Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[DanTown8587]

I'm just curious, is there *anyone* who is saying that what Butler said was good form on his part?

Some people may think he was correct in his evaluation but that isn't the same as being correct in his method for delivering it.

Given that we all agree that Jimmy was wrong to go public like this, I'll ask someone like Musiq:
- Do you believe the FO planted KC's reports as retaliation?
- If so, do you believe that was the correct thing to do, given the situation?

For the record, Jimmy said what he said after a game and was obviously frustrated with the way the B2B went. Now, that's not excusing what he said and how but it at least speaks to the "well that probably was frustration more than it was some calculated move". The FO move clearly was done with calculating means and was meant to undercut a PLAYER. He's already below Fred and the FO on the hierarchy.

Also, this is what JR said in the Thibs dismissal

The Chicago Bulls have a history of achieving great success on and off the court. These accomplishments have been possible because of an organizational culture where input from all parts of the organization has been welcomed and valued, there has been a willingness to participate in a free flow of information, and there have been clear and consistent goals. While the head of each department of the organization must be free to make final decisions regarding his department, there must be free and open interdepartmental discussion and consideration of everyone's ideas and opinions. These internal discussions must not be considered an invasion of turf, and must remain private. Teams that consistently perform at the highest levels are able to come together and be unified across the organization-staff, players, coaches, management and ownership. When everyone is on the same page, trust develops and teams can grow and succeed together. Unfortunately, there has been a departure from this culture.

While Jimmy broke that bond with what he said, how do you think he feels NOW? This could have been an incredibly great teachable moment between Fred/the FO/Jimmy in terms of how to lead and how to handle the new media pressures that come with being "the guy". Instead, the FO threw him under the bus and then back it over him. As much as we said Wade was stupid to say what he did regarding the "loyalty" comment, you see actions like this and it just gives the Wade's of the world more ammunition while making it harder to defend the FO.

As much as I think they've done a good job assembling rosters, you simply don't see this kind of leaks from the stable organizations in the league. This is something we see in Sacramento; shouldn't be another time the FO has leaked something to diminish a player on it's roster.

[musiqsoulchild]

I'm just curious, is there *anyone* who is saying that what Butler said was good form on his part?

Some people may think he was correct in his evaluation but that isn't the same as being correct in his method for delivering it.

Given that we all agree that Jimmy was wrong to go public like this, I'll ask someone like Musiq:
- Do you believe the FO planted KC's reports as retaliation?
- If so, do you believe that was the correct thing to do, given the situation?

Direct answers to your question:

1) I do not think that the FO keeps tabs on things like " Jimmy is practicing by himself ". I, of course, do not know the inner workings of this FO --- BUT I know the inner workings of several Executives. They DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING about the operational details. They have a general sense - but their interference in any operational matters is MOSTLY strategic and not tactical.

What I believe happened is this: After Jimmy created the storyline, any sensible sports reporter would smell the story and go to the "other side" to get some information. The fact that the other side was able to pass on the information implies that there was NO special steps taken by Gar to control the message. Typically, if there is a controversy in a company, if the Executive deems it a BIG ENOUGH issue --- they will organize a quick conference all with ALL EMPLOYEES and essentially ask that no one speak to the media and that all questions concerning the conroversial issue be directed to the Communications expert in the company or a Spokesperson.

The fact that there was no such message management or a gag order means one of 2 things:
1) The issue wasnt a big enough deal to register for Gar and Pax. Maybe a quick 5 minute call with Jimmy, Happy and Fred on the phone and ask them to sort it out.

2) Gar tacitly didnt do anything and let information pass freely --- by not denying communication access to the media. I find this doubtful...just because this is not really a big deal.

Coming to your second question which I think I have answered already:

I think there is a lower probability that Gar was sending this info along.....but if that is indeed the case, then Gar is an insecure piece of crap.

I could go on more...but RealGM has a swear filter.

[TheStig]

I am sorry that you see it that way - I dont see this as having 2 opposite views.

