all-star forward/top 5 two way player?

Bulls need to get Boston for EVERYTHING they got. Crowder/Brown & both of those Nets picks. I could care less about the rest of that roster.

[kingkirk]

If the Bulls somehow end up with Markelle Fultz because of this, it will suck to lose Butler, but I won't be crying or thinking the sky is falling if he were to be moved.

[RedBulls23]

For as strong as this next draft is suppose to be, I rarely hear anything about these guys coming out next year. You always hear about the big names like Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, KAT, Simmons etc. just as recent examples.

I'm wondering if this draft is just being over hyped.

[GimmeDat]

For as strong as this next draft is suppose to be, I rarely hear anything about these guys coming out next year. You always hear about the big names like Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, KAT, Simmons etc. just as recent examples.

I'm wondering if this draft is just being over hyped.

Perhaps it's just too early in the year for college names to be swirling around in the media too much, but the consensus is, based on college play, the class is living up to the hype.

We always see over the top NBA comparisons, but I can realistically say that Fultz looks like a star (maybe a longer Brandon Roy), Smith looks like the next great guard to come out (somewhere between Bledsoe and Lillard), Ball the next stellar pass-1st PG (shades of Jason Kidd), and Jackson an athletic jack of all trades (prime Igoudala with an even higher ceiling if the jumper improves).

A bunch of great guys after that in Tatum, Monk, Isaac, etc., the list goes on. There's no real hyped up guy that's disappointed outside of Giles, who unfortunately after multiple knee surgeries, has gone from a likely #1 pick to looking more like a rotational NBA big.

For a bit of perspective, I would say Simmons would go maybe 2 or 3 and Ingram 5 or maybe even later. Guys like Brown, Bender and Dunn would probably be in the mid to late lottery (8-15).

Basically, if we had the Brooklyn 2017 pick, we'd be looking at one of these 4 (this is accounting for the possibility for the pick to fall a bit if teams leapfrog them in the lottery, which is unlikely). -

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[Rerisen]

Yeah this will kick up the dead horse tank arguments but absolutely nothing is different in reality before/after this idle speculation from some other execs.

Eh...I certainly think it's more plausible now that a trade could go down either at the deadline or in the off-season, than it was earlier this month. Plenty has happened in the past week for the FO to want to trade Jimmy, and them being able to convince JR that it's the right move and this is all "Jimmy's fault."

Gar or Pax I can buy wanting to, but so long as we have a playoff seed, can't see Jerry being convinced to blow it up and enter years of potential no man's land or missed playoffs.

He might have extreme loyalty to GarPax so long as they are making playoff profits for him, but I think that loyalty would be tested severely without that.

[Bulls_Fan]

I've been saying for weeks you can't go wrong with with either Fultz, Ball, or Smith. I got a bunch of Washington games DVR'd and its fun watching Fultz play. He is so smooth out there and doesn't get rattled.

Would love to see what those guys could do in a opened-up Hoiberg style offense.

[Bulls_Fan]

Report: Bulls, Celtics may rekindle trade talks for Jimmy Butler
http://www.thescore.com/news/1221137



http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-denzel-valentine-trying-season-20170130-story.html
According to KC

Not criticizing you for posting it, but this isn't a material report of any sort. It just says some rival executives believe the two teams might rekindle talks. Well no ****. Of course logical people believe they might rekindle talks. No need to be a rival GM and no new information. It might as well read "league observers can imagine something that makes sense for us all to imagine."

KC is learning the media game though. When in doubt, say that someone important believes something interesting might happen.

Yeah this will kick up the dead horse tank arguments but absolutely nothing is different in reality before/after this idle speculation from some other execs.

I give this more credence as KC is not the typical reporter who will pass around idle chat. Usually he goes out of his way to shoot down rumors and talk around the league. Here he is adding fuel to the fire.

[Bulls_Fan]

I don't trust the front office anymore no matter what direction they choose.

I loss hope and trust with the front office in retooling and I don't really trust this front office in rebuilding either.

Say all u want about rebuilding or retooling but with this current front office it is going to be the same result and it's not what we wanted. We need a new front office badly too bad that is not going to happen anytime soon.

My preference of course is retooling and build talent around Jimmy Butler.

GarPax have really screwed up this team the past 3 years. I've wanted Paxson gone for years. All that being said, i'm still in favor of a rebuild. I wish it was under a new regime, but we all know JR won't fire anyone and at worst, Gar is the fall guy w/ Paxson still in charge.