I see it as some fans on our board being happy that someone with power (Jimmy in this case) unlike us poor saps - who can only write Millions of words but to no avail ----- is saying something publicly about how the coach is not doing a good job.

And the coach is a proxy to this segment of fans --- a proxy for GarPax. So, if this coach fails or is ridiculed --- then by proxy this FO has failed.

Which, is a juicy, succulent outcome for some of us.

For me personally - if the FO fails - more than anyone else failing including Rose etc - we'd have to go through SO MUCH CHANGE.

I'd rather have a successful FO than the hope for a great one. Because with the hope for a great FO comes OKC and Houston. "Great" FO execs like Sam Presti and Daryl Morey and Doc Rivers are EATING it now for several seasons.

Where did he say Hoiberg was doing a bad job or was not a good coach? He just wanted everyone to be pushed harder.

It's not about toppling the FO. Its not about their public humiliation. They're not some evil 3rd world regime. IIt's like in any business, you have to work on your weaknesses and develop them. You can't sit on your previous achievements (which aren't really that good to begin with) and continue down the same path.

GarPax clearly have to work on acquiring top tier talent, trades and relationships with their subordinates (coaches, assistants and players). I just want to hold them accountable for that and see it improve. My problem with them is that they have no entrenched themselves in a position that it won't happen. It's like some old family business owner that says I've been selling x since 1962 this way and then doesn't understand why Walmart wiped him out.

You're fundamental view is that you like a consistently good product but not great. I like the highs and will suffer through the lows for a great product. I'd rather have the dynasty Bulls and then the 8 years after than 10 years of this and hoping Bron isn't there for us at the end of our playoff runs every year.

Saw your edit --- except in our case, there is no WALMART.

Heck we ourselves are like Costco or something --- we are 2nd in our industry ( the NBA). Maybe 3rd.

In profits, sure. But is that due to what the Bulls do in management or on the court? Or is it due to market and a dynasty that predates all of GarPax's management acumen being used? The Bulls were always top 3 in revenue post dynasty. Even when Krause had the worst teams in the league.

But my statement was in regards to what we see on the court. We are not top 3 and haven't been since MJ.

[musiqsoulchild]

As much as I think they've done a good job assembling rosters, you simply don't see this kind of leaks from the stable organizations in the league. This is something we see in Sacramento; shouldn't be another time the FO has leaked something to diminish a player on it's roster.

I agree with this a 100%.

Its either that our media is pretty Fing awesome ( like SacBee used to be)....OR our people are way too political ( also a Chicago way of doing business).

For example: I still dont understand why Paxson couldnt publicly say they mishandled the Deng situation --- WHEN Deng was ACTUALLY on the team.

He only did that the offseason after Deng left.

[musiqsoulchild]

Where did he say Hoiberg was doing a bad job or was not a good coach? He just wanted everyone to be pushed harder.

It's not about toppling the FO. Its not about their public humiliation. They're not some evil 3rd world regime. IIt's like in any business, you have to work on your weaknesses and develop them. You can't sit on your previous achievements (which aren't really that good to begin with) and continue down the same path.

GarPax clearly have to work on acquiring top tier talent, trades and relationships with their subordinates (coaches, assistants and players). I just want to hold them accountable for that and see it improve. My problem with them is that they have no entrenched themselves in a position that it won't happen. It's like some old family business owner that says I've been selling x since 1962 this way and then doesn't understand why Walmart wiped him out.

You're fundamental view is that you like a consistently good product but not great. I like the highs and will suffer through the lows for a great product. I'd rather have the dynasty Bulls and then the 8 years after than 10 years of this and hoping Bron isn't there for us at the end of our playoff runs every year.

Saw your edit --- except in our case, there is no WALMART.

Heck we ourselves are like Costco or something --- we are 2nd in our industry ( the NBA). Maybe 3rd.

In profits, sure. But is that due to what the Bulls do in management or on the court? Or is it due to market and a dynasty that predates all of GarPax's management acumen being used? The Bulls were always top 3 in revenue post dynasty. Even when Krause had the worst teams in the league.