Trading Jimmy is not an indictment on Jimmy as a player or leader IMO. To me, it's an admission that you screwed up the roster so much that the only way out of it is to blow it up.

I've looked at Free Agency and I can't put together a team that competes. We see posts all the time about Hayward, Chris Paul, Griffin, Ibaka, etc coming to Chicago. None of that is happening. We will be fighting with 29 other teams for the same medicore players who don't move the needle.

I'd love for anyone to look at the free agency and or REALISTIC potential trades we could make to retool this roster that competes for a title. I think Paxson realizes that they cannot and will come to the conclusion that they have to blow it up.

[DanTown8587]

The Celtics have to take Lopez, give back Brown + both Nets picks, and the Wolves #2 in 2017. Then I'm in on a rebuild.

Do Wade to Denver for Nelson, Miller, #2 (via Memphis) + #2 (via OKC)

Then cut Rondo.

Tank out the year, get a middle lottery pick for your efforts hopefully (6-11)

Sign a few cheap but long term deals in FA (Ian Clark, Felicio, Jeff Withey)

Take another shot in the 2018 draft with hopefully two top 10 picks (one super top pick via Brooklyn or Chicago).

[Proven_Winner]

I definitely can see the appeal in the thought of grabbing 2 lottery picks this year. The only problem is image for us and is this FO going to half ass it. If you trade Jimmy then Taj and niko need to leave too. Might as well tank hard and collect assets.

As much as people whine about rebuilds taking too long it's not always that bad. I mean we haven't truly tanked or sucked really bad for a long time and here we are with no progress.

Jimmy is great but he's not untouchable and this team hasn't went anywhere since his climb to stardom. People have to look at this both ways. Yes rebuilds take long and sometimes don't work but there's just as many situations as ours where teams know they suck and repeatedly year after year scrap just to be out of the playoffs and get a late lottery pick. Look at the grizzlies. When's the last time they've had a really high lottery pick? They got lucky like us that they found a diamond in the rough.

I'm not saying trading jimmy is our only option but it is an appealing one that makes sense. Now of course we could always try to attract FA but if you already dislike the FO why would you trust them to build around jimmy when they couldn't for derrick? Basically what I'm trying to say is there is a downfall to both tanking or not taking in our situation so people should not be against any option of trading jimmy or keeping him.

[NecessaryEvil]

I don't trust the front office anymore no matter what direction they choose.

I loss hope and trust with the front office in retooling and I don't really trust this front office in rebuilding either.

Say all u want about rebuilding or retooling but with this current front office it is going to be the same result and it's not what we wanted. We need a new front office badly too bad that is not going to happen anytime soon.

My preference of course is retooling and build talent around Jimmy Butler.

GarPax have really screwed up this team the past 3 years. I've wanted Paxson gone for years. All that being said, i'm still in favor of a rebuild. I wish it was under a new regime, but we all know JR won't fire anyone and at worst, Gar is the fall guy w/ Paxson still in charge.

Trading Jimmy is not an indictment on Jimmy as a player or leader IMO. To me, it's an admission that you screwed up the roster so much that the only way out of it is to blow it up.

I've looked at Free Agency and I can't put together a team that competes. We see posts all the time about Hayward, Chris Paul, Griffin, Ibaka, etc coming to Chicago. None of that is happening. We will be fighting with 29 other teams for the same medicore players who don't move the needle.

I'd love for anyone to look at the free agency and or REALISTIC potential trades we could make to retool this roster that competes for a title. I think Paxson realizes that they cannot and will come to the conclusion that they have to blow it up.

I heard you. I guess looking at it like that, it makes sense.

But to have ur best 2-guard since Jordan in Butler & a top 3 SG of all time in Wade, I feel like they deserve atleast a season or two to be built around.

I do like Lonzo ball alot though. Kid is super exciting to watch but in my eyes we aren't that far off. Jimmy is a top 3 player in the east and Lebron is getting older. FO needs to make their best moves within the next two yrs and I believe we'll have a chance to get to the finals.

That's just me though. You never know who may become available via trade.

[League Circles]

Not criticizing you for posting it, but this isn't a material report of any sort. It just says some rival executives believe the two teams might rekindle talks. Well no ****. Of course logical people believe they might rekindle talks. No need to be a rival GM and no new information. It might as well read "league observers can imagine something that makes sense for us all to imagine."

KC is learning the media game though. When in doubt, say that someone important believes something interesting might happen.

Yeah this will kick up the dead horse tank arguments but absolutely nothing is different in reality before/after this idle speculation from some other execs.

I give this more credence as KC is not the typical reporter who will pass around idle chat. Usually he goes out of his way to shoot down rumors and talk around the league. Here he is adding fuel to the fire.

Give what more credence? This "report" has zero content. Besides the fact that it is sourced from rival executives rather than the Bulls or Celtics orgs, the words "believe" and "may" make it clear that there is nothing to report. I mean, the alternative would be "rival executives are sure there is no way the Bulls and Celtics will rekindle talks", which would make no sense. Believing that something may happen is meaningless.

[chitowndish]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

I guess I'm in the camp where I'd keep Jimmy and try and build a team around him. It's pretty cheap to do if you think about it, the same type of team you build around Rose, defenders and shooters which are pretty easy to find. Just build a grind it out team that can keep it close and let Jimmy take over. We honestly have most of the players for it already, Lopez and Taj fit and Wade isn't great anymore but he works as the secondary ball handler we could never find to take pressure off of Rose. Get a pass first defensive PG who can shoot, a defensive grind it out coach and we're a pretty good team with a lot of the pieces we already have. If we can do that and upgrade a starter position with a good 2 way player that can shoot things start to get interesting. I think that kind of team is right in this ownership's wheelhouse too (regardless of the GM this ownership drives a ton of decisions) it just happens to be the exact opposite of what we have been building the past couple years. Although I we really haven't actually moved much in that direction as an organization anyway, if anything with Wade and Rondo we're even less of a "Hoiball" team than the team that was specifically built for Thibs. It's almost like the team we are building is pretty much the opposite team from what Hoiberg should be coaching.

I have my questions about Jimmy's leadership as well but I think we'd be doing ourself a big disservice if we didn't try it and see what would happen. Problem is if Jimmy leaked that article about being threatened in contract negotiations I think he's just flat out done here, Jerry isn't going to stand for being publicly humiliated like that. Of course that could also be a sign that Jimmy wants out, i'd imagine a nice long playoff run on the Celtics and years of challenging LeBron is looking pretty good right about now and that leak would be a pretty sure fire ticket out of town with Reinsdorf.

[DuckIII]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

That's a good point about the Knicks, so the Bulls need to avoid that game. Melo is a trash asset compared to Butler. But I could understand the Celtics going that route knowing that Phil would trade him for a lot less than the Bulls would trade Butler. Makes some sense for Ainge.

So the Bulls can't play that game. To me Butler has played at such a high level that now two options are perfectly reasonable.

1. If Boston, or someone else but really only Boston appears to have the assets, will give it up to the tune of at the absolute minimum 2017 Nets pick, Brown and players, trade Butler and start over.

2. If the Bulls have to compromise, keep Butler, take a run at 2017 free agency.

There is no definitive "must keep Butler" or "must trade Butler" position that holds up to real scrutiny. It's a very, very close call that will be decided by context.

[Mech Engineer]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

That's a good point about the Knicks, so the Bulls need to avoid that game. Melo is a trash asset compared to Butler. But I could understand the Celtics going that route knowing that Phil would trade him for a lot less than the Bulls would trade Butler. Makes some sense for Ainge.

So the Bulls can't play that game. To me Butler has played at such a high level that now two options are perfectly reasonable.

1. If Boston, or someone else but really only Boston appears to have the assets, will give it up to the tune of at the absolute minimum 2017 Nets pick, Brown and players, trade Butler and start over.

2. If the Bulls have to compromise, keep Butler, take a run at 2017 free agency.

There is no definitive "must keep Butler" or "must trade Butler" position that holds up to real scrutiny. It's a very, very close call that will be decided by context.

Boston has an advantage here. They can get Melo for cheap with bad contracts but they get to keep the good contracts/good draft picks. If Melo works out, it's great. If not, they can still make a trade for someone like Jimmy/Cousins with the draft picks/good contracts.

And, Melo has only 2 more years after this year. He becomes an expiring in a year and a half.

[Proven_Winner]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

That's a good point about the Knicks, so the Bulls need to avoid that game. Melo is a trash asset compared to Butler. But I could understand the Celtics going that route knowing that Phil would trade him for a lot less than the Bulls would trade Butler. Makes some sense for Ainge.

So the Bulls can't play that game. To me Butler has played at such a high level that now two options are perfectly reasonable.