But my statement was in regards to what we see on the court. We are not top 3 and haven't been since MJ.

It was a **** franchise before Jerry brought it in 1984 (I think).

Reinsdorf has made WAY more right moves than he has WRONG moves.

All decision making AND management is probabilistic. Meaning, if I decide to have a coffee now --- it may not be tasty. But, I'll have it ANYWAY, because more often than not my coffee vending machine spews out garbage that is palatable.

You cant GUARANTEE things in decison making or management. That is NOT a luxury folks have when they have hundreds of families depending on their decisions in order to support salaries and incomes.

[TheStig]

I am sorry that you see it that way - I dont see this as having 2 opposite views.

I see it as some fans on our board being happy that someone with power (Jimmy in this case) unlike us poor saps - who can only write Millions of words but to no avail ----- is saying something publicly about how the coach is not doing a good job.

And the coach is a proxy to this segment of fans --- a proxy for GarPax. So, if this coach fails or is ridiculed --- then by proxy this FO has failed.

Which, is a juicy, succulent outcome for some of us.

For me personally - if the FO fails - more than anyone else failing including Rose etc - we'd have to go through SO MUCH CHANGE.

I'd rather have a successful FO than the hope for a great one. Because with the hope for a great FO comes OKC and Houston. "Great" FO execs like Sam Presti and Daryl Morey and Doc Rivers are EATING it now for several seasons.

Where did he say Hoiberg was doing a bad job or was not a good coach? He just wanted everyone to be pushed harder.

It's not about toppling the FO. Its not about their public humiliation. They're not some evil 3rd world regime. IIt's like in any business, you have to work on your weaknesses and develop them. You can't sit on your previous achievements (which aren't really that good to begin with) and continue down the same path.

GarPax clearly have to work on acquiring top tier talent, trades and relationships with their subordinates (coaches, assistants and players). I just want to hold them accountable for that and see it improve. My problem with them is that they have no entrenched themselves in a position that it won't happen. It's like some old family business owner that says I've been selling x since 1962 this way and then doesn't understand why Walmart wiped him out.

You're fundamental view is that you like a consistently good product but not great. I like the highs and will suffer through the lows for a great product. I'd rather have the dynasty Bulls and then the 8 years after than 10 years of this and hoping Bron isn't there for us at the end of our playoff runs every year.

I dont fault you for saying that ---- thats EXACTLY what a fan should say.

No good business will apply that model though.

The ones that do are those that are positioning themselves to be sold or to be leveraged. That is actually terrible business --- its so bad for the families of employees that work for a business.

A good business should provide NOT only a service/product that people will buy but also take care of its employees. We have consistently done that by maintaining constant success.

Do you own shares of the Bulls? Because I'm fairly sure we are both just fans. The Business model doesn't really factor into it from a fans perspective.

That being said, it would take a really wreckless owner/GM to make this team unprofitable. Due to the market and dynasty reputation, virtually anyone could run that Business at a profit. I would view it pretty safely that the team could make more off a championship or finals appearances than it has by skirting the LT. So in that respect, they really just took the safe route. But applauding them for big profits is silly. The kid with the lemonade stand in times square will crush the kid with the lemonade stand out in the country.

[Eesee1]

Something I haven't seen mentioned about Lowe's article:

There was much praise for Noah when he seemingly accepted his demotion to the bench without complaining, "for the good of the team." Now we read that Noah and others were pissed about Niko starting over him.

Put this together with Jo telling Hoiberg in the offseason he and Taj play best together. A possible bid for them to start, or at least get the majority of the minutes?

Then Noah isn't supportive at all of Jimmy's statements and portrays himself as the vet who's telling Butler how he should act. Jimmy didn't sound as if he appreciated Noah's advice-giving getting out to the media. "He didn't tell me anything I didn't already know."

I'm concerned there is an old guard/new blood conflict going on here. The rumored dealing of Taj or Noah might quell this a bit.

Rose, Noah and Gasol are also playing for contracts, so they're trying to make themselves look as good as possible.

[TheStig]

Saw your edit --- except in our case, there is no WALMART.