1. If Boston, or someone else but really only Boston appears to have the assets, will give it up to the tune of at the absolute minimum 2017 Nets pick, Brown and players, trade Butler and start over.

2. If the Bulls have to compromise, keep Butler, take a run at 2017 free agency.

There is no definitive "must keep Butler" or "must trade Butler" position that holds up to real scrutiny. It's a very, very close call that will be decided by context.

Does melo want to go to Boston? At the end of the day he controls that trade. I mean we don't even know if he wants to play in the east since there's a rumor he wants to be on the clippers. So I mean we hold all the cards in this situation. Jimmy is the better player and melo would have to waive his no trade.

[TheSuzerain]

Dude if you look at the last 5 years we may be the worst drafting team. It's all about which time frame you choose.

If you want to judge Paxson's draft history, you have to use his entire history back to 2003, not just the last five years.

If you want to judge GarPax's draft history, you have to go back to 2009, not just the last 5 years.

If you want to "choose a time frame", from 2003 to 2009 the Bulls were easily #2 at worst behind San Antonio (and I'd have to check their record in that time frame).

Well if you want to judge his/their draft history you have to also take in consideration Paxson had a ton of lottery picks(high lottery picks) for the first 4-6 years and don't forget that #2 overall pick in 2006. People seem to forget all those "good players" were taken in the lottery and then the happy birthday here's the #1 overall pick when they should have had the 9th.

Even when adjusting for draft position, we basically trounce every other team in terms of getting value from the draft.

And guys like Butler, Asik, Duhon, and Gibson weren't early picks.

[Ralphb07]

This situation worries me because NYK is trying to unload Melo and Boston is the obvious trade partner so I could just see our FO freak out thinking they are going to lose out. Add into it that I think Gar is a horrible GM and I just feel like we're walking into a buzzsaw here. Ainge will just play us and the Knicks off of each other till he gets the offer he wants.

That's a good point about the Knicks, so the Bulls need to avoid that game. Melo is a trash asset compared to Butler. But I could understand the Celtics going that route knowing that Phil would trade him for a lot less than the Bulls would trade Butler. Makes some sense for Ainge.

So the Bulls can't play that game. To me Butler has played at such a high level that now two options are perfectly reasonable.

1. If Boston, or someone else but really only Boston appears to have the assets, will give it up to the tune of at the absolute minimum 2017 Nets pick, Brown and players, trade Butler and start over.

2. If the Bulls have to compromise, keep Butler, take a run at 2017 free agency.

There is no definitive "must keep Butler" or "must trade Butler" position that holds up to real scrutiny. It's a very, very close call that will be decided by context.

Minny has the assets too. Boston and Minnesota have been the teams my money has been on if they trade him

[AirP.]

Even when adjusting for draft position, we basically trounce every other team in terms of getting value from the draft.

And guys like Butler, Asik, Duhon, and Gibson weren't early picks.

Well... as much as people like Taj because he plays hard and has good defense the FO has never really felt comfortable long term to say he's our starter. Also... Taj cost Thabo which ended up being a starter for a finals team and over probably had a better career then Taj. The trade to get Taj for Brewer was good though.

Asik, they wouldn't even pay 8 million annually(poison pill), they could have handled the salary if they wanted.

Chris Duhon? He wasn't a good starter, he was below average.

People have just overvalued Chicago's players, Chicago had a ton of lottery, very high picks the first half of Paxson's tenure.

Does Chicago trounce Seattle/OKC I don't think so, there's
C.Payne 14th - Young but has upside.
Stephen Adams 12th
Westbrook 4th
Hardin 3rd
KD 2nd

Ibaka 24th
Reggie Jackson 24th

Q.Pondexter 26th
Alex Abrines 32nd - In his rookie year now.

Drafting is so hit and miss but there are some players who are close to can't miss near the top. Get a bunch of high picks and hopefully a couple of them become impact players you can build around.

[DroseReturnChi]

For as strong as this next draft is suppose to be, I rarely hear anything about these guys coming out next year. You always hear about the big names like Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, KAT, Simmons etc. just as recent examples.

I'm wondering if this draft is just being over hyped.

2017 and 2018 drafts are the least I would worry about. In 2017, I see at least 5 all stars coming out. You cant really go wrong with Fultz/Smith/Jackson/Ball/Tatum and bunch of other prospects in the top 8. Really low bust potential although there seems to be less superstars.