Heck we ourselves are like Costco or something --- we are 2nd in our industry ( the NBA). Maybe 3rd.

In profits, sure. But is that due to what the Bulls do in management or on the court? Or is it due to market and a dynasty that predates all of GarPax's management acumen being used? The Bulls were always top 3 in revenue post dynasty. Even when Krause had the worst teams in the league.

But my statement was in regards to what we see on the court. We are not top 3 and haven't been since MJ.

It was a **** franchise before Jerry brought it in 1984 (I think).

Reinsdorf has made WAY more right moves than he has WRONG moves.

All decision making AND management is probabilistic. Meaning, if I decide to have a coffee now --- it may not be tasty. But, I'll have it ANYWAY, because more often than not my coffee vending machine spews out garbage that is palatable.

You cant GUARANTEE things in decison making or management. That is NOT a luxury folks have when they have hundreds of families depending on their decisions in order to support salaries and incomes.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

MJ drafted June 1984.

JR Buys Bulls March 1985.

It was pretty hard to screw up with the goat. Sure he has done good things, I'm not sure how this became a JR debate. My points were exclusively around GarPax's performance. I don't think JR is really all that involved anymore to be honest. He gets in when he has to.

[musiqsoulchild]

Something I haven't seen mentioned about Lowe's article:

There was much praise for Noah when he seemingly accepted his demotion to the bench without complaining, "for the good of the team." Now we read that Noah and others were pissed about Niko starting over him.

Put this together with Jo telling Hoiberg in the offseason he and Taj play best together. A possible bid for them to start, or at least get the majority of the minutes?

Then Noah isn't supportive at all of Jimmy's statements and portrays himself as the vet who's telling Butler how he should act. Jimmy didn't sound as if he appreciated Noah's advice-giving getting out to the media. "He didn't tell me anything I didn't already know."

I'm concerned there is an old guard/new blood conflict going on here. The rumored dealing of Taj or Noah might quell this.

There is absolutely an old guard / younger players dynamic at play here. I just wrote a lengthy post on it.

The issue I think is best described by a 2 by 2 matrix. Let he 2 variables be ENGAGEMENT to the teams success and Youth/Vets.

There are some HIGHLY engaged vets ( Noah. Taj, Kirk, Dunleavy).
There are some LOW engagement vets ( Pau , Rose )
There are some HIGH engagement youngsters ( Jimmy, Doug, Bobby)
There are some LOW engagement youngsters ( Snell, Niko)

Thats the issue.....if we can reduce the 2 variables to just 1, that would be a HUGE win for team chemistry.

[Rerisen]

Jimmy basically ran into the public square and shouted the house is on fire.

He's wrong for shouting it there, as its not going to put it out, in fact it will just keep raging. He should have ran to the firehouse (the players and staff). Though sadly they already know it is too.

So mistake by Jimmy, but the biggest deal in it all is of course that... the house is on fire!

Except, when the fire department came --- they spoke to the owners of the place.

The building was set on fire (parts of it) in order to quickly raze it and re-build ( this offseason).

The owners had a wrecking crew already in place --- but some malcontents came in and created a fire in the vacant building.

Thats actually much closer to the truth. There is very little of value in that house. Thats whay Jimmy is kind of like "Why isnt ANYONE else seeing what I am seeing?". Its the other way around --- its Jimmy who isnt seeing what everyone else is seeing.

This is a team in transition. There's TyVek sheeting across the entire first floor of the house. It'll be complete by August, 2016 and Jimmy can move back into his palatial master suite afterwards.

I need to get off the fire analogy a minute here. I know what you are saying, but regardless if we want conveniently forget that the FO felt we had a championship core here (as reported by mouthpiece KC) and suddenly pretend this season is all about preparing a transition - it's still a big mistake to let your team culture go to crap.

Butler is trying to preserve that by wanting everyone to buy into the gameplan and play hard each and every night. That is something you should want for your team regardless if the current season isn't about winning it all, or if big changes are envisioned for the next seaon.

[musiqsoulchild]

In profits, sure. But is that due to what the Bulls do in management or on the court? Or is it due to market and a dynasty that predates all of GarPax's management acumen being used? The Bulls were always top 3 in revenue post dynasty. Even when Krause had the worst teams in the league.

But my statement was in regards to what we see on the court. We are not top 3 and haven't been since MJ.

It was a **** franchise before Jerry brought it in 1984 (I think).

Reinsdorf has made WAY more right moves than he has WRONG moves.

All decision making AND management is probabilistic. Meaning, if I decide to have a coffee now --- it may not be tasty. But, I'll have it ANYWAY, because more often than not my coffee vending machine spews out garbage that is palatable.

You cant GUARANTEE things in decison making or management. That is NOT a luxury folks have when they have hundreds of families depending on their decisions in order to support salaries and incomes.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

MJ drafted June 1984.

JR Buys Bulls March 1985.

It was pretty hard to screw up with the goat. Sure he has done good things, I'm not sure how this became a JR debate. My points were exclusively around GarPax's performance. I don't think JR is really all that involved anymore to be honest. He gets in when he has to.

Because I have had this debate before with several posters and I was just taking the shortcut.

You cannot judge any FO in the Bulls without understanding the role that LT and Profit generation plays.

And that is an ownership directive. And that owner is Jerry. And as an owner, he is probably Top 2 in the NBA in the 30 year span that he has owned the franchise.

[Rerisen]

Something I haven't seen mentioned about Lowe's article:

There was much praise for Noah when he seemingly accepted his demotion to the bench without complaining, "for the good of the team." Now we read that Noah and others were pissed about Niko starting over him.

I found that line interesting too.

Looks like the team was not onboard with the FO/Fred collusion to elevate Mirotic's standing on the team. Obviously they are thinking about the future there as much as the present.

And I have often touched on the incongruity apparent with how the roster has a mix of 'win now' players and then this 2nd generation of upstarts who are already cleaning out the furniture because they know their era is the next one coming.

It makes for a difficult mix in chemistry and the locker room and to get everyone the same page. Because the secret is out that the FO is trying to play both sides at once as far as competing and preparing for the future, and the guys still here competing in the now are aware of this and potentially resentful.

[musiqsoulchild]

Jimmy basically ran into the public square and shouted the house is on fire.

He's wrong for shouting it there, as its not going to put it out, in fact it will just keep raging. He should have ran to the firehouse (the players and staff). Though sadly they already know it is too.

So mistake by Jimmy, but the biggest deal in it all is of course that... the house is on fire!

Except, when the fire department came --- they spoke to the owners of the place.

The building was set on fire (parts of it) in order to quickly raze it and re-build ( this offseason).

The owners had a wrecking crew already in place --- but some malcontents came in and created a fire in the vacant building.

Thats actually much closer to the truth. There is very little of value in that house. Thats whay Jimmy is kind of like "Why isnt ANYONE else seeing what I am seeing?". Its the other way around --- its Jimmy who isnt seeing what everyone else is seeing.

This is a team in transition. There's TyVek sheeting across the entire first floor of the house. It'll be complete by August, 2016 and Jimmy can move back into his palatial master suite afterwards.

I need to get off the fire analogy a minute here. I know what you are saying, but regardless if we want conveniently forget that the FO felt we had a championship core here (as reported by mouthpiece KC) and suddenly pretend this season is all about preparing a transition - it's still a big mistake to let your team culture go to crap.

Butler is trying to preserve that by wanting everyone to buy into the gameplan and play hard each and every night. That is something you should want for your team regardless if the current season isn't about winning it all, or if big changes are envisioned for the next seaon.

I swear I wrote something about how these minor scuffles/tussles will NOT impact team chemistry.

Its because of the culture of the organization. And the players that we will be getting rid of this offseason ( PAU.....hopefully Rose - fingers crossed)

We have a culture of winning. One year isnt going to flip that. This isnt Philly or the Knicks or the recent Lakers.

Winning IS PART of the BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL MODELS. We have to win significantly in the playoffs to get a high enough seeding to at least make the second round. And next season, the ECF's.

Thats PART of the dollar generation model....so there is franchise buy in to the winning habit and the winning culture.

[musiqsoulchild]

Something I haven't seen mentioned about Lowe's article:

There was much praise for Noah when he seemingly accepted his demotion to the bench without complaining, "for the good of the team." Now we read that Noah and others were pissed about Niko starting over him.

I found that line interesting too.

Looks like the team was not onboard with the FO/Fred collusion to elevate Mirotic's standing on the team. Obviously they are thinking about the future there as much as the present.

And I have often touched on the incongruity apparent with how the roster has a mix of 'win now' players and then this 2nd generation of upstarts who are already cleaning out the furniture because they know their era is the next one coming.

It makes for a difficult mix in chemistry and the locker room and to get everyone the same page. Because its almost like the secret is out that the FO is trying to play both sides at once as far as competing and preparing for the future, and the guys still here competing in the now are aware of this and potentially resentful.

How about collaboration? Or idea?

Thats what makes it hard .....that every action is given a shade of meaning that is actually non-existent.

[Rerisen]

I swear I wrote something about how these minor scuffles/tussles will NOT impact team chemistry.

Its because of the culture of the organization. And the players that we will be getting rid of this offseason ( PAU.....hopefully Rose - fingers crossed)

We have a culture of winning. One year isnt going to flip that. This isnt Philly or the Knicks or the recent Lakers.

Winning IS PART of the BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL MODELS. We have to win significantly in the playoffs to get a high enough seeding to at least make the second round. And next season, the ECF's.

Thats PART of the dollar generation model....so there is franchise buy in to the winning habit and the winning culture.

Of course there is desire to have a winning culture, but intention is not always reality.

And right now reality is the culture is bad.

This type of season is risking Fred's future authority of all these young players forming critical first impressions. And by extension, potentially other players that might join the team.

The ideal is for Fred to have a super successful first season, as Thibs did, not just for the sake of this year, but to establish this guy is a respectful quality coach. Which will help him lead and get buy in for future seasons.

If this year ends in messy turmoil in the locker room and effort wise, regardless if we eek into the 2nd round, then he risks getting a rep like Vinny Del Negro. That's not good for the long term plan.

[TheStig]

It was a **** franchise before Jerry brought it in 1984 (I think).

Reinsdorf has made WAY more right moves than he has WRONG moves.

All decision making AND management is probabilistic. Meaning, if I decide to have a coffee now --- it may not be tasty. But, I'll have it ANYWAY, because more often than not my coffee vending machine spews out garbage that is palatable.

You cant GUARANTEE things in decison making or management. That is NOT a luxury folks have when they have hundreds of families depending on their decisions in order to support salaries and incomes.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

MJ drafted June 1984.

JR Buys Bulls March 1985.

It was pretty hard to screw up with the goat. Sure he has done good things, I'm not sure how this became a JR debate. My points were exclusively around GarPax's performance. I don't think JR is really all that involved anymore to be honest. He gets in when he has to.

Because I have had this debate before with several posters and I was just taking the shortcut.

You cannot judge any FO in the Bulls without understanding the role that LT and Profit generation plays.

And that is an ownership directive. And that owner is Jerry. And as an owner, he is probably Top 2 in the NBA in the 30 year span that he has owned the franchise.

You keeping changing the target, this is why I don't enjoy speaking with you here.

The Cavs and Thunder both crack the top half of NBA teams. Do you think thats because of Dan Gilbert's amazing manipulation of the Clevland market or Bron.

I'm sure JR has made good decisions along the way but lets not make him into Jerry Buss here. I'm not calling him a bad owner, I'm just not putting him in that elite tier. He won his rings under 1 MJ/Pip pairing.

Buss essentially had 3-4 separate groups of championships over that time.

[Rerisen]

How about collaboration? Or idea?

Thats what makes it hard .....that every action is given a shade of meaning that is actually non-existent.

That meaning IS existent, because the FO does not want the vets to know that they are as or more interested in the future as now.

But its obvious that they do now know, and its just another ingredient in the toxic stew that is creating apathy on this team.

This is the almost invariable contradiction and result of a sitting on the fence approach.

I have said repeatedly and its a common sense truth, if you try to do both things at once in the NBA, both will suffer at less than maximum success.

At first it hits you simply on your on court balance and results, but now its seeped into hitting our chemistry.

[musiqsoulchild]

Where did he say Hoiberg was doing a bad job or was not a good coach? He just wanted everyone to be pushed harder.

It's not about toppling the FO. Its not about their public humiliation. They're not some evil 3rd world regime. IIt's like in any business, you have to work on your weaknesses and develop them. You can't sit on your previous achievements (which aren't really that good to begin with) and continue down the same path.

GarPax clearly have to work on acquiring top tier talent, trades and relationships with their subordinates (coaches, assistants and players). I just want to hold them accountable for that and see it improve. My problem with them is that they have no entrenched themselves in a position that it won't happen. It's like some old family business owner that says I've been selling x since 1962 this way and then doesn't understand why Walmart wiped him out.

You're fundamental view is that you like a consistently good product but not great. I like the highs and will suffer through the lows for a great product. I'd rather have the dynasty Bulls and then the 8 years after than 10 years of this and hoping Bron isn't there for us at the end of our playoff runs every year.

I dont fault you for saying that ---- thats EXACTLY what a fan should say.

No good business will apply that model though.

The ones that do are those that are positioning themselves to be sold or to be leveraged. That is actually terrible business --- its so bad for the families of employees that work for a business.

A good business should provide NOT only a service/product that people will buy but also take care of its employees. We have consistently done that by maintaining constant success.

Do you own shares of the Bulls? Because I'm fairly sure we are both just fans. The Business model doesn't really factor into it from a fans perspective.

I dont own shares of the Bulls - I'll need to be an owner and I dont have that kind of moolah. If I did, I would not invest there - I'd invest in the Pistons. A depressed economy on its way back up --- people tend to spend more in the disposable income. So, I can buy in cheap and watch the shares balloon.

The BUSINESS model ABSOLUTELY factors into the fan perspective.

From a strict logic perspective:

A consistently good team needs FEWER things to fall in place to become a GREAT team than a High-Low model team needs to achieve intermittent greatness.

This is VERIFIABLY true - even in Chicago's case. We were already a consistently good team when Rose joined us and we quickly rocketed to an elite team. This was true for 2 seasons.

And then after ACL we settled back into being a consistently good team....see how FEW factors are needed to make the leap from consistently good to being Elite?

[Ctownbulls]

I dont fault you for saying that ---- thats EXACTLY what a fan should say.

No good business will apply that model though.

The ones that do are those that are positioning themselves to be sold or to be leveraged. That is actually terrible business --- its so bad for the families of employees that work for a business.

A good business should provide NOT only a service/product that people will buy but also take care of its employees. We have consistently done that by maintaining constant success.

Do you own shares of the Bulls? Because I'm fairly sure we are both just fans. The Business model doesn't really factor into it from a fans perspective.

I dont own shares of the Bulls - I'll need to be an owner and I dont have that kind of moolah. If I did, I would not invest there - I'd invest in the Pistons. A depressed economy on its way back up --- people tend to spend more in the disposable income. So, I can buy in cheap and watch the shares balloon.

The BUSINESS model ABSOLUTELY factors into the fan perspective.

From a strict logic perspective:

A consistently good team needs FEWER things to fall in place to become a GREAT team than a High-Low model team needs to achieve intermittent greatness.

This is VERIFIABLY true - even in Chicago's case. We were already a consistently good team when Rose joined us and we quickly rocketed to an elite team. This was true for 2 seasons.

And then after ACL we settled back into being a consistently good team....see how FEW factors are needed to make the leap from consistently good to being Elite?

The factor was a 1.7% luck job to grab an elite superstar. There might be few factors involved but it doesn't make it easy.

[TimHonks]

I love jimmy but he is a #2 on a really good team